Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[atpollard]

So now that we have a new heart we can choose to what?

Obey Jesus Christ as our Lord?

JLB

Yes.
More than that, we WANT to obey Jesus Christ as our Lord.
That is something that the “natural man” does not desire to do.

 

[JLB]

First post the scripture in Romans that says why the Law was given (if you know it). I do not wish to play semantic games.

I don’t know of any post in Romans that says the law was not given for us to obey.


For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes.
More than that, we WANT to obey Jesus Christ as our Lord.
That is something that the “natural man” does not desire to do.

Unfortunately this wanting to obey must be accompanied by actually obeying.


For we still have to deal with the desires of the flesh.


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:12-14



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

After 300+ posts, I think this horse is sufficiently dead and there is little left of the mark on the ground to know where to beat. I am ready to just move on. Good luck to all that wish to continue.

Please don't leave A.
I'm trying to honestly understand how one could come to believe that God could send anyone to hell without their having been given an opportunity to be saved.

I know that we all deserve hell.
But wouldn't a just God give us a chance being that HE created us and KNEW in advance how sinful we would be?

Does this mean He is NOT a loving God?

You're very calm and intelligent...it's not easy to speak to some of your faith...they become mean and defensive and it's almost impossible to carry on a conversation. As you know (since I've said it) I did try to join a reformed site but I was banned after one week !
And I don't think I'm difficult...or maybe I am but don't know it...?

 

[atpollard]

I'm trying to honestly understand how one could come to believe that God could send anyone to hell without their having been given an opportunity to be saved.

How one comes to believe it is simple, we read it in the Bible and reluctantly accept it as truth. I know of no person that delights in the fact that God chose to NOT “foreknow” and “predestine” and “call” and “justify” and “glorify” some. If I did encounter such a person, I would fear for their moral character and avoid them for safety reasons.
As I have said before, if God was asking for my vote, I like Wesleyan Arminianism (where God grants every person without exception the ability to choose Jesus) and Total Annihilation for those that choose to reject Christ. Unfortunately, God does not ask for my vote and what I want the Bible to say is not what I read scripture as actually saying. So I choose to accept what God says over what I want.
That is HOW one comes to believe it.

I know that we all deserve hell.
But wouldn't a just God give us a chance being that HE created us and KNEW in advance how sinful we would be?

Apparently not.

Isaac and Ishmael: Did God give both of them a chance to be the child of promise and receive the blessing that God prophesied would come through Abraham to all nations?

• [Genesis 17:18-21 NASB] 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" 19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."
• [Genesis 21:12] But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.

Jacob and Esau: Did God give both of them the same chance to be the child of promise and receive the blessing? (Either as individuals or as nations)

• [Genesis 25:23 NASB] 23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."
• [Malachi 1:2-3 NASB] 2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "[Was] not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and [appointed] his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
• [Romans 9:13 NASB] 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Nor is God obligated to:

• [Romans 9:14-18 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
• [Romans 9:21-24 NASB] 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Does this mean He is NOT a loving God?

That is a question above my pay grade. I am not qualified to sit in judgement on God.

What I know is that He loves me.

What I also know that God says He is BOTH loving and just:

• [Exodus 34:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave [the guilty] unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
• [Numbers 14:17-23 NASB] 17 "But now, I pray, let the power of the Lord be great, just as You have declared, 18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear [the guilty,] visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth [generations.]' 19 "Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to the greatness of Your lovingkindness, just as You also have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now." 20 So the LORD said, "I have pardoned [them] according to your word; 21 but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22 "Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23 shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it.
• [John 3:18-21 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

 

[atpollard]

Unfortunately this wanting to obey must be accompanied by actually obeying.

I do not find that unfortunate. Wanting to obey, but living a life of disobedience is a concept that sends a chill up my spine. I am grateful that “it is God who is at work in me, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.“ [Philippians 2:13]

 

[JLB]

I do not find that unfortunate. Wanting to obey, but living a life of disobedience is a concept that sends a chill up my spine. I am grateful that “it is God who is at work in me, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.“ [Philippians 2:13]

Amen.

