Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

No. Very true.

Because Romans 11:20 is speaking about a totally different idea.
It's unfortunate Paul wrote Romans the way he did.

In Romans 11:20 Paul was addressing THE JEWS
who were the ORIGINAL BRANCHES.

But they were cut off because they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah....

But you said the branches were believing branches in any parable about branches:

There's no doubt about John 15 speaking of a true believer . or any parable about branches.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why don't you please explain about the tares and the wheat....

You insist that there can only be believers in the vine, so the branches that are cut out have to be believers, yet there are tares (sons of the evil one) in the kingdom of heaven:

38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom (the kingdom of heaven-vs.24) every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. Matthew 13:38-41

So, if there are 'sons of the evil one' in the kingdom of heaven, why can't there be unbelieving branches in the vine?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Second thing I would say here is that the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

Yes, you and I know what someone means when they say justification is by faith alone. But there are those who don't and instantly think that contradicts James' 'not by faith alone' argument.

 

[JLB]

Because those who practice such things are unbelievers. Believers don't practice such things.

8The one who practices sin is of the devil

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin

1 John 3:8,9

Why would Paul exhort “unbelievers” to walk in the Spirit?

Paul is teaching the church at Galatia and us that we must walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the flesh.

• I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The same Christians whom Paul exhorted to walk according to the Spirit is the same Christians that he warned not to walk according to the flesh and thereby practicing the works of the flesh.

He plainly says that the Spirit is against the flesh. Referring to people with the Holy Spirit in them.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


He taught the church in Rome and Corinth and Ephesus the same thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

The unfruitful branches are the unbelievers. There is no such thing as an unfruitful believer:

According to John 15:1-6 Jesus does not agree with you.

I say again:
JESUS does not agree with YOU.

You have made your own religion.
The NT does not teach what you teach.

JESUS stated, more than once, that an unfruitful BRANCH will be cut off.

Luke 13:6-9 NASB
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without * finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next * year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'

Jesus is NOT referring to non-believers.
Non-believers are not required to do good works/deeds.
Only believers are required to do good works.
This is known as being fruitful in the Kingdom of God.
If we are not fruitful,,,we are cut down.

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:9

You get sin mixed up with good works.
1 John 3:9
OF COURSE we're not supposed to practice sin.

It is not enough to empty the house of evil spirits, since they could return two-fold.
The house must be FILLED WITH GOOD....
Good is good works.

Luke 11:24-26 NASB
24 "When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
25 "And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order.
26 "Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first."

Only unbelievers are unfruitful. A true believer would have to go back to unbelief, assuming that's possible, to be unfruitful. Then they would be cut out of the vine.


And what I see is branches in the vine that are unbelievers. Their unfruitfulness, and the fact that they don't have the life giving sap of the vine in them being the evidence of their unbelief. They are cut out, not the living branches. Living branches are trimmed back, not cut out.


Yes they are, until they are cut off. Romans 11:20

20They were broken off because of unbelief


Due to unbelief.

Explained J.
You're reading into scripture what is not there.

Romans 11:20 is for UNBELIEVING JEWS.

Those ATTACHED TO THE VINE,,,are attached to Christ.

Yes, but only when it is dead and not being nourished by the vine. No branch being nourished by the vine is cut out. Cut back, perhaps, but not cut out.

Please read John 15:1-6 again, especially verses 1 and 2.

THOSE PRODUCING WORKS/FRUIT ARE CUT BACK so that they could produce even more.
THOSE THAT ARE NOT PRODUCING WORKS/FRUIT are cut off.

I agree, but not for the purpose of justification. That is where our disagreement lies. No one has to do works in order to be justified (made righteous). That happens through the forgiveness of sin, received by faith, apart from works.

Seems you cannot get through justification.

Paul stated this:
Philippians 2:12
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The above is AFTER justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, because the evidence of your life prevents them from disputing it.

19...so that every mouth may be silenced... Romans 3:19

Why NO J?
It's what YOU stated.

 

[GodsGrace]

Both.

Sanctification in it's two most fundamental meanings means to 'set apart as holy' and 'make clean'. Sanctification is like when mom buys a set of fine china plates. She sets them aside reserving them for a special purpose - holidays and special occasions. She doesn't do that over and over again. It's only necessary to set them aside one time. But there may be a process of training the kids to quit using them for after-school chili dogs and so they are in a continual process of being made clean. The author of Hebrews refers to this completed sanctification, and the process of sanctification in this passage just four verses apart from each other:

10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:10,14

So when you and I believed and were saved, God cleaned us and set us apart for a holy purpose - one time, not needing to repeat that setting apart - and so we were sanctified one time for all time. But we are also in the process of being made clean from our habit of dirtying the clean vessels God set us apart to be. Jesus uses the analogy of having a bath and needing only to clean the feet:

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet...” John 13:10

I dislike analogies. They don't work well.

