Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[GodsGrace]

In the definition of “draw” (ἑλκύσῃ)

Could you please post the definition of draw....
It's not easy to translate any language precisely into the English language.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible says:
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [Galatians 3:6-14 NASB]

Statement: All men are saved by their “faith” and “obedience” ... in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant ... Adam and Noah and Abraham and Moses and David and John the Baptist and Peter and everyone in between, including us.

Question 2: Is there another path to God besides a Covenant relationship with God?
(YES or NO)

Arthur’s Answer: NO.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," [which is] performed in the flesh by human hands-- [remember] that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [Ephesians 2:8-12 NASB]

Wondering agrees....
I say NO.
We can only be saved by being a part of the New Covenant.
Or, in the O.T. by faith...it is always by faith.

 

[OzSpen]

In the definition of “draw” (ἑλκύσῃ)

atp,

Please show me from the Greek language (since you quoted it) for John 6:44 that ἑλκύσῃ means an irresistible drawing.

Oz

 

[atpollard]

atp,

Please show me from the Greek language (since you quoted it) for John 6:44 that ἑλκύσῃ means an irresistible drawing.

Oz

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

How about if you show me an example of anywhere at any time that something or someone was “drawn” and successfully “resisted being drawn” at the same time?

There is only one instance of the word “draw” being used in scripture to describe an event where the “drawing” was successfully resisted ... the Bible says they were “not able to draw” (ἑλκύσαι ἴσχυον).

 

[atpollard]

Could you please post the definition of draw....
It's not easy to translate any language precisely into the English language.

Thanks.

Rather than debate definitions, let Scripture define the word for you. Here is every place that the exact same word appears in scripture:

• [Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [Jhn 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all men to Myself."
• [Jhn 18:10 NASB] 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
• [Jhn 21:6 NASB] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find [a catch.]" So they cast, and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great number of fish. ...
• [Jhn 21:11 NASB] 11 Simon Peter went up and drew[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
• [Act 16:19 NASB] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the market place before the authorities,
• [Act 21:30 NASB] 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
• [Jas 2:6 NASB] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?

You decide for yourself if the word means closer to “invite” or “compel” ... is it an offer or a command ... is it resistible or irresistible in all of these cases?

 

[OzSpen]

No thanks. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

How about if you show me an example of anywhere at any time that something or someone was “drawn” and successfully “resisted being drawn” at the same time?

There is only one instance of the word “draw” being used in scripture to describe an event where the “drawing” was successfully resisted ... the Bible says they were “not able to draw” (ἑλκύσαι ἴσχυον).

atp,

There you go. You don't want to engage with the error you made about John 6:44 in the Greek language:

οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρὸς ἐμέ, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ (Tyndale Greek NT). Here is the exegesis of that passage:

Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net ( John 21:6 ), or sword ( John 18:10 ), or men ( Acts 16:19 ), to draw by moral power (12:32 ), as in Jeremiah 31:3 . Surw, the other word to drag ( Acts 8:3 ; Acts 14:19 ) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse 65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse 37. See Romans 8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudei dunatai here (A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament: John 6:44).​

So, the word for 'draw' in John 6:44 is based on elkw, which is like drawing a net, drawing a sword, drawing human beings and drawing by moral power.

It is not used for irresistible grace. That word would be surw, meaning to drag (as in Acts 8:3; 14:9).

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon (1957:251) gives the meaning of elkw in John 6:44 as 'figuratively of the pull on man's inner life ... draw, attract' [also in 12:32].

When you want to make John 6:44 apply to irresistible grace, you enter eisegesis - imposing a meaning on the text. I urge you not to create what the text does not say.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

Rather than debate definitions, let Scripture define the word for you. Here is every place that the exact same word appears in scripture:

• [Jhn 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [Jhn 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all men to Myself."
• [Jhn 18:10 NASB] 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
• [Jhn 21:6 NASB] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find [a catch.]" So they cast, and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great number of fish. ...
• [Jhn 21:11 NASB] 11 Simon Peter went up and drew[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
• [Act 16:19 NASB] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the market place before the authorities,
• [Act 21:30 NASB] 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
• [Jas 2:6 NASB] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?

You decide for yourself if the word means closer to “invite” or “compel” ... is it an offer or a command ... is it resistible or irresistible in all of these cases?

I have a problem accepting this word as a command or a "dragging".

Since the bible is so clear as to soteriology, I really dislike getting into other languages....

Your very answer proves my point.

Drag could have different meanings for different verses because English has less words to describe the Greek: Like LOVE, for instance. Greek has several meanings for love...we have only one.