 

[GodsGrace]

How one comes to believe it is simple, we read it in the Bible and reluctantly accept it as truth. I know of no person that delights in the fact that God chose to NOT “foreknow” and “predestine” and “call” and “justify” and “glorify” some. If I did encounter such a person, I would fear for their moral character and avoid them for safety reasons.
As I have said before, if God was asking for my vote, I like Wesleyan Arminianism (where God grants every person without exception the ability to choose Jesus) and Total Annihilation for those that choose to reject Christ. Unfortunately, God does not ask for my vote and what I want the Bible to say is not what I read scripture as actually saying. So I choose to accept what God says over what I want.
That is HOW one comes to believe it.

This view must be respected.
But to be honest, I don't understand it.
How could we read the same N.T. and come up with such different ideas? Why do you concentrate on some passages that would seem to support your view and yet so many others see the passages that support a different view and even have a different understanding of those that YOU see as supporting God choosing who will be saved...

Isaac and Ishmael

: Did God give both of them a chance to be the child of promise and receive the blessing that God prophesied would come through Abraham to all nations?

• [Genesis 17:18-21 NASB] 18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" 19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 "As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year."
• [Genesis 21:12] But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.

God chose to make His covenant with Isaac. God told Abraham to wait but he did not and followed his own path and gave birth to Ishmael through a woman not of Israel.

God WILL establish HIS plan and not that of Abraham and/or Sarah. I have no problem with this passage of scripture.

I don't know what this has to do with fate or free will.
Abraham and his wife freely gave birth through a handmaiden.
God did not want this.
Then Isaac was born and God made His covenant through Isaac's seed.

Man acted freely....
and God rejected what man did.
This happens all throughout the bible.

Jacob and Esau

: Did God give both of them the same chance to be the child of promise and receive the blessing? (Either as individuals or as nations)

• [Genesis 25:23 NASB] 23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."
• [Malachi 1:2-3 NASB] 2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "[Was] not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and [appointed] his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
• [Romans 9:13 NASB] 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

The above is more difficult for me to understand fully.
It's not possible to know if God foreknew that Esau would easily give up his inheritance,,,,it would seem to me that God KNEW this ahead of time, and so used Esau's free will to establish Jacob as the one who would receive his father's blessing.

Or perhaps God did love Jacob more....
I just don't know how we could possibly know this.
In some verse in the O.T. it seems as though God does hate some persons....even though here the word HATE might just mean LOVE LESS...as Jesus also said to hate our mother and father if we are to follow Him, but He meant to love less.

Nor is God obligated to:

• [Romans 9:14-18 NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

• Fortunately for us, God lets us know on whom He will have mercy and on whom He will have compassion. He is no respecter of persons as is stated in Romans 2:11 tells us that God will give honor and peace to every man who does good (verse 10) for there is no partiality with God (verse 11). This is repeated in Acts 10:34.

IT DOES NOT DEPEND ON HIM WHO WILLS OR THE MAN WHO RUNS...but on God who has mercy:
Our salvation originates with God's mercy. Of our own works or will we cannot be saved, but through a gift of God,,IF we accept His rules of course.
Ephesians 2:8
Works do not save us....but God reaches out to man and the one that answers with faith, will be saved.

Ephesians 2:7-10
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

• God prepared beforehand that we were to do good works IN CHRIST JESUS....Always HOW we are saved and not WHO.
• 
  
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• end part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

atpollard

part 2 of 2

• 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Did Pharaoh have a hard heart to begin with and God used it?
Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Exodus 4:21 says that God will harden Pharoah's heart.

Exodus 8:32 states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Even though chapter 8 comes after chapter 4,,,we still must question which is which. Did the author of Exodus make a mistake? Was God using judicial hardening as in Romans 2:24?

Again, I don't believe even theologians can be sure.
However we CAN BE SURE,,,,that God loves us (1 John 4)and wants all men to be saved and that Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself when raised (John 12).

Why must we use passages that are obscure instead of those that are clear?

• [Romans 9:21-24 NASB] 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

This is speaking to the nation of Israel and how God picked the Jews to reveal Himself....I can get into it but not on a normal thead as it would be too long.....
This has nothing to do with INDIVIDUAL salvation...but with God having picked Israel as the nation from which to show His love, wrath, etc.