You posted Hebrews 10:10, 14 WE ARE BEING SANCTIFIED.

Correct.
We are working out our salvation.
We are following the teachings of Jesus.
We are being fruitful in the Kingdom of God.

And John 13:10 does not apply to this discussion because we STILL have to wash our feet.

 

[GodsGrace]

Our repentance cleanses the outer man - the perishable part of us. We do that. While the blood of Jesus by the Spirit of God cleanses the spirit of a man - the imperishable part of us. God does that.

23everything that can withstand the fire—must be put through the fire, and it will be clean. But it must still be purified with the water of purification. And everything that cannot withstand the fire must pass through the water. Numbers 31:22-23

The fire of the Spirit cleanses and purifies the inner man. The water of our repentance cleans and purifies the outer man. Both must be done.

Eternally-grateful
for_his_glory

Does the inner man have any effect on the outer man?

Isn't the changing of our heart...the inner man....the entire point of the NT teachings?

God cares about the heart....our spirit.
When our spirit changes, so does our soul (the outer man).

2 Peter 1:1-12 NASB
1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Peter is speaking to believers.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

All of the above are works that Peter is telling BELIEVERS to do.

8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

IF those qualities are increasing we will not be USELESS nor UNFRUITFUL.

9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten * his purification from his former sins.

verse 9 DEFINITELY REFERRING TO A BELIEVER.

10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never * * stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
12 Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

These things are so important that Peter will continue to remind the BELIEVERS.
PETER IS NOT speaking about justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hopefully, by now you can see that we are not in disagreement that one must work after salvation. I've never disagreed with that. My disagreement with you is that we do not have to work after salvation to be justified. We are justified through God's forgiveness, all by itself, apart from our works of righteousness - one time, for all time when we first believe (Hebrews 10:14).

And I wanted to point out to you that the work that we must do after salvation that counts is the expression of our faith in the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Galatians 5:6), the summation of the law. Furthering the kingdom and doing other works of service after salvation is fine, but the most important 'work' you are to do, the most important 'rule' you are to follow after salvation, is be a new creation. A new creation that loves as God loves.

15What counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule - Galatians 6:15-16

A new creation must do good works.

And why are we still debating if you agree with me?
Why not just state that good works are necessary for believers and leave it at that?
Why must it be muddled up?
Why make it difficult for new believers to understand what Jesus expects of them?

 

[GodsGrace]

But you said the branches were believing branches in any parable about branches:

Excuse me J.
Romans 11:20 IS NOT A PARABLE.

It is PAUL, not Jesus, explaining to the JEWS why the unbelievers will be cut off, and many were cut off.
He is explaining to the JEWS that those of the promise are in the Kingdom, NOT those of the circumcision.

 

[GodsGrace]

You insist that there can only be believers in the vine, so the branches that are cut out have to be believers, yet there are tares (sons of the evil one) in the kingdom of heaven:

38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom (the kingdom of heaven-vs.24) every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. Matthew 13:38-41

So, if there are 'sons of the evil one' in the kingdom of heaven, why can't there be unbelieving branches in the vine?

Jethro,,,
I am NOT replying to the above.
I think you're too intelligent to not understand the difference between the tares and the wheat and
BRANCHES ATTACHED TO THE LIVING VINE which is Jesus.

Are the TARES attached to Jesus?
No.

 

[GodsGrace]

You insist that there can only be believers in the vine, so the branches that are cut out have to be believers, yet there are tares (sons of the evil one) in the kingdom of heaven:

38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom (the kingdom of heaven-vs.24) every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. Matthew 13:38-41

So, if there are 'sons of the evil one' in the kingdom of heaven, why can't there be unbelieving branches in the vine?

PS
There are no evil ones in the Kingdom of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say that the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

The Second thing I would say here is that the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

The Bible does not contain the precise, specific word "Trinity" but it is nonetheless a Bible teaching.
The Bible does not contain the precise, specific word "Rapture", but it is still a Bible teaching.

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.

Correct. Faith Alone is found only in James 2:24....and it's in a negative connotation.

Consider John 3:16 where God declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”

Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

IMHO, the Bible argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

James’s point in 2:18 is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do.

Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith plus nothing that we do to be saved.

However, it is clear that the Bibles teaches us that because we are saved, we will desire to do good works which validate the act of justification by faith.

To me, it is exactly like baptism. Water baptism does not save us but because we are saved, we should want then to identify with what Christ did for us.

Please explain this Rodger...since Jesus NEVER said to believe in Him ONLY and you would be saved.
Instead He taught what we must do to be saved.....

