Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[Butch5]

Thank you.

You're welcome. This subject is one of the most misunderstood of all of the doctrines. Both sides typically start from the wrong premise. It's not surprising that they end up at the wrong conclusion.

 

[Butch5]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]


Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB]

Both of those passages are references to Israel

 

[JLB]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]

So we it goes into Romans 9, which has been shown that the context is about God choosing the lineage of Christ.


Notice the context of the scripture you quoted.

It’s those who conform to the image of His Son, are glorified with Christ.

It would contradict the entire New Testament to say that those Christians who are not conformed to the image of His Son, but live according to the flesh, will be glorified with Christ.


Here is how Romans 8 begins.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]


Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB]

And here we have the misunderstanding of both passages...