That is a question above my pay grade. I am not qualified to sit in judgement on God.

What I know is that He loves me.

What I also know that God says He is BOTH loving and just:

• [Exodus 34:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave [the guilty] unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
• [Numbers 14:17-23 NASB] 17 "But now, I pray, let the power of the Lord be great, just as You have declared, 18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear [the guilty,] visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth [generations.]' 19 "Pardon, I pray, the iniquity of this people according to the greatness of Your lovingkindness, just as You also have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now." 20 So the LORD said, "I have pardoned [them] according to your word; 21 but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22 "Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23 shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it.
• [John 3:18-21 NASB] 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Good verses.
So why would God not love everyone?
Did He not create everyone?

Verse 21,,,the last verse:
HE WHO PRACTICES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT.

We practice the truth. We do what is right. We enjoy being in the light so as to praise God.

John 3:36 tell us who these are:
ALL WHO TRUST GOD'S SON TO SAVE THEM WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AND OBEY WILL NEVER SEE HEAVEN AND THE WRATH OF GOD REMAINS ON THEM.

As I said previously,,,we are fortunate in that God allows us to know exactly what He expects from us in order for us to be saved and enjoy His presence in Heaven.[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

In some verse in the O.T. it seems as though God does hate some persons....even though here the word HATE might just mean LOVE LESS...as Jesus also said to hate our mother and father if we are to follow Him, but He meant to love less.

Amen.

 

[atpollard]

How could we read the same N.T. and come up with such different ideas? Why do you concentrate on some passages that would seem to support your view and yet so many others see the passages that support a different view and even have a different understanding of those that YOU see as supporting God choosing who will be saved...

Let is see if we can figure that out.

God chose to make His covenant with Isaac. God told Abraham to wait but he did not and followed his own path and gave birth to Ishmael through a woman not of Israel.

God WILL establish HIS plan and not that of Abraham and/or Sarah. I have no problem with this passage of scripture.

I don't know what this has to do with fate or free will.
Abraham and his wife freely gave birth through a handmaiden.
God did not want this.
Then Isaac was born and God made His covenant through Isaac's seed.

Man acted freely....
and God rejected what man did.
This happens all throughout the bible.

• Did God choose both Isaac and Ishmael? (No.)
• Did God offer His covenant to both Isaac and Ishmael? (No.)
• Was God’s decision made after consulting Isaac and Ishmael on their personal free will choices concerning the Covenant? (No.)

So you do not see what this has to do with fate or free will.

• Does God choose everyone without exception to receive His New Covenant?
  • You say ‘Yes’, because that is only fair.
  • I ask “Then what about Ishmael and the old covenant? Was it ‘fair’ for God to choose Isaac and not choose Ishmael?”
  • If God chose one and did not choose another for the old Covenant, than why is it so hard to imagine that God would choose one and not choose another for the New Covenant?
• Does God offer His grace to everyone without exception?
  • You say ‘Yes’, because God loves everyone.
  • I ask “Then where was God’s love for Ishmael when he was not even offered an opportunity to choose the Covenant?”
  • If God extended grace to one without asking and withheld it from another without even an opportunity to ask for it in the Old Covenant, then why is it so hard to imagine that God might extend grace without asking and withhold grace without even an offer in the New Covenant?
• Did either Isaac or Ishmael get to exercise their free will at any point in this story to accept or reject God’s decision about who God had chosen to Covenant with?
  • No, not even once.
  • You claim that the New Covenant DEPENDS completely on man being willing to accept or reject the offer of God.
  • Is it really so hard to believe that the God that never changes did not suddenly stop being John Wayne telling people what WILL happen, and start becoming Alan Alda asking PERMISSION to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings.

That is a good enough start.
No need to create a wall of text addressing every point.

Do you still have no idea what Isaac and Ishmael has to do with fate and free will?
Do you still see the events as an example of the free will of men in choosing their destiny rather than the ‘fate’ of a God that does as He pleases.

 

[JLB]

• Did God choose both Isaac and Ishmael? (No.)
• Did God offer His covenant to both Isaac and Ishmael? (No.)
• Was God’s decision made after consulting Isaac and Ishmael on their personal free will choices concerning the Covenant? (No.)