What does the word BELIEVE mean?
Is it a mental belief like also the demons have?
Or does it mean something more?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would Paul exhort “unbelievers” to walk in the Spirit?

Paul is teaching the church at Galatia and us that we must walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the flesh.

• I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

The same Christians whom Paul exhorted to walk according to the Spirit is the same Christians that he warned not to walk according to the flesh and thereby practicing the works of the flesh.

He plainly says that the Spirit is against the flesh. Referring to people with the Holy Spirit in them.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


He taught the church in Rome and Corinth and Ephesus the same thing.

The only way a person can be cut out of the vine/tree is to sin from a position of unbelief. The believer in the vine/tree who sins has the blood of Christ they believe and trust in always interceding on their behalf on the altar in heaven (Hebrews 7:25) thereby preventing their removal from the vine/tree. They stand by faith:

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:19-22


You have to stop condemning believers where no condemnation of believers exists:

31If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. Romans 8:31-34

Reserve your condemnation for the unbelieving. They are the ones who do not have the Ministry and Sacrifice of Christ ever interceding on their behalf in heaven and who get cut out of the vine/tree. The one who continues to believe in the Sacrifice of Christ has the continual forgiveness of God to cover all the errors and mistakes they commit as children of God growing up into the image and stature of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

PS
There are no evil ones in the Kingdom of God.

How can you stare right at the word of God that says there are evil ones in the kingdom of God and then say there is not?

38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:38-42

 

[GodsGrace]

How can you stare right at the word of God that says there are evil ones in the kingdom of God and then say there is not?

Let's see what the word of God states:
This is from your version:

Matthew 13:38-42

38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:38-42

Verse 38, 39: The field is THE WORLD.
The good seed are the sons of the Kingdom.
The weeds are the sons of satan.

The harvest is at THE END OF THE AGE, when both the tares and the wheat will be harvested.

Verse 40: AT THE END OF THE AGE, the weeds will be collected and burned.
The evil ones will be weeded out of the KINGDOM.

AT THIS TIME, the differentiating will be done.
At THE TIME OF THE JUDGING...OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Verse 38, 39 only states that the good seed are the SONS of the Kingdom....
It is not judgment time yet, and will not be until the Son of God sends out the angels and they will weed out the tares.

While in the field, in the world, both will grow together....just as it is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,,,
I am NOT replying to the above.
I think you're too intelligent to not understand the difference between the tares and the wheat and
BRANCHES ATTACHED TO THE LIVING VINE which is Jesus.

Are the TARES attached to Jesus?
No.

You need to understand dead branches being in Christ the same way you are to understand tares being in the kingdom of heaven. That’s the point.

You are in Christ by virtue of your faith. But if stop believing, assuming that’s possible, you will be a dead fruitless branch in the vine and you will be cut out. But you will never be cut out as long as you continue to have faith in Christ. You may be trimmed back to make you even more fruitful, but you will never be cut out of the vine. You stand by faith.

20 They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith Romans 11:20

 

[GodsGrace]

You need to understand dead branches being in Christ the same way you are to understand tares being in the kingdom of heaven. That’s the point.

Jethro,
There are no tares in the Kingdom of God.
Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God.
Matthew 4:16-17 NASB
16 "THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED."
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
The light came into the world.
John 1:4-5
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jesus is proclaiming the Kingdom on earth. The Kingdom of Heaven always existed.
Jesus taught how to be saved.
Jesus taught how to be members of the Kingdom of God on earth.
He spoke of the Kingdom on earth continually and explained what it was like.
The beatitudes has many teachings on this.

There are NO EVIL PERSONS in the Kingdom...
Not here in the earthly Kingdom of God...
and not in heaven.

You are in Christ by virtue of your faith. But if stop believing, assuming that’s possible, you will be a dead fruitless branch in the vine and you will be cut out. But you will never be cut out as long as you continue to have faith in Christ. You may be trimmed back to make you even more fruitful, but you will never be cut out of the vine. You stand by faith.

20 They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith Romans 11:20

As Jesus taught,,,we will be cut off if we are not fruitful.

I will not respond AGAIN to Romans 11:20.
Read Romans 9, 10 and 11 and see what Paul is speaking of.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A new creation must do good works.

And why are we still debating if you agree with me?
Why not just state that good works are necessary for believers and leave it at that?

We are debating because you think we are justified (made righteous) by the good works that Christians are to do after salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to John 15:1-6 Jesus does not agree with you.

I say again:
JESUS does not agree with YOU.

You have made your own religion.
The NT does not teach what you teach.

I showed you where the NT says believers can not be unfruitful, only unbelievers are unfruitful. Why do you not agree with 1 John 3:9-10?