What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Faith without works?

jeff77

jeff77

Member
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:14 (KJV)

I have heard a lot recently about faith in Christ is what saves us. In Sunday school we had a whole lesson on "saved by grace" and here on the forum there is definitely a lot of discussion about faith and about works. So what about faith requiring works to be saved? I know this is a fairly common topic and verse but what exactly are the works that faith in Christ requires?
 
First its going to take an active faith the kind of faith written in Hebrews

11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him..

I'll try and explain this from experience Jeff. Fall was coming the lawn would need another mowing before cold weather set in. I'd checked the weather report that said rain was expected overnight then a light break by morning only to start raining again that afternoon.. i knew this was going to be my only shot during that brief break.. one problem.. the grass was soaked. How as i going to mow ringing wet grass. I knew the Lord would make a way so with that in mind i prayed then i waited to see how he was going to dry out the grass. About 1/2 an hour later a light wind came up then the wind became stronger "much stronger" an hour later i rolled out into the yard in my wheel chair "the wheels were bone dry" and "so was the grass" Is that what you were talking about, i believed God i always believe him i know my redeemer liveth..

tob
 
jeff77 said:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:14 (KJV)

I have heard a lot recently about faith in Christ is what saves us. In Sunday school we had a whole lesson on "saved by grace" and here on the forum there is definitely a lot of discussion about faith and about works. So what about faith requiring works to be saved? I know this is a fairly common topic and verse but what exactly are the works that faith in Christ requires?
Click to expand...

Faith is manifest through works. You demonstrate that you have faith through your works. If there are no works, there is no faith, because the result of faith is works.
 
jeff77 said:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:14 (KJV)
Click to expand...
There is a definite article before the word “faith" in the Greek that is important. It is there for a reason. See, you know what I mean by "it" from the context. All the modern translations do not leave this definite article out:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (ESV)

So we see that James is NOT talking about salvific faith. He's clearly talking about said faith. The Greek grammar actually requires it, i'm told by the experts.

https://bible.org/illustration/james-214

That is, James’ question is, literally, “Can that faith save him?” This is obviously intended as a rhetorical question, with a negative answer. In the context, James is saying that a “profession of faith” is not enough to produce salvation, if that faith “have not works.”

And the example verses to follow in James show illustrations/examples of this said faith. And then contrast this said faith with real salvific faith (like the faith of Abraham).
 
Last edited:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:18-20

We are not saved by works, but our works show that we're saved. This is tough for people to separate. There are no works that save us before God, but they are a sign to unbelievers that there is something different about us.

James is simply saying there should be something in our life we should be able to point to as fruit of our faith, but make no mistake, we are not saved by any effort of our own.

Faith is for God, which transform us and produces works, which is for people.
 
The danger is in starting out in faith--believing in God's offer of forgiveness--but then not continuing in that faith as evidenced by not producing the expected and obligatoory works faith produces.

The author of Hebrews speaks about the danger of that here:

"7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:7-12 NIV)


Jesus talks about it here:

"35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes.Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready,because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:35-46 NIV)


James, also, is warning us to not be deceived and have a 'faith' that can not save--a faith that either never produced works of righteousness, or stopped doing so.

And there is a way to have works of righteousness without it being an attempt to justify oneself (make one righteous before God). Be full of the fruit of the Spirit through a robust relationship with God through the Holy Spirit.
 
Trees may put forth their green leaves but if they don't produce fruit what nourishment may be found?
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Trees may put forth their green leaves but if they don't produce fruit what nourishment may be found?
Click to expand...

James is a very searching Epistle. Basically, what doesn't behave like faith isn't true faith anyway. This in no way contradicts Paul's assertion to the Ephesians that salvation is 'not of works' (2.9). What James says about faith in isolation from works links in with his teaching on the tongue and the vanity of mere profession.

Blessings.
 
John 6:28-29:
"Then they ask him, what must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent".
 
allenwynne said:
John 6:28-29:
"Then they ask him, what must we do to do the works God requires? Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent".
Click to expand...

It requires a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart, and it's not a meritorious production of the flesh; it's not mere mental assent. Blessings.
 
farouk said:
A close reading of John 6 would lead to these conclusions, I think.
Click to expand...
I've been holding off on this.
I did not want to create a disturbance, but, here goes.
I don't have all the answers, I would like a better explanation.

John 6 says in verse 63 that the words Jesus has spoken is The Spirit and life.
Otherwise in the chapter, Jesus says in a couple of places that only the Father draws people to Jesus.
I can see how you would think that this is the Holy Spirit, but we know the Holy Spirit had yet to be given to us.
If it is the Father that draws us to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit must have a different role, if we do believe the three make up the Godhead.
It is faith in God that draws us to Jesus.

So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
Or is the Holy Spirit after the fact?
When I believed the word of God, I made a commitment to Jesus, and then I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

What role does the Holy Spirit have in receiving Christ?
I think that's a good question.
I think the Holy Spirit is more in keeping us in Christ rather than leading us to Christ.
 
allenwynne said:
I've been holding off on this.
I did not want to create a disturbance, but, here goes.
I don't have all the answers, I would like a better explanation.