This was to determine the line through which the Messiah would come through.

IOW, Isaac was predestined for the purpose of being the line which Christ would come through.


Your analogy is not in the context of predestined for salvation.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” Romans 9:3-7



JLB

 

[JLB]

So

It has to do with God’s will concerning the lineage of Christ.

Not who will be saved or not.

You‘re taking it out of context.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Let is see if we can figure that out.

• Did God choose both Isaac and Ishmael? (No.)
• Did God offer His covenant to both Isaac and Ishmael? (No.)
• Was God’s decision made after consulting Isaac and Ishmael on their personal free will choices concerning the Covenant? (No.)

So you do not see what this has to do with fate or free will.

No A...I do not see what your questions have to do with free will.
Ishmael was a free will choice idea of Abraham and Sarah.
God did not choose him,,,as you've stated.

God did NOT consult Isaac as to whether or not God wanted Isaac's seed to produce the Christ or Messiah.

And why did God not consult Isaac?
Because God made a Unilateral Covenant with Abraham.
Man did not have any part in God's Covenant....
God would see His covenant through, with or without man's participation.

He picked Abraham, just as He picked Mary.
They both were PICKED....
but somehow their free will was involved. And they answered YES.
This is not easy to understand...but thìs does not give us the right to change the character of God and say that since He can choose as He so wills.....then He must choose everything; including our salvation.

In the Mosaic Covenant, man WAS involved. It was a bi-lateral covenant. God told man what He expected and gave him His laws...man said he agreed and would follow the laws.

Why do you suppose God gave man a choice in the Mosaic Covenant? Does this not mean that God gives us a choice?
God DID require man's free will choice to obey Him for the Mosaic Cvnt. Was God just kidding around? Taking man for a ride?? Why would He do this if He knew man did not have libertarian free will?

• Does God choose everyone without exception to receive His New Covenant?
  • You say ‘Yes’, because that is only fair.
  • I ask “Then what about Ishmael and the old covenant? Was it ‘fair’ for God to choose Isaac and not choose Ishmael?”
  • If God chose one and did not choose another for the old Covenant, than why is it so hard to imagine that God would choose one and not choose another for the New Covenant?

NO,,,I do not say yes to your first question.
God does NOT choose everyone without exception to receive His New Covenant. Only those WHO WISH to be a part of the New Covenant can so be. God only WOULD WANT all to be a part of it.

This is what 2 Timothy 2:4 states....God would want all men to be saved...but not all will be due to their free will choice to stay lost.

Why would Paul say this in Timothy if the teaching is that God chooses? It would mean that Paul is teaching something incorrect.....that God WOULD WANT all men to be saved....and yet God goes against HIS VERY WANTS/DESIRE and only picks a few of us !!

I don't quite get your point about God choosing Isaac for the Old Covenant....I've stated many times that God could do whatever He wants to do...He is God after all.

But again, the New Covenant does not require ANYONE to be involved in what God did regarding Jesus and the atonement.
Only those who want to be in the N.C. will be in the N.C.

Your comparing two ideas that have nothing to do with each other.

Please think this over.
p.s. I do not think God is unfair....He would only be unfair in YOUR theology. God is just.

• Does God offer His grace to everyone without exception?
  • You say ‘Yes’, because God loves everyone.
  • I ask “Then where was God’s love for Ishmael when he was not even offered an opportunity to choose the Covenant?”
  • If God extended grace to one without asking and withheld it from another without even an opportunity to ask for it in the Old Covenant, then why is it so hard to imagine that God might extend grace without asking and withhold grace without even an offer in the New Covenant?
• Did either Isaac or Ishmael get to exercise their free will at any point in this story to accept or reject God’s decision about who God had chosen to Covenant with?
  • No, not even once.
  • You claim that the New Covenant DEPENDS completely on man being willing to accept or reject the offer of God.
  • Is it really so hard to believe that the God that never changes did not suddenly stop being John Wayne telling people what WILL happen, and start becoming Alan Alda asking PERMISSION to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings.

