Faith without works?

[veryberry]

Eternal security is a doctrine taught in the bible whether you believe it or not.
Losing salvation is also a doctrine taught in the bible whether you believe it or not.

Faith only salvation is a doctrine taught in the bible whether you believe it or not.
Faith/works salvation is a doctrine taught in the bible whether you believe it or not.

No scripture twisting is needed....

Question is what doctrine are you going to base your faith on?
2 Tim 2: 15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

USA, though the founding fathers were masons, was founded and ran on Christian principles. Sadly that cannot be said today. Most professing Christians beliefs are in vain today. Which means most professing Christians are in fact not Christians at all but fakes. So it shouldn't surprise you to see many leaving the faith that they never had.

USA as a nation is not standing strong to the faith and is leaving the faith. Like the Corinthians, USA is in trouble and needs to return to God. You can read 1&2 Corinthians and almost change the name to 1&2 United States. This country and many of the world is Laodicea(apostates).

 

[JLB]

Here is a website that is full of Christians who have turned away from God.

Very sad.

Very sobering.

http://www.ex-christian.net/


JLB

 

[veryberry]

Here is a website that is full of Christians who have turned away from God.

Very sad.

Very sobering.

http://www.ex-christian.net/


JLB

What makes you think these "ex-Christians" were actual Christians? because they called themselves Christians? 95% of churches today are a joke. They don't preach the true gospel, they don't preach about sin, hell, God's wrath. All they care about is your money, their popularity, etc..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here is a website that is full of Christians who have turned away from God.

Very sad.

Very sobering.

http://www.ex-christian.net/


JLB

So that's what happened to the old christianforums.net.

I wonder if it works as good for them as it did for us, lol.

 

[chessman]

So now you want to argue that to not 'stand firm', or not 'be established' in Christ does not mean 'not believing', but 'standing firm', and 'being established' means believing? Really?

.

I have no idea what you are asking here. Probably because you have misunderstood something and there's to many double negatives for me to follow you. But if your question had anything to do with a vain belief contrasting with a true/gifted belief, then yes, I think there are two different kinds of belief.

Let me help you:

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
...
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."
(Hebrews 10:35-39 NIV)

Let me help you. Read verse 34: You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

Hmm, lasting possesions? You think this authour played the lottery odds and just guessed these folks had lasting possesions better than earthly property? Those that DO NOT BELONG to destruction, that is.

the Bible plainly says to keep that which you started out with, warning us to not 'throw away' what secured the surety of the promise in the first place.

Hmm, so our confidence is what secures us? You sure that's not what rewards us? I kind of thought it was God that secured us. You got any self help tips on building up my confidence? Maybe even to Godlike confidence levels?

Actually, nevermind. I'll just stick with the One I place my confidence in now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Read verse 34: You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

Hmm, lasting possesions? You think this authour played the lottery odds and just guessed these folks had lasting possesions better than earthly property? Those that DO NOT BELONG to destruction, that is.

I see that you still simply do not understand the argument. You seem to be thinking that my argument is that you have no surety of salvation until you actually have it at the end of the age. That's not the argument.

As long as a person has faith--the confidence in Christ's blood they started out with--they really do indeed have the promise and guarantee of better and lasting possessions. But stop having faith and confidence in the blood of Christ and you no longer have the promise and guarantee of those better and lasting possessions. That's why Paul exhorts the churches to keep having faith. So they don't lose what has been promised to them through faith in Christ. I can't help but to think you see the argument as we do not have the promise and guarantee of those things. That's not what I'm saying at all.

Faith is like holding the winning lotto numbers. As long as you have those numbers you have what they guarantee. Who would point their finger at a lotto winner and suggest they do not have the guarantee of what the winning numbers says they have? But, who would suggest that the lotto winner doesn't have to have the numbers in his possession when he goes to collect the winnings? That's how faith in Christ works.

Hmm, so our confidence is what secures us? You sure that's not rewards us? I kind of thought it was God that secured us.

Yes, our confidence secures us in that our faith, our confidence in Christ, is what secures the work of Christ on our behalf. Just like a winning lotto ticket secures the winnings in a state lottery. But like a winning lotto ticket, you have to hang on to that which secured the work of Christ in the first place to lay claim of it at the end.


You're afraid to say your faith and confidence saves you, probably because you've been conditioned, whether you realize it or not, that even our faith and confidence in Christ is a part of the works that can not justify. Once again I ask you or anybody else to show me where my faith in Christ is included in the works that Paul says can not justify.

