Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[JLB]

You're not understanding the OP, even after I gave a quick explanation. Why is that?

The OP needs no “explanation” from you.

It’s very simple.

There are no inherint contradictions about faith alone. God says it's dead to Him, and so it is. People can argue with God about what is alive or dead to Him, based on what they believe it is to them, but it's still true without contradiction, that faith without works, being alone is dead.

I honestly don’t know how anyone can possibly not understand what James so plainly says here in verse 17, and then illustrates with an example from Abraham’s life.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17


My only point has been to clarify that the works James is referring to is obedience; the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26

 

[JLB]

Faith without actions is not faith at all...

Is a body without a spirit, somehow not a body at all.

It’s still a body, it’s just dead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don’t see where “no faith” is mentioned.

I don't see where genuine faith is mentioned. Just a claim to having faith.

 

[JLB]

I don't see where genuine faith is mentioned. Just a claim to having faith.

Faith is mentioned in the scripture I posted.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

Plainly says that faith, (the only faith there is, that we receive from God, the only way it comes) by itself if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do we do to get faith?

Hear the word of God. Romans 10:17

What did Abraham do to get God to command him to offer his son Isaac on the altar?

Nothing.

We don't do something to get God to command us to do something.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

A claim to having faith if it is by itself, not having works, is dead faith. James 2:14

Faith Jethro, faith comes from God.

Where does a claim to having faith come from?

 

[onlysaved]

Is a body without a spirit, somehow not a body at all.

It’s still a body, it’s just dead.

Apples and oranges. Again too literal.
James was talking about people who didn't have real trusting obedient faith in Christ.

 

[Free]

The OP needs no “explanation” from you.

It’s very simple.

I agree, it is simple, yet some don't seem to understand it. The OP thinks that "faith alone," as is commonly taught, literally means "only faith is ever needed and never works, even after justification" (of course, the OP does not understand what justification means). That is the topic of this thread.

What it actually means: it's short for "justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone." Period. And while there may be some who literally do teach that we never need to do good works after justification, they would be few and fringe.

No one currently in the discussion denies that faith without works is dead and everyone agrees that works are evidence of having been justified (saved; declared righteous). Yet, you keep arguing against them while claiming to agree with them.

 

[JLB]

A claim to having faith if it is by itself, not having works, is dead faith. James 2:14


Where does a claim to having faith come from?

Sounds like word salad to me.

The words are clear, no matter how you try and rearrange them it always will say the same thing.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

 

[JLB]

Apples and oranges. Again too literal.
James was talking about people who didn't have real trusting obedient faith in Christ.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

James just says faith. Faith by itself is dead.

 

[JLB]

I agree, it is simple, yet some don't seem to understand it.

I’m glad we can agree.

Some people just can’t seem to understand plain clear words.

I guess that’s why he repeated himself.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

 

[Free]

I’m glad we can agree.

Some people just can’t seem to understand plain clear words.

I guess that’s why he repeated himself.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Which has really nothing to do with the actual topic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The words are clear, no matter how you try and rearrange them it always will say the same thing.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

You keep ignoring that 'faith' is qualified by James as being a claim to have faith. Those are clear words that you are not acknowledging.

A claim to have faith may be false, or it may not be false. A claim to have faith that does not have works with it is a false claim of having faith. The absence of works shows it to be false. That person does not have faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James was talking about people who didn't have real trusting obedient faith in Christ.

Like the demons.

 

[onlysaved]

You keep ignoring that 'faith' is qualified by James as being a claim to have faith. Those are clear words that you are not acknowledging.

A claim to have faith may be false, or it may not be false. A claim to have faith that does not have works with it is a false claim of having faith. The absence of works shows it to be false. That person does not have faith.

Hmmmm. I think we need to be very careful in determining what others people's works are or are not.
In this situation James is addressing people who have no works, i always took that as they were boasting about not having works but claiming faith, maybe that's wrong but it doesn't matter. People's works may not always be visible to us.
We are not mass manufactured and we all have different struggles. Overcoming and addiction is a desperate struggle to be obedient and is much of a good work as feeding the poor but may not be apparent from the outside.
My only point is we should never assume another has no works because we cannot see them.

Nothing about James's comments gives us license to judge someone else based on our perception of their faith. We should however used them to examine ourselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Teaching justification is only by faith alone, is teaching against ever having faith with works, lest faith not be alone, having works.

Uh, no.

6What matters (towards justification-see context) is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6

The same person who said that faith justifies apart from works (Romans 4:6) said that faith will be expressed in the keeping of the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself', thus fulfilling the law. Faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31).

The faith that justifies apart from works will indeed have works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In this situation James is addressing people who have no works, i always took that as they were boasting about not having works but claiming faith

Or at the very least, using faith as an excuse to not have works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Overcoming and addiction is a desperate struggle to be obedient and is much of a good work as feeding the poor but may not be apparent from the outside.

This is why the fruit of the Spirit is actually the way we discern the true believer from the false. When we see the fruit of the Spirit in someone we see the genuineness of their faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit. Very hard to fake. The Pharisees looked good on the outside, but it was what was inside - greed, self-indulgence, etc. - that revealed who and what they really were.

25Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

27Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of impurity. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to be righteous, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Matthew 23:25,27-28

When you see what's on the inside of a person, that's when you know who you're dealing with.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed.


Agreed. There is a problem spiritually if someone doesn't want to obey their Lord and King either out of love or out of obedience.

Agreed.