Yes, God offers His grace to everyone.
It rains on the just and the unjust...
the sun rises on the just and the unjust.
Matthew 5:45

Also Titus 2:11
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

(not universalism, please---Jesus died for all who would accept Him 1 Timothy 4:10)

We receive grace differently from God because He gives His people the grace they need for His good works...however, grace falls on all because we are saved by grace....through faith. This means we had God's grace before we were even saved.

That is a good enough start.
No need to create a wall of text addressing every point.

Do you still have no idea what Isaac and Ishmael has to do with fate and free will?
Do you still see the events as an example of the free will of men in choosing their destiny rather than the ‘fate’ of a God that does as He pleases.

I do not see what Isaac has to do with free will.
GOD chose to offer man salvation through Isaac.
The Abrahamic Covenant was unilateral....
Isaac, or even Abraham, had nothing to do with it.

I do not take Isaac or Mary as a good example because they are not normal every day examples. I've always maintained that God will work out His purpose...in these two cases it's very clear that it is HIS purpose to have both Isaac and Mary be in His will.
I cannot say for certain that either one picked out their own destiny....as I said - it's a case of God's desire and Mary's free choosing...as to Isaac...he had nothing to do with anything...it was totally God's choice.

Is this a wall of text??
Take your pick.
It's your free choice!

 

[atpollard]

This was to determine the line through which the Messiah would come through.

IOW, Isaac was predestined for the purpose of being the line which Christ would come through.


Your analogy is not in the context of predestined for salvation.

How did the children of Ishmael gain access to the Law of Moses and the Covenant and the forgiveness of sin that came through the prescribed offerings made at the Tabernacle and later the Temple in the Presence of the LORD?

They didn’t.
It has EVERYTHING to do with salvation in the Old Testament.
They had no access to God because God chose to covenant with one man and not another. That is the opposite of “all about our free will”.

 

[atpollard]

It has to do with God’s will concerning the lineage of Christ.

Not who will be saved or not.

You‘re taking it out of context.

No.
The context is who God chose to be His people and have access to God in the Tabernacle and receive the Law so they could make offerings in His presence for the forgiveness of their sins. Ishmael was chosen by God to be outside this covenant so he and his children had no access to the presence of the LORD in the Tabernacle or the offerings of the Law for their sins.

You are refusing to acknowledge that God chooses for himself a people in BOTH testaments.

 

[JLB]

How did the children of Ishmael gain access to the Law of Moses and the Covenant and the forgiveness of sin that came through the prescribed offerings made at the Tabernacle and later the Temple in the Presence of the LORD?

They didn’t.

Why would they need to?

The law of Moses was for the children of Israel who were going to dwell in the land of Israel, unless a Gentile wanted to join in, then they would have to become circumcised.


And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 17:20



JLB

 

[JLB]

Ishmael was chosen by God to be outside this covenant so he and his children had no access to the presence of the LORD

Please post the scriptures that say, Ishmael had no access to the presence of the Lord.


Do you understand what it means to be blessed by God?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You are refusing to acknowledge that God chooses for himself a people in BOTH testaments.

I am not refusing to acknowledge that God chooses.


There is one testament not “both“.


The Abrahamic Covenant became the New Covenant.

The law of Moses was temporarily added to it, until the Seed should come and take part in the blood letting of the Covenant He made with Abraham, thus making it a renewed Covenant.

Not a different Covenant; A renewed Covenant.

A Refreshed Covenant.


The Lord chose for Himself the people through which He would come into the world.


The line of Abraham, and David.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

I don't quite get your point about God choosing Isaac for the Old Covenant

Then I don’t have anything to offer.

God chose to give the covenant and the Law and the Sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin and the Presence of the LORD to the descendants of one person, and God chose to deny the covenant and the Law and the Sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin and the Presence of the LORD to the descendants of another person ... and neither person nor their descendants did anything in their free will to deserve either fate.

God does not change and He does the same thing in the New Covenant.

How does the great-great-great grandson of Ishmael learn of the prescribed offering under the Law and make the appropriate offering in the Tabernacle to have his sins forgiven?
If he cannot, then is he condemned by God to die in his sins?

I cannot “make” you see it or understand.