Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[GodsGrace]

... and this is NOT a common theme found in scripture, but a common theme claimed by people.

You're saying so does not make it so.

Salvation by choice is a common theme in scripture.
Please explain why Jesus had to come to earth to proclaim the good news if our choice had nothing to do with our salvation?

WHY did Jesus have to die on the cross if it is GOD that chooses who will be saved? He could have saved them sans Jesus' sacrifice....which was for the purpose of offering salvation to all.

Please explain John 3:3, 5
and John 8:31
and John 11:25-26
and John 12:32
and John 12:35-36
and John 14:21, 23

and I've always found this verse interesting:
John 13:8

All of the above show how it is our choice to be saved.

Salvation by choice is THE theme in the N.T.

Please post scripture that shows it is not, if possible.....

 

[JLB]

Who is stripping verses from their context?

2 Peter 3:5-10
5They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.
6Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
7And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

Peter is talking about the end of the world,,,as I stated in my previous post.

God already ended the world once, with a mighty flood, and He will do this again at some time in the future, this time with fire.


8But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.

Here Peter is speaking to other Christians,,,telling them that we cannot know when Jesus will return because our time is different.

9The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

Here Peter is still speaking to Christians.
He is telling them that God is being patient for the sake of the scoffers in verse 3.

Christians are ALREADY SAVED and do not NEED TO REPENT AGAIN.

So WHO is the everyone that God is waiting to repent?
Again,,,the scoffers in verse 3.


10But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.a

Please see verse 15-16 when Peter tells the Christians that God is waiting so that the message of the gospel could be disseminated to offer salvation to others.

Christians already know the good news...
it is for the UNSAVED.

THE "ALL" IN PETER 3:9 IS NOT REFERRING TO CHRISTIANS...
BUT TO ALL WHO WILL ACCEPT THE GOSPEL WHEN THEY HEAR IT,,AS IN VERSES 15-16.

Yes, please notice the context of 2 Peter 3:9

I find this to be a common practice among Calvinist’s, who tend to spin the narrative to their belief, rather than allow the scripture and its context to define itself, who also tend to lean on the words and terms of Calvinism, as well as, redefine what biblical words and terms mean.


Thank you for your work.




JLB

 

[JLB]

WHY did Jesus have to die on the cross if it is GOD that chooses who will be saved?

Their idea that they were taught, comes from the declaration of the Synod of Dort, which says...

1. God’s choice of those who will be saved is not conditioned by what people may or may not do, since it is God who will, in time, “grant faith in Christ and perseverance.”
2. On the cross, Jesus took upon himself the sins of those God has chosen to save, making full and permanent satisfaction for them.
3. The Reformed found the Remonstrants in agreement about the human inability, apart from God’s grace, to choose to believe in Christ and obey him. Since the Remonstrants’ fourth point didn’t seem consistent with this statement, however, the synod answered points three and four together.
4. If God decides to save someone by his grace, that person will not be able to say no.
5. When God chooses to save a person, that person will persevere in faith until the end. Unlike the Remonstrants, the Reformed believed there is enough in Scriptures to support this interpretation. In fact, the synod provided plenty of Scriptural references to this as well as the rest of its statements.

That’s why they reject John 3:16.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



They read this passage as —

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16




JLB

 

[JLB]

You used it incorrectly because “all” is related to “beloved” (2 Peter 3:8) and “you” (2 Peter 3:9) ... not ‘all men without exception’. It is a common error when stripping verses from their context.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11

All men here refers to “all men”, especially those who believe.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Very simple.


Judas was destined to rule with Christ, and the others, just as this scripture reveals.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


God’s foreknowledge of the choice Judas would make to betray Jesus was proclaimed through the prophets.


You make the mistake of thinking that when God predestines someone for a purpose, that automatically means they are saved and will remain saved not matter what.

This is what I mean by you are trying to force the idea that if a person is predestined because of God’s foreknowledge, he somehow has no choice if he is saved or not; has no ability to choose to either obey the Lord or fall away.


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ.

Judas followed Jesus for three and a half years as a disciple.

Judas was promoted to an Apostle.

Judas was sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:1-8


Judas then BECAME a traitor.


Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


Judas was the one thing; a follower of Jesus Christ.

He then became something else; a traitor




JLB

Great post....I agree fully.

It is not easy to reconcile God's sovereignty with man's free will...
it is just something we have to accept.

However, the fact that this is difficult to understand does not allow us to deter from the gospel message of the offer of salvation to all and teach instead that our desire to be saved is futile unless God chooses us with no input from us.