Paul says it is my faith and trust and confidence in the blood, not my good deeds, that forgives my sin and justifies me (makes me righteous) before God. So don't be afraid to acknowledge that it is your believing, your confidence in the blood of Christ that has made you righteous before God. Do that and all these popular doctrines in the church that revolve around this 'I'm saved and there's nothing I can do about it' thinking (OSAS, predetermined election, law abiding = works salvation) are shown to be the false doctrines that they really are.

 

[Barbarian]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is why Luther cut the Book of James from his Bible. He correctly concluded that it contradicted his new doctrine of "sola fide." He missed the part in Matthew where Jesus said that He would decide where you would spend eternity based on what you did for others.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is why Luther cut the Book of James from his Bible. He correctly concluded that it contradicted his new doctrine of "sola fide." He missed the part in Matthew where Jesus said that He would decide where you would spend eternity based on what you did for others.

I personally make a distinction between a present justification by faith, and a future justification by works. That's the "New Perspective" position, which has been made popular as of late by N.T. Wright.

Paul taught this doctrine.

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1 (ESV)

The present justification, that happened when we came to faith that made us to have peace with God.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:6-11(ESV)

Note that Paul teaches that in the final judgement, God will render to each one, NOT according to what they believe, but according to what they have done. My Protestant brothers fail to regard the mountain of Scriptures on this issue, where Sola Fide fails. It is Faith WORKING through Love, which is wrought by the Holy Spirit's transformative work in the life of the believer. You don't work to get into the good graces of God, you are in the good graces of God through faith, and the Holy Spirit then righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

It's important to note how Justification isn't entirely forensic in it's meaning, it largely is a doctrine for Paul's Justifcation of the inclusion of the Gentiles. Read the major sections about Justification, Galations 2-3 and Romans 3-4, you will find they are central to the issue of the Gentiles inclusion.

There is also the misunderstood usage of "works of the Law," in Paul's writing. I could go on and on.

 

[Barbarian]

Note that Paul teaches that in the final judgement, God will render to each one, NOT according to what they believe, but according to what they have done.

That's what Jesus says:
Matthew 25:31
And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[JLB]

.

I have no idea what you are asking here. Probably because you have misunderstood something and there's to many double negatives for me to follow you. But if your question had anything to do with a vain belief contrasting with a true/gifted belief, then yes, I think there are two different kinds of belief.



Let me help you. Read verse 34: You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

Hmm, lasting possesions? You think this authour played the lottery odds and just guessed these folks had lasting possesions better than earthly property? Those that DO NOT BELONG to destruction, that is.




Hmm, so our confidence is what secures us? You sure that's not what rewards us? I kind of thought it was God that secured us. You got any self help tips on building up my confidence? Maybe even to Godlike confidence levels?

Actually, nevermind. I'll just stick with the One I place my confidence in now.

You made the point of the argument by this phrase -

I'll just stick with the One I place my confidence in now.

This is what the Apostle Paul teaches.

It is your confidence that comes from faith in God.

Without the faith continuing, then the confidence does not continue.

You made his point.

 

[chessman]

You made the point of the argument by this phrase -

I'll just stick with the One I place my confidence in now.

This is what the Apostle Paul teaches.

It is your confidence that comes from faith in God.

Yes. It is what Paul teaches:

2 Thess 3:But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.

The Lord is faithful to not only establish us, but also to gaurd us.

It is, in fact, the Lord that directs a saved person's heart to the love of God.

There are more than two aspects of "faith without works" that we owe to God's work. That's why/how salvation makes sense. Now and in the future.

 

[JLB]

Yes. It is what Paul teaches:

2 Thess 3:But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.

The Lord is faithful to not only establish us, but also to gaurd us.

It is, in fact, the Lord that directs a saved person's heart to the love of God.

There are more than two aspects of "faith without works" that we owe to God's work. That's why/how salvation makes sense. Now and in the future.

Never the less, it is your confidence, and your faith in those promises that enable them to work for you.


JLB

 

[ivdavid]

It is Faith WORKING through Love, which is wrought by the Holy Spirit's transformative work in the life of the believer.

Amen.

You don't work to get into the good graces of God, you are in the good graces of God through faith, and the Holy Spirit then righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

Why are these two concepts being treated as completely independent events? Is there no direct connection at all between one's faith and one's walking by the Spirit - why can't I proclaim that one who has truly been justified through faith into the good graces of God, will be continually preserved in His graces by God Himself unto that believer's walking by His Spirit? The object of one's faith is God - which warrants believing His promises, that includes the promise to cause His people to walk in His foreordained ways unto willing and doing good works according to His pleasure [Eze 36:27,Eph 2:10,Php 2:13].