Using your verses, each one has a different meaning for DRAW.
Let's take one at a time:

John 6:44 NASB
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

How could you possibly reconcile the meaning of draw as to drag if your very next verse is correct??

John 12:32

• [Jhn 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all men to Myself."

If DRAW means TO DRAG,,,,then John 12:32 means that ALL WILL BE SAVED since ALL MEN must surely mean ALL men. Or are we going to change the meaning of THAT too??

Here DRAW means to ATTRACT. (no force or dragging)


I could do this in Greek,,,but I'll use another language instead that is similar to Greek -- Italian. I used an Italian bible and each verse has different words. Sorry if you don't care for Italian...but this DOES WORK very well....

John 6:44 ATTRACT
John 12:32 ATTRACT
John 18:10 UNSHEATH
John 21:6 PULL
John 21:11 PULL
Acts 16:19 DRAG
Acts 21:30 DRAG
James 2:6 DRAG


The above will match the Greek.

John 6:44 DOES NOT mean TO DRAG.

 

[GodsGrace]

atp,

There you go. You don't want to engage with the error you made about John 6:44 in the Greek language:

οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρὸς ἐμέ, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ (Tyndale Greek NT). Here is the exegesis of that passage:

Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net ( John 21:6 ), or sword ( John 18:10 ), or men ( Acts 16:19 ), to draw by moral power (12:32 ), as in Jeremiah 31:3 . Surw, the other word to drag ( Acts 8:3 ; Acts 14:19 ) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse 65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse 37. See Romans 8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudei dunatai here (A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament: John 6:44).​

So, the word for 'draw' in John 6:44 is based on elkw, which is like drawing a net, drawing a sword, drawing human beings and drawing by moral power.

It is not used for irresistible grace. That word would be surw, meaning to drag (as in Acts 8:3; 14:9).

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon (1957:251) gives the meaning of elkw in John 6:44 as 'figuratively of the pull on man's inner life ... draw, attract' [also in 12:32].

When you want to make John 6:44 apply to irresistible grace, you enter eisegesis - imposing a meaning on the text. I urge you not to create what the text does not say.

Oz

Please see my post no. 407.
English is sorely lacking in adjectives...
HOWEVER, I still believe the N.T. is clear in its soteriology if we take it as a complete thought and not verse by verse.

Whatever a verse may SOUND LIKE...we can know for sure that God desires all men to be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

 

[atpollard]

So, the word for 'draw' in John 6:44 is based on elkw, which is like drawing a net, drawing a sword, drawing human beings and drawing by moral power.

• If one pulls on a net and the net refuses to come, was it DRAWN?
• If one pulls on a sword and the sword remains in the sheath, was it DRAWN?
• If one grabs a human being to bring him to court and the human being remains out of court, was he DRAWN?
• If one impels an action by moral power and the action is resisted, was it DRAWN?

Resistible drawing as the word is used is an oxymoron.

• A not-pulled, pulled net.
• A sheathed, unsheathed sword.
• A forced action that did not take place.
• A moral action that was taken and not-taken.

What I argue is:

• A drawn net must actually BE drawn to be DRAWN.
• A drawn sword must actually BE unsheathed to be DRAWN.
• A forced action must actually HAPPEN to be DRAWN.
• A moral action must also actually HAPPEN to be DRAWN.

Thus I stand by the self-evident claim that all DRAWING is irresistible, since a resisted draw is a NOT DRAWN.

 

[atpollard]

It is not used for irresistible grace. That word would be surw, meaning to drag (as in Acts 8:3; 14:9).

Balderdash.

 

[atpollard]

Drag could have different meanings for different verses because English has less words to describe the Greek: Like LOVE, for instance. Greek has several meanings for love...we have only one.

It is ONE WORD in the Greek used in ALL of those verses.
So it has one root that defines that meaning and must apply in all of those verses equally ... some cases may be literal while other cases are more figurative, but all verses used the same word. So the DRAW of John 6:44 is like the pulling of a net, or the unsheathing of a sword, or being hauled off to court.

The action either happened or it did not happen. No person describes “drawing a sword” where the sword remains in the sheath. The sword was only drawn IF IT CAME OUT OF THE SHEATH. In the same way, a man is only DRAWN by the Father to the Son if he comes to the son. Otherwise he is a “drawn sword still in its sheath” ... a self-contradiction.

Therefore DRAW is not resisted by the very definition of “to draw”.

