Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[atpollard]

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11

All men here refers to “all men”, especially those who believe.

The question that I asked was ... Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”
1 Timothy 4:10-11 appears to say no such thing.

How is 1 Timothy 4:10-11 somehow not true if God draws those predestined to salvation and gives them the gift of faith?
Is there another savior available to man?
Is Jesus not “especially” the savior of those drawn and given faith who can then believe?
Why is it impossible for “all men” to mean “some from every tribe, tongue and nation” rather than “every individual without exception“?

 

[atpollard]

It’s up to each person to believe, and therefore obey the Lord.

Here you go, your own personal copy:
Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation [believe in Christ] or not.”

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9

God does not do the obeying for us, He does however, give us the grace to obey.

Only those who obey Him, will receive eternal salvation.

Obedience is not the same thing as Belief.
I do not argue that the chosen will not obey; I merely point out that Hebrews 5:9 does not speak to the subject of our belief.

 

[atpollard]

2 Peter 3 is about the rapture?
Where is this spoken of?
I read where Peter is speaking about the return of Jesus...I don't see any indication of a rapture.

Is this a contest to see just how far off track we can get? (I know, just answer the questions.)

The rapture and the return of Christ are events which are inseparably linked. We cannot “meet Him in the air” if Jesus is not there, and Jesus cannot “return for his Bride” without us being called to meet him. It is a package deal.

[2Pe 3:13 NASB] 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

 

[atpollard]

Why would God have to be patient towards saints if they are already saved?

I was not born when Peter wrote that letter, so if Jesus had returned in the Second Century, then I would not have become one of God’s children. How about you? Were you around then or did God need to exercise patience to wait to save you?

 

[atpollard]

Sure. As soon as you give us a verse that says:
Do nothing. God will choose who will be saved and who will not.

Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 2:4-5
Romans 9:22-24

There you go, THREE witnesses.
I am still waiting for your verses ...
Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Is this a contest to see just how far off track we can get? (I know, just answer the questions.)

The rapture and the return of Christ are events which are inseparably linked. We cannot “meet Him in the air” if Jesus is not there, and Jesus cannot “return for his Bride” without us being called to meet him. It is a package deal.

[2Pe 3:13 NASB] 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

The rapture is very much off track.
I would rather not speak about the rapture.
I don't believe there will be any rapture.
Is Jesus coming back twice?
Once for the rapture and once for the end of the world?
Does His appearing in the air count as one time?
And who would not believe after this???

Jesus will take His bride when He comes back.
When He comes back it will be the end of everything.

This DOES require a new thread.....
and I don't feel it's very important to discuss this or debate it.

OTOH, calvinism changes the nature of God and I DO believe this is very important to discuss.

We are all born lost.
We should all go to hell.
This would be just.
But, being a just God,,,He gives to each of us the OPPORTUNITY to become saved, if we wish to be.

When God created man...He KNEW man would sin.
He KNEW the mess we'd be in.
AND SO....IF God is just,,,,He would give to each of us the opportunity to be with Him since it is HE that created us.

Since He created us and knew we would sin....
He also, being just, made Himself be known to us
so that, with our free will, we could choose to be with Him or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was not born when Peter wrote that letter, so if Jesus had returned in the Second Century, then I would not have become one of God’s children. How about you? Were you around then or did God need to exercise patience to wait to save you?

I was referring to the persons Peter is addressing.
What you post above is not responding to what I'm TRYING to say:

Again:

2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

You stated that Peter's YOU is speaking of the beloved Christians.

I'M stating that the beloved Christians DO NOT NEED God's patience for them since they are already saved.

Thus, I don't understand what you're saying about us not being born yet. Many will have not been born when the end comes. It will come at God's will.

You are, once again I BELIEVE, stating the idea that God will end the world when the NUMBER OF BELIEVERS He has established before the beginning of the world will be saved. IOW, when the number is fulfilled.

IF SO....I'm asking you for scripture to support this concept...which is not anywhere in any book I ever read. (this does not mean it's not there, so please post it).

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 2:4-5
Romans 9:22-24

There you go, THREE witnesses.
I am still waiting for your verses ...
Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”

It's interesting how you just throw verses back at me without addressing mine.