It's important to note how Justification isn't entirely forensic in it's meaning, it largely is a doctrine for Paul's Justifcation of the inclusion of the Gentiles. Read the major sections about Justification, Galations 2-3 and Romans 3-4, you will find they are central to the issue of the Gentiles inclusion.

The doctrine of justification has indeed played a central role in upholding the inclusion of the Gentiles - but I see it as more of an application of the doctrine than what the doctrine itself stands for - hence I fail to see how you can conclusively declare that it isn't entirely forensic in substance?

There is also the misunderstood usage of "works of the Law," in Paul's writing. I could go on and on.

Each denominational worldview holds the other's doctrine to be one of misunderstanding - the onus is on us to agree upon objective Scriptural verses to base our conclusions upon. Since Lev 18:5 is the law that paul refers to in these commonly 'misunderstood' passages, anyone who strives to uphold it is whom I discern to be doing the "works of the law". Have I misunderstood?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why are these two concepts being treated as completely independent events? Is there no direct connection at all between one's faith and one's walking by the Spirit - why can't I proclaim that one who has truly been justified through faith into the good graces of God, will be continually preserved in His graces by God Himself unto that believer's walking by His Spirit? The object of one's faith is God - which warrants believing His promises, that includes the promise to cause His people to walk in His foreordained ways unto willing and doing good works according to His pleasure [Eze 36:27,Eph 2:10,Php 2:13].

I wouldn't necessarily call them "separate events," but rather put it in terms such as a story. It's all apart of the same story, but they do happen at different parts of that story, but the theme of the story never changes... which is grace.

The doctrine of justification has indeed played a central role in upholding the inclusion of the Gentiles - but I see it as more of an application of the doctrine than what the doctrine itself stands for - hence I fail to see how you can conclusively declare that it isn't entirely forensic in substance?

It's about the discoveries of modern Biblical scholarship, with regards to the meaning of the term, Dikaiosyne Theou (The Righteousness of God). That in addition to the usage of the term regarding a forensic meaning, it also strongly has to do with the idea of Covenant membership. Paul isn't just arguing that people are just before a holy God, he is arguing that Gentiles, and not just Jews are apart of his people.

Look to the famous text on justification in Romans 3..

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Romans 3:28 (ESV)

What is Paul's point? Well, he tells us that in the next verse.

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, Romans 3:29 (ESV)

Every major discussion on justification, deals primarily with the inclusion of the Gentiles. It has to be held within this framework, or we will get stuck in the debates of the times of the reformation.

Each denominational worldview holds the other's doctrine to be one of misunderstanding

This isn't a denominational difference, this is about discoveries Biblical scholarship have made, with how the phrase, "works of the law," and how it was actually used at the time of Paul.

the onus is on us to agree upon objective Scriptural verses to base our conclusions upon. Since Lev 18:5 is the law that paul refers to in these commonly 'misunderstood' passages, anyone who strives to uphold it is whom I discern to be doing the "works of the law". Have I misunderstood?

The "works of the law" isn't just the idea of obeying God's commands, and trying to earn your salvation. It's about what kind of works distinguish a people as being the people of God. The holiness codes, the feasts, the rituals (circumcision), etc. are what distinguished the the people at Paul's time as being who they thought was the people of God. Which is why Paul argues so strongly against circumcision. All of those laws were meant to be a guardian, a baby sitter of sorts, to keep Israel in line. The promise was always through faith, and now it is most realized through the reality that the people of God are now those who have faith in the Messiah, those who are in Christ. Western individualism has divorced us from the fact that it is us collectively, the Church, who Jesus came to save. The people of God called out from the world, to be a people for his possession. It's not simply about a personal salvation, it's about entrance into a community.. God's community and mission of restoring humanity and creation.

Rant over.

 

[JohnD]

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:14 (KJV)

I have heard a lot recently about faith in Christ is what saves us. In Sunday school we had a whole lesson on "saved by grace" and here on the forum there is definitely a lot of discussion about faith and about works. So what about faith requiring works to be saved? I know this is a fairly common topic and verse but what exactly are the works that faith in Christ requires?

When you compare James the Elder with the Apostle Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10), you see the two are saying the same thing. True faith (real faith) produces fruit and is evident.

Our salvation is not just an exit strategy, nor eternal fire insurance... it is a relationship between God and each one of us. It is who we are. It is what we will become.