 

[atpollard]

OzSpen
Re: Irresistible vs. Resistible Drawing

How about if you show me an example of anywhere at any time that something or someone was “drawn” and successfully “resisted being drawn” at the same time?

 

[JLB]

Using your verses, each one has a different meaning for DRAW.
Let's take one at a time:

John 6:44 NASB
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

How could you possibly reconcile the meaning of draw as to drag if your very next verse is correct??

John 12:32

• [Jhn 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all men to Myself."

If DRAW means TO DRAG,,,,then John 12:32 means that ALL WILL BE SAVED since ALL MEN must surely mean ALL men. Or are we going to change the meaning of THAT too??

Here DRAW means to ATTRACT. (no force or dragging)

Amen.

If draw means to take someone by force to be saved, then all would invariably be saved.

So then we find that “all” needs to be redefined to mean, only those who are predestined for salvation.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
John 12:32-33


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Does Jesus drawing a person to Him, mean that they are automatically born again, and will endure to the end?



JLB

 

[JLB]

OzSpen
Re: Irresistible vs. Resistible Drawing

How about if you show me an example of anywhere at any time that something or someone was “drawn” and successfully “resisted being drawn” at the same time?

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” John 6:65-67


Is this an instance where His disciples were drawn to Him?


Yes, He is reiterating what He said in verse 44, by saying “therefore I have said”... He is repeating and clarifying what draw means to Him, which is being granted the ability to come to Jesus by the Father.










JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It is ONE WORD in the Greek used in ALL of those verses.
So it has one root that defines that meaning and must apply in all of those verses equally ... some cases may be literal while other cases are more figurative, but all verses used the same word. So the DRAW of John 6:44 is like the pulling of a net, or the unsheathing of a sword, or being hauled off to court.

The action either happened or it did not happen. No person describes “drawing a sword” where the sword remains in the sheath. The sword was only drawn IF IT CAME OUT OF THE SHEATH. In the same way, a man is only DRAWN by the Father to the Son if he comes to the son. Otherwise he is a “drawn sword still in its sheath” ... a self-contradiction.

Therefore DRAW is not resisted by the very definition of “to draw”.

I understand your point.
But we don't have textual scholars for no reason.

If John 6:44 means to drag...
Then we also have to accept that John 12:32 means to drag.

So why is not all mankind saved?


Also, how do you explain this:


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

HELPS Word-studies
1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

and

STRONGS NT 1670: ἕλκωἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also (Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82))); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elz John 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;

1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

If you notice above,,,
John 6:44 is under NUMBER 2 which is metaphorical and also means LEAD, or IMPEL......how can we know that LEAD is not what was meant?

I mean, OzSpen is a Greek scholar, I don't know how you could argue with someone that knows Greek.

That would be like you arguing with me about what an Italian word means.....

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.

If draw means to take someone by force to be saved, then all would invariably be saved.

So then we find that “all” needs to be redefined to mean, only those who are predestined for salvation.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
John 12:32-33


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Does Jesus drawing a person to Him, mean that they are automatically born again, and will endure to the end?



JLB

Agreed.
And a reason why I really dislike referring to the Greek words.

The N.T. is very clear in what it teaches and we should not get obsessed with words....I believe we should pay attention to the overall message,

And this is easy to do if we just read the verses simply.

John 3:16 JESUS SAID.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

It does NOT say as some believe.
that those who believe in Him will be saved........

It is an instruction:
WHOEVER,,,ANYBODY,,,that believe in Him, will be saved.

Our belief is necessary for salvation.
OUR belief...freely given.

 

[atpollard]

So why is not all mankind saved?

I have explained that ... you did not like my explanation.

 

[atpollard]

If you notice above,,,
John 6:44 is under NUMBER 2 which is metaphorical and also means LEAD, or IMPEL......how can we know that LEAD is not what was meant?

It does not matter. Let us assume for discussion that the word meant LEAD. Is someone actually LEAD if they do not follow, or does the act of claiming that the FATHER LEADS them to the SON mean that they were actually LEAD?

Even in this case, the “leading” cannot have been resisted or it was “NOT LEAD” ... thus it must be an irresistible leading.

 

[atpollard]

I mean, @OzSpen is a Greek scholar, I don't know how you could argue with someone that knows Greek.

The Priests and Pharisees were Hebrew Scholars, but Galilean fisherman understood the spiritual truths that they did not. I am not belittling OzSpen (although he has not claimed to be a scholar), but merely cautioning that education is not the same as truth. Even Scholars should have to prove their claims from scripture.

 

[JLB]

but merely cautioning that education is not the same a truth.

Amen.