1. Romans 8:29-30 has been going over ad nauseum with you and I will not do this again. It does NOT SAY WHO will be saved...
but HOW salvation will come.

2. Epshesians 2:4-5
This scripture makes my point exactly.
GOD IS RICH IN MERCY. Verse 4
He loved us so much that, in His mercy, though we are born dead in spirit and headed for hell, He gave us back our spiritual life by raising Jesus from the dead, as He will us also, IF we choose God.
John 3:16 (of which calvinism has changed the meaning to suit their doctrine).

Just move down to verse 8:
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

By God's good grace we have been saved BY FAITH, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift from God.
SALVATION is the gift from God....NOT FAITH.
FAITH is for us to have.
Romans 4:13 Abraham was righteous BY FAITH.
Romans 2:10-11 Honor to all who seek good, there is no partiality with God.

And see Ephesians 2:10
God prepared BEFOREHAND the good works we are to do...
Again....NOT WHO will be saved...BUT HOW.

3. Romans 9:22-24
This is speaking to the Jewish nation of Israel.
You want to discuss Romans 9 to 11?
Paul is explaining to his Jewish brothers that God has not abandoned Israel but is letting the gentiles in.


Will be answering your post no. 317 later.
It's rather long....

 

[JLB]

The question that I asked was ... Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”
1 Timothy 4:10-11 appears to say no such thing.

2 Peter 3, as well as 1 Timothy 4, show us it is God’s Sovereign will to save all men.

It’s up to each person to believe, and therefore obey the Lord.


And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9


God does not do the obeying for us, He does however, give us the grace to obey.


Only those who obey Him, will receive eternal salvation.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The question that I asked was ... Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”
1 Timothy 4:10-11 appears to say no such thing.

How is 1 Timothy 4:10-11 somehow not true if God draws those predestined to salvation and gives them the gift of faith?
Is there another savior available to man?
Is Jesus not “especially” the savior of those drawn and given faith who can then believe?
Why is it impossible for “all men” to mean “some from every tribe, tongue and nation” rather than “every individual without exception“?

Point out the verse that says God forces us to be saved.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


How can a person depart from the faith unless they make the conscious choice to do so.


For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

• who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

How can a person become saved, unless they make a conscience decision to believe?


He predestines people for purpose, not salvation, as we see it’s His will that all men be saved, and that none should perish.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


The condition for being saved is to believe.


The condition for remaining in Christ, is to obey His commandments.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


JLB

 

[JLB]

Obedience is not the same thing as Belief.
I do not argue that the chosen will not obey; I merely point out that Hebrews 5:9 does not speak to the subject of our belief.

Believe in the original means trust and commit to obey.

Follow carries the idea of obeying, for how can one follow Him, if he doesn’t obey His voice.

Hear also carries the idea of listening with the intent of doing what is heard; hearken.

All the key words associated with eternal life all are predicated on the concept of obeying Jesus Christ as Lord.



Unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeably in the Bible, because they are the same Greek word.


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6



Likewise believe is used interchangeably with obey.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36


“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB





JLB

 

[JLB]

The question that I asked was ... Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”
1 Timothy 4:10-11 appears to say no such thing.

Personally, I believe it is God’s grace and mercy that allow us to be convicted of our sin, and therefore obey His command to repent.


Repent is the call of the Gospel to turn to God.


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Now that we are “in Christ”, and have a born again new nature, empowered by the Spirit, we are called to obey His commandments if we expect to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


IOW, we are to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the sinful desires of our flesh.



Amen.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

OTOH, calvinism changes the nature of God and I DO believe this is very important to discuss.

We are all born lost.
We should all go to hell.
This would be just.
But, being a just God,,,He gives to each of us the OPPORTUNITY to become saved, if we wish to be.

When God created man...He KNEW man would sin.
He KNEW the mess we'd be in.
AND SO....IF God is just,,,,He would give to each of us the opportunity to be with Him since it is HE that created us.

Since He created us and knew we would sin....
He also, being just, made Himself be known to us
so that, with our free will, we could choose to be with Him or not.

I agree with all of that except for one tiny point:

• As you said in the beginning, ALL going to hell “would be JUST”. I believe that God is “a just God” if God chooses to give the OPPORTUNITY of salvation to all (which is His right) or if God simply chooses to DRAW some with the gift of faith (which is also His right).