Judas had to betray Jesus so that the crucifixion would take place.
And yet, he had a free will choice to do so.

 

[JLB]

It is not easy to reconcile God's sovereignty with man's free will...

I hear you.

But I still don’t understand what “God’s Sovereignty” means.

I understand how people try to use the word.


Sovereign means ruler or Potentate.

God is the Sovereign; the King of kings and Lord of lords.


How do you define the word Sovereign?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Their idea that they were taught, comes from the declaration of the Synod of Dort, which says...

1. God’s choice of those who will be saved is not conditioned by what people may or may not do, since it is God who will, in time, “grant faith in Christ and perseverance.”
2. On the cross, Jesus took upon himself the sins of those God has chosen to save, making full and permanent satisfaction for them.
3. The Reformed found the Remonstrants in agreement about the human inability, apart from God’s grace, to choose to believe in Christ and obey him. Since the Remonstrants’ fourth point didn’t seem consistent with this statement, however, the synod answered points three and four together.
4. If God decides to save someone by his grace, that person will not be able to say no.
5. When God chooses to save a person, that person will persevere in faith until the end. Unlike the Remonstrants, the Reformed believed there is enough in Scriptures to support this interpretation. In fact, the synod provided plenty of Scriptural references to this as well as the rest of its statements.

That’s why they reject John 3:16.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



They read this passage as —

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16




JLB

Right.
John 3:16 is taken as a statement of fact for the already saved instead of an instruction on how to become saved.

If God chooses who will be saved....the sacrifice of Jesus becomes null and of no use.

The reason Jesus came to us in the flesh is specifically so that we could "see" God and understand Him better. Jesus was the revelation of God Father.

God wanted us to know Him so that we could better choose Him for our salvation. Other methods did not work very well...laws, prophets, sacrifices. Only a love that is developed for God will work to change our heart.

Jesus' sacrifice for us changes our heart.

His death is useless if GOD changes our heart....
Reformed doctrine has many problems with it and we should remember that all this new way of seeing the bible was specifically to devalue the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If we notice,,,the reformation taught doctrine that is no longer accepeted today in many Protestant churches. These churches accept the reformation but do not accept reformed teachings.

 

[atpollard]

Who is stripping verses from their context?

2 Peter 3:5-10
5They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water.
6Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood.
7And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.

Peter is talking about the end of the world,,,as I stated in my previous post.

God already ended the world once, with a mighty flood, and He will do this again at some time in the future, this time with fire.


8But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.

Here Peter is speaking to other Christians,,,telling them that we cannot know when Jesus will return because our time is different.

9The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

Here Peter is still speaking to Christians.
He is telling them that God is being patient for the sake of the scoffers in verse 3.

Christians are ALREADY SAVED and do not NEED TO REPENT AGAIN.

So WHO is the everyone that God is waiting to repent?
Again,,,the scoffers in verse 3.


10But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.a

Please see verse 15-16 when Peter tells the Christians that God is waiting so that the message of the gospel could be disseminated to offer salvation to others.

Christians already know the good news...
it is for the UNSAVED.

THE "ALL" IN PETER 3:9 IS NOT REFERRING TO CHRISTIANS...
BUT TO ALL WHO WILL ACCEPT THE GOSPEL WHEN THEY HEAR IT,,AS IN VERSES 15-16.

Yes, please notice the context of 2 Peter 3:9

... and here we are in an off-topic discussion on 2 Peter that has nothing to do with the OP.
I pass.

 

[atpollard]

Please explain John 3:3, 5
and John 8:31
and John 11:25-26
and John 12:32
and John 12:35-36
and John 14:21, 23

and I've always found this verse interesting:
John 13:8

All of the above show how it is our choice to be saved.

Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”

 

[atpollard]

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11

All men here refers to “all men”, especially those who believe.

JLB

1 Timothy 4 is not 2 Peter 3, so a verse in one is not the “context” for a verse in the other. I therefore fail to see your point about 2 Peter 3. (Or what either has to do with the OP, which is why I requested another topic to discuss the “context” of 2 Peter if that seemed important.)

 

[GodsGrace]

I hear you.

But I still don’t understand what “God’s Sovereignty” means.

I understand how people try to use the word.


Sovereign means ruler or Potentate.

God is the Sovereign; the King of kings and Lord of lords.


How do you define the word Sovereign?


JLB

I define it like you do.
Sovereign is like a worldly King.
He rules over all...whatever he says, goes.
He makes the rules, he can nullify them...
as -- he can seal an order and he can unseal it.

God IS sovereign. It's unfortunate that the reformed have taken that word and tried to own it....but we can all agree that God is Sovereign...this does not take away our free will.


Sovereignty [N]
of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure ( Daniel 4:25 Daniel 4:35 ; Romans 9:15-23 ; 1 Timothy 6:15 ; Revelation 4:11 ).

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sovereignty/

 

[GodsGrace]

... and here we are in an off-topic discussion on 2 Peter that has nothing to do with the OP.
I pass.

I don't see the mods objecting.
Why are YOU?

Easier to object than to respond.
Great Modus Operandi.

But I WILL continue to post to you for those reading along.
It's good for those reading to know what the biblical truth is....

 

[GodsGrace]

Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”

I've posted many, many.
To which YOU do not reply.

You like to put persons on the defensive....
How about answering some posts in a serious manner?

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Timothy 4 is not 2 Peter 3, so a verse in one is not the “context” for a verse in the other. I therefore fail to see your point about 2 Peter 3. (Or what either has to do with the OP, which is why I requested another topic to discuss the “context” of 2 Peter if that seemed important.)

2 Peter 3:9 has everything to do with this thread.
FATE ... FREE WILL VS PREDESTINATION

Don't you think God wanting EVERYONE to be saved shows that He gave us FREE WILL to choose to be saved?

If you can,,,,you should answer posts instead of finding reasons why you should not.

As to 1 Timothy 4 is not 2 Peter 3....
Do you not know that when in a discussion a different verse could be posted as a double support for a teaching?

Surely you must know this....so?

 

[atpollard]

Don't you think God wanting EVERYONE to be saved shows that He gave us FREE WILL to choose to be saved?

Come on, I already responded to 2 Peter 3. The problem is that the whole section is Peter explaining why God has delayed Jesus return and the rapturing of the Saints (which is NOT the topic of free Will vs predestination, is it?)

You read into one part of one verse in this discourse on the rapture YOUR belief that God wants to save all men without exception (which, just to state the obvious, God has FAILED MISERABLY to do). There are many others (including me) that read that verse and see the common theme as Peter speaking to the BELOVED (which are all of the Saints and not all men without exception) so Peter claims that God is patient towards YOU (the BELOVED Saints) and does not wish ANY (BELOVED Saints) to perish, so God has delayed the rapture until all of the BELOVED saints have been saved. One common theme throughout having nothing to do with Predestination or Free Will and everything to do with the timing of the rapture and the love of God for His Children.

To your final point ... “Don't you think God wanting EVERYONE to be saved shows that He gave us FREE WILL to choose to be saved?”

What I THINK God wants is irrelevant. What I keep asking for and not getting is a verse that says “God gave us FREE WILL to choose to be saved?”

What God actually wrote is ...

• [Jhn 15:16 NASB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
• [Eph 2:5 NASB] 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, [GOD] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
• [Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

These verses all talk about what God did and who God chose. Where are the verses that say “man chose to be saved”?

2 Peter 3 certainly does not say that man chose to be saved by exercising his free will.

 

[atpollard]

I've posted many, many.
To which YOU do not reply.

Please provide the post #.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation by choice is a common theme in scripture.
Please explain why Jesus had to come to earth to proclaim the good news if our choice had nothing to do with our salvation?

WHY did Jesus have to die on the cross if it is GOD that chooses who will be saved? He could have saved them sans Jesus' sacrifice....which was for the purpose of offering salvation to all.

As you said ...

You're saying so does not make it so.

;)

Please explain John 3:3, 5
and John 8:31
and John 11:25-26
and John 12:32
and John 12:35-36
and John 14:21, 23

and I've always found this verse interesting:
John 13:8

All of the above show how it is our choice to be saved.

[Jhn 3:3, 5 NASB] 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ... 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

• What on earth would lead you to believe that a person chooses to be born? Tell me about how your free will helped you decided to be born physically so I can understand how your free Will helps you decide to be born spiritually.
• There is no mention of “choice” or “will” anywhere in these verses.
• Jesus stated a fact: “unless one is ... he cannot”. That fact applies equally well if one is born by choosing to be born, or if one is born by the will of God. Unless one is, then he cannot.

[Jhn 8:31 NASB] 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, [then] you are truly disciples of Mine;

• An interesting verse. It says that some believed him, but many that heard him did not believe. Jesus does not say that they exercised their free will and chose not to believe (even though God loves all of them and drew all of them to Jesus). What Jesus says is:
  • [Jhn 8:34, 37-38, 43-47 NASB] 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. ... 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak the things which I have seen with [My] Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from [your] father." ... 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? [It is] because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear [them,] because you are not of God."
• If the many did not believe BECAUSE they were not of God and were of the Devil, then is it not reasonable to at least ask if those that did believe might have believed BECAUSE they were of their father God? I think it is.
• As to the verse itself, there is a saying “the proof of the pudding is in the tasting”. It means that it is one thing for pudding to look good, but what really matters is does it taste good. In the same way, the proof of salvation is in the new life. It is one thing for someone to dress and talk like a Christian, but do they live a life that is changed from the world and seeks to honor and obey Christ. So I agree that if they (and we) continue in His word, then they (and we) are truly His disciples.

[Jhn 11:25-26 NASB] 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

• I am honestly not sure what you want me to say about this. Are you somehow under the opinion that I think that Christians do not believe in Jesus Christ?
• Jesus opens with a statement about everyone that believes in Jesus will be raised to eternal life (which is what I would call ASSURANCE of our eternal destiny, but that is another topic). Then Jesus asks Martha if she believes his statement about the resurrection and His power to raise those that believe in Him. At no point does Jesus actually ask her if she chooses to believe in him, he only asks if she believes “this” (the fact that he presented).
• Her response is interesting ...
  • [Jhn 11:27 NASB] 27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, [even] He who comes into the world."
• ... because it reminds me of another response:
  • [Mat 16:16-17 NASB] 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

[Jhn 12:32, 35-36 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." ... 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.

• v.32 Did Jesus draw all men without exception when He was lifted up? Were the Aztec living in North America drawn to Jesus in 33 AD when He died on the cross and 1400 years before the first European reached North America to tell them about Him?
• I think the verse is referring to the breaking of the Jewish monopoly on being the chosen people of God. When Jesus was crucified and resurrected, he did indeed draw people from many tribes and tongues and nations. An Ethiopian. Samaritans. The multitude gathered at Pentecost that carried the news home. Centurions. Gentiles from the surrounding regions. He also set in motion the Great Commission to reach all tribes, tongues and nations with the news. In any event, it says NOTHING about any choice. It only says Jesus will draw. That is Monergism (“God saves”, not “men help”).
• v.35-36 Jesus does tell them to believe that they may become sons of the Light. You clearly read that as they must choose to believe. Perhaps, but nothing in there actually says for them to choose. It is presented as what could just as easily be read as a command. Giving a command does not indicate that they have the power to obey without God’s help. They are also “saved” at this point (they already believe ... see John 3:18), so this is about sanctification not justification. They had already been “chosen” or “drawn” before that point.

[Jhn 13:8 NASB] 8 Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."

• So I have NO IDEA what this verse has to do with predestination, free will choice or salvation.
• Hey, I am a Baptist, so I see references to the Baptism of believers in everything (including this).
• Was it just an interesting verse you wanted to discuss?

[Jhn 14:21, 23 NASB] 21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." ... 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

• Should I copy-paste my response to John 8:31 about the Proof of the pudding?
• Nothin about choice to believe, but I agree that a child of God will try to copy his parent. No obedience indicates no family relationship.
• v.21 says “has my Commandments” which reminds me of a verse ...
  • [Heb 10:16 NASB] 16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," [He then says,]
  • Another verse about what GOD DOES, not what man chooses.

Salvation by choice is THE theme in the N.T.

So you keep saying. ;)

 

[JLB]

Please provide the post #.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11

All men here refers to “all men”, especially those who believe.

 

[JLB]

Come on, I already responded to 2 Peter 3. The problem is that the whole section is Peter explaining why God has delayed Jesus return and the rapturing of the Saints (which is NOT the topic of free Will vs predestination, is it?)

2 Peter 3, as well as 1 Timothy 4, show us it is God’s Sovereign will to save all men.

It’s up to each person to believe, and therefore obey the Lord.


And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9


God does not do the obeying for us, He does however, give us the grace to obey.


Only those who obey Him, will receive eternal salvation.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Come on, I already responded to 2 Peter 3. The problem is that the whole section is Peter explaining why God has delayed Jesus return and the rapturing of the Saints (which is NOT the topic of free Will vs predestination, is it?)

2 Peter 3 is about the rapture?
Where is this spoken of?
I read where Peter is speaking about the return of Jesus...I don't see any indication of a rapture.

Also, 2 Peter 3:9 is about how God is slow to return because He wants as many as possible to be saved. Before Jesus returns...God is giving everyone a chance to change and become saved. IOW,,,God would like to see as many persons as possible to become saved before Jesus returns.

You read into one part of one verse in this discourse on the rapture YOUR belief that God wants to save all men without exception (which, just to state the obvious, God has FAILED MISERABLY to do).

I've said that God desires all men to be saved.
God has not failed in this desire....
MAN has failed.

If we want to enter the Kingdom of God here on earth,,,there are conditions to be met. Jesus said to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Matthew 4:17

Repenting is one condition.
Being a disciple of Christ is another condition.
John 8:31

There are many others (including me) that read that verse and see the common theme as Peter speaking to the BELOVED (which are all of the Saints and not all men without exception) so Peter claims that God is patient towards YOU (the BELOVED Saints) and does not wish ANY (BELOVED Saints) to perish, so God has delayed the rapture until all of the BELOVED saints have been saved.

Why would God have to be patient towards saints if they are already saved?

What you're saying is that God is waiting for the full number of saved persons that have been chosen from before the beginning to become saved and then Jesus will return.

Do you have some scripture for this?

One common theme throughout having nothing to do with Predestination or Free Will and everything to do with the timing of the rapture and the love of God for His Children.

The end of the world would have to do with predestination...unless God decides along the way....which He doesn't.
God also predestined the method of our salvation.
He just did not predestine who would be saved...this is up to our free will. So this discussion IS focused on the O.P.

I see nothing about the timing of the rapture....2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not slow...and that He is not willing that any should perish...but that ALL would come to repentance.
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
NASB

9The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost.
CEV

God wants everyone to turn from sin and not to be lost.
1 Timothy 2:4-5
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To your final point ... “Don't you think God wanting EVERYONE to be saved shows that He gave us FREE WILL to choose to be saved?”

What I THINK God wants is irrelevant. What I keep asking for and not getting is a verse that says “God gave us FREE WILL to choose to be saved?”

Sure. As soon as you give us a verse that says:
Do nothing. God will choose who will be saved and who will not.

Instead we are told:

Matthew 18:3 Jesus said
"Unless you turn to God from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven."
The above denotes free will.


Acts 2:38
Each one of you must turn from sin, return to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins THEN you also shall receive this gift...the Holy Spirit.
The above denotes free will and belief before regeneration.


John 6:28, 29-30a
28What should we do to satisfy God?
29Jesus told them, "This is the will of God, that you believe in the One he has sent".
30They replied "You must show us more miracles if you want us to believe you are the Messiah.
Jesus is asked what must be done to satisfy God.
HE answers..that they believe in the One God has sent.
They even answered that they needed to see more miracles to help them to believe.


REPENT
TURN TO GOD
BELIEVE IN JESUS

What God actually wrote is ...

• [Jhn 15:16 NASB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

• Of course,,,,Jesus CHOSE THE APOSTLES.

Actually God DOES choose us.
We ARE His elect.

But it is NOT unconditional.
The conditions are:
REPENT
TURN TO GOD
BELIEVE IN JESUS

If we do the above we ARE THE ELECT...we ARE THE CHOSEN.

• [Eph 2:5 NASB] 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, [GOD] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

• Our spirit was dead,,,not us
• We were alive even before being saved....we had the ability to choose to be saved.
• When we chose God...He made us alive with Christ.
• We were a fallen species....we were slaves to sin.
• But were we totally incapable of knowing God and choosing Him?

Jesus Christ was totally like us...
Hebrews 2:17
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Was Jesus totally depraved?
No. Then neither are we...his brethren.

• [Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

We've been through this so many times I even hesitate to reply.
The Father draws everyone to Himself
Romans 1:19-20

Everyone who has learned and has been taught by the Father will go to Jesus. See the very next verse....
John 6:45
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Again, God desires all to be saved. Those that HEAR and LEARN from God will be saved.

[Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
These verses all talk about what God did and who God chose. Where are the verses that say “man chose to be saved”?

Romans 8:28-30 is speaking about God's foreknowledge regarding WHO will be saved based on their accepting God's conditions.

Does FOREKNOW mean nothing to you?
God FOREKNEW who would accept Jesus.
He PREDESTINED them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASB


29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son
NIV

IOW,,,God predestined those that He FOREKNEW would become saved...to become conformed to the image of His Son.


Again,,,God predestined HOW we would be saved,,,NOT WHO would be saved.

2 Peter 3 certainly does not say that man chose to be saved by exercising his free will.

2 Peter 3:9 was not posted to show that we use our free will to become saved (which we do).

It was posted to show that God desires ALL MEN to be saved.