According to Scripture, that I can see, there is no such thing as "ongoing justification;" it is only a one-time, past event. So, I don't know how the CC came to believe such an idea. It is only sanctification that is both a one-time event and an ongoing process, but that happens only after one is declared righteous.

THEY call it on-going justification.
WE call it sanctification.
Same thing.

Yes, it causes some problems because it seems that some don't want to acknowledge that it has multiple meanings. We know this even in English: JUSTIFICATION.

I DO believe the meaning is important, and I brought this up at some point.
I looked up your link for the meaning YOU posted above:
1
a
: the act or an instance of justifying something : VINDICATION
arguments offered in justification of their choice

b
: an acceptable reason for doing something : something that justifies an act or way of behaving
could provide no justification for his decision


2
: the act, process, or state of being justified by God (see JUSTIFY sense 2a)

I THINK I had asked you which definition you agree with:
1a: would be God DECLARING us just.
2: would be the PROCESS of being justified.

I believe James 2:24 is speaking to the process.
We are INITIALLY justified...but we must also be sanctified...this is ON-GOING,
as def 2 above states about justification.

I believe some of the confusion comes from the two terms,,,,
which should NOT confuse what God wants from us:

Repentance.....turning around, going the other way (toward God from satan).
Transformation....a conversion, a change.

Call it what you will....I think the nuance is found here, in the definitions and I'm just not up to getting
into it.

Yes, which I take to mean that Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac is evidence of the righteousness he already had. We must keep in mind that the whole context in James is "I'll show you my faith by my works." That means it is about evidence of faith, which is seen by one's works. We also know that Abraham was declared righteous based on believing the promises of God, which was by faith alone, in Gen. 15:6. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was about 20 years later, in Gen. 22.

Here we disagree and we will never agree.
I don't believe James means THE EVIDENCE OF...
I believe he means our SANCTF but it using the word JUSTF.....

I agree that he's saying I'LL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY MY WORKS....
But evidence to WHO??
God knows everything about us and does not require evidence.
I believe James is stating that our works show our faith,,,yes...but
without works we do not have faith....so faith MUST HAVE works.

I hadn't heard that.

If I could find the YouTube convo, I'll link it in a PM.

Although Paul mentions the Law, it would, by extension, include all works, as he wrote to Titus:

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

I agree. In Romans Paul is writing also the the Gentiles, but basically Romans if for the Jews.
In Titus he' addressing Gentiles where Titus lived and preached/taught so, of course, they wouldn't be familiar with the works of THE LAW, but with Good works...leading to behavior, transformation.

It just goes back to the teaching that works do not save us...
but, indeed, good works are expected from the saved.

Titus 1:7-8 NASB
7For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

The sound doctrine, also referred to as THE FAITH (verse 13),
is the doctrine of both faith AND good works.

THE FAITH just refers to what was taught,
as opposed to the faith held by believers.

Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people (ESV)

Agreed. Please note verse 8: MAY BE ABLE TO DEVOTE THEMSELVES TO GOOD WORKS.
Yes. Paul spoke of good works in each one of his letters.

Which is why we cannot separate faith from works.
This might be the nuance. No separation.
EXCEPT......we need faith FIRST in order to make the WORKS be of any value.

 

[GodsGrace]

If Reformed theology taught faith alone and that works were never needed, they sure don't teach that now. As far as I can tell, they have always taught that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Not here to discuss reformed theology.
However, M. Luther did teach SOLA FIDE.
Literally, SOLA FIDE.
Faith Alone,,,by itself, with nothing else added.

This is why I had mentioned that even John Calvin stated that faith alone must also have LOVE...
which immediately refutes faith alone.

But this is another topic.

It's a formatting error with the site. It's happened a few times now when I quote someone who has provided a link, the link pops outside of the quote and becomes a part of my response.

LOL
It's happened to me too.
Something about the site...it didn't used to happen before.
Not a big problem which is why I didn't mention it.

Then they're doing the very thing James is talking about:

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (ESV)

They have a dead faith and are living in disobedience to Christ. As such, they can have no part in him.

Agreed.

Yes, there are big differences in the meanings, but I don't think meaning 2 is moot. It is exactly what James is talking about, as his context is about exactly that--"I'll show you my faith by my works." It's probably the most used sense in modern contexts. In the eyes of men, and even to ourselves, our works are evidence that we have been declared righteous. Of course, James's main point is over against those who claim to only have faith, as an excuse for not helping those in need.

Already replied to this.
I don't agree that James means THE EVIDENCE,,,,
but we seem to agree on the rest.

To clarify....evidence for who?
Man?
I don't think James cares what men think in this regard.
I believe he's thinking here of what GOD thinks in regard to the person with or without the works.

Meaning 3 is "to be declared righteous," the forensic meaning, not meaning 2. Meaning 2 is simply "evidence of" or "vindication" or "to show."

Meaning 1 is difficult because it all depends on what is meant by "render." As far as English goes, it has a number of meanings: RENDER. It could be "to make," "to give," or, as Strong's states, to "show or regard as."

I don't agree with Strong's. We put too much trust in strong's.
To RENDER means TO MAKE.
Which goes to my question:
ARE WE JUST DECLARED JUST...
OR
ARE WE MADE JUST?

Now THIS is the question we should be addressing.

Which meaning depends on the context. As I've stated, Paul clearly most often uses meaning 3--declared righteous--even when speaking of Abraham being justified by faith. James uses meaning 2, to show that works are evidence of one's saving faith.

I agree that Paul mostly uses def 1. I also believe Paul is speaking of JUSTF that saves....because then he speaks of good works in every letter.
Do not agree that James is using def 3...the evidence of. (explained already).