What I sought was SCRIPTURE to indicate which “just” choice God had actually made. There are scriptures that IMPLY both choices, but there seemed (in my opinion) to be scriptures that explicitly stated that God chose some and not others. So I leaned to the side of God DRAWS some, rather than God gives the OPPORTUNITY to all.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with all of that except for one tiny point:

• As you said in the beginning, ALL going to hell “would be JUST”. I believe that God is “a just God” if God chooses to give the OPPORTUNITY of salvation to all (which is His right) or if God simply chooses to DRAW some with the gift of faith (which is also His right).

What I sought was SCRIPTURE to indicate which “just” choice God had actually made. There are scriptures that IMPLY both choices, but there seemed (in my opinion) to be scriptures that explicitly stated that God chose some and not others. So I leaned to the side of God DRAWS some, rather than God gives the OPPORTUNITY to all.

I understand that there are verses that do seem to state that God chose us.

Of course, I see the verses that say that God has always revealed Himself to man and has given man the opportunity to know God or not know God.

This is what Romans 1:19..... says to me. This is why Romans 1:20 states that man is without excuse. Why would man be without excuse in rejecting God if God did the choosing?

Romans 2:2 tells us that the judgement of God falls on those that practice such things. .... verse 24, 25, 27 28, 29.
The judgement of God falls on THEM...
Does this not tell you that God does NOT judge, in the same way, those that are righteous and do NOT do these things?

Believing God to be love as John states in 1 John 4:8
Believing God to be merciful and just (many verses),,,
I tend to believe that those verses that sound like God is doing the choosing must surely mean that He chooses based on something and His choosing is not unconditional.

God loses no sovereignty by allowing us free will,,,,
He is a big God and can handle our free will and will still accomplish His ends.

I can't imagine the God you understand. It would be like a powerful being designing some kind of game with little persons for it...and WE would be those persons.

You and I can't seem to agree on what compatible free will is.
It would be nice to discuss this sometime --- maybe on another thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 2:4-5
Romans 9:22-24

There you go, THREE witnesses.
I am still waiting for your verses ...
Just point out for me where scripture says what you claim: “It is our free will that allows us to accept His invitation or not.”

I've posted many verses.
Incl Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live,

Doesn't TRUE CHOICE require free will?

And John 3:16 is another good verse. but you refuse to understand it the way it is written....as an INSTRUCTION and not as a description.
John 3:18 states why some have already been judged:
"Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Jesus said this. He said that they are lost because they have not believed --- not because God wants them to be lost, or not saved, or not be believers.


Could you please explain to me:
If compatible free will is true and God changes our nature so as to make us want what He would want us to want...
WHY all the exhortations to a good life in the N.T.?
It is replete with this instruction by all the writers...
I was just reading 1 Timothy 6:18
18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Why would Timothy even say this?
(please don't tell me the answer is in the next verse).

 

[atpollard]

I've posted many verses.
Incl Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live,

Doesn't TRUE CHOICE require free will?

They did not choose life. Israel was an unfaithful wife to God, so God destroyed the nation.
Romans says that the Law was not given for us to obey and obtain righteousness; it says that the function of the Law was to teach us of our need for a savior (by showing that we COULD NOT DO what God commanded). So how can we know whether God told men to CHOOSE in Deuteronomy 30:19 because men could choose, or to teach us that we could not choose without the gift of grace and a new heart?

 

[atpollard]

After 300+ posts, I think this horse is sufficiently dead and there is little left of the mark on the ground to know where to beat. I am ready to just move on. Good luck to all that wish to continue.

 

[JLB]

Romans says that the Law was not given for us to obey and obtain righteousness; it says that the function of the Law was to teach us of our need for a savior (by showing that we COULD NOT DO what God commanded).

That would be an interesting discussion.

I’d like to see that in Romans.


Can you post the scripture that says the law was not given for us to obey?



JLB

 

[JLB]

So how can we know whether God told men to CHOOSE in Deuteronomy 30:19 because men could choose, or to teach us that we could not choose without the gift of grace and a new heart?

So now that we have a new heart we can choose to what?

Obey Jesus Christ as our Lord?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Can you post the scripture that says the law was not given for us to obey?

First post the scripture in Romans that says why the Law was given (if you know it). I do not wish to play semantic games.