John 6 says in verse 63 that the words Jesus has spoken is The Spirit and life.
Otherwise in the chapter, Jesus says in a couple of places that only the Father draws people to Jesus.
I can see how you would think that this is the Holy Spirit, but we know the Holy Spirit had yet to be given to us.
If it is the Father that draws us to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit must have a different role, if we do believe the three make up the Godhead.
It is faith in God that draws us to Jesus.

So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
Or is the Holy Spirit after the fact?
When I believed the word of God, I made a commitment to Jesus, and then I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

What role does the Holy Spirit have in receiving Christ?
I think that's a good question.
I think the Holy Spirit is more in keeping us in Christ rather than leading us to Christ.
Click to expand...

Jesus said He would draw? So I wonder, did the Father do the drawing before Jesus was lifted up or does He still do the drawing? If so, what does this verse mean?
Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

I think it is necessary for the Holy Spirit to revel these things to us. If we don't think we have sinned how would we realize we need a Savior and if we don't believe that Jesus is righteous, why would we believe that He could be a propitiation for our sin?
 
allenwynne said:
I've been holding off on this.
I did not want to create a disturbance, but, here goes.
I don't have all the answers, I would like a better explanation.

John 6 says in verse 63 that the words Jesus has spoken is The Spirit and life.
Otherwise in the chapter, Jesus says in a couple of places that only the Father draws people to Jesus.
I can see how you would think that this is the Holy Spirit, but we know the Holy Spirit had yet to be given to us.
If it is the Father that draws us to Jesus, then the Holy Spirit must have a different role, if we do believe the three make up the Godhead.
It is faith in God that draws us to Jesus.

So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
Or is the Holy Spirit after the fact?
When I believed the word of God, I made a commitment to Jesus, and then I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

What role does the Holy Spirit have in receiving Christ?
I think that's a good question.
I think the Holy Spirit is more in keeping us in Christ rather than leading us to Christ.
Click to expand...

This is a false conundrum because the Father is Jesus is God is the Son is the Holy Spirit. It's precisely why I'm baffled by the idea that there are three different gods. God is ONE. Jesus is the same thing as God...he's just God as man.

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." -Isaiah 9:6

Jesus is the Father and the Son. I don't believe there is a Trinity and only a Trinity. Those are the aspects of God that are the key to much of our scriptures and are most commonly used, but they are not the only aspects of God that exist.
 
Tristan said:
Faith is manifest through works. You demonstrate that you have faith through your works. If there are no works, there is no faith, because the result of faith is works.
Click to expand...

That's very succinct, and right on target. I agree. If we have faith then we'll put into practice what we are to told to do in the Word. Jesus only did what he seen the father do, we are to do what Jesus did. If we do not, then we are but hearers of the Word and not doers.

On the trinity, I believe it goes, the Father draws us to Christ, Christ Saves us, the Holy Spirit leads us and teaches us. All are one but do have different functions so to speak.
 
allenwynne said:
So does it require a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart to believe in Jesus?
.
Click to expand...

John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

So He's around testifying. And:

Gal 3:3 You foolish Galatians! ... 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Humm? Rhetorical question. Sounds like you receive the Spirit by believing. Which is the way it happened to me.

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The spirit is a gift upon believing the gospel.
Why?

Ephesians 1:13. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

To a believer, the Holy Spirit is a seal, a mark.
 
chessman said:
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

So He's around testifying. And:

Gal 3:3 You foolish Galatians! ... 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Humm? Rhetorical question. Sounds like you receive the Spirit by believing. Which is the way it happened to me.

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The spirit is a gift upon believing the gospel.
Why?

Ephesians 1:13. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

To a believer, the Holy Spirit is a seal, a mark.
Click to expand...

I agree with this completely. First we choose to believe. Then we receive understanding through the Spirit. Right on, brother chessman! :)
 
Andrew Mason said:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:18-20

We are not saved by works, but our works show that we're saved. This is tough for people to separate. There are no works that save us before God, but they are a sign to unbelievers that there is something different about us.

James is simply saying there should be something in our life we should be able to point to as fruit of our faith, but make no mistake, we are not saved by any effort of our own.

Faith is for God, which transform us and produces works, which is for people.
Click to expand...

I like what you say here and it is sometimes tough for me to separate the two. To me it seems that faith in Christ would be shown by a passionate desire to tell others about him and how he can save. Another would be to put Christ above everything else.

Then there are things like loving your neighbor as you would yourself, being selfless, giving, slow to anger, humble and many more. Are these things considered works? Or deeds? I am pretty sure most people have done some of these things to some degree including people that do not have faith in Christ.

What you said about the works that are a sign to unbelievers that there is something different about us is what really stood out to me. I think that is the key to what scripture means by "works". Deeds like some that I mentioned in the paragraph above does not show how we are different because unbeliever's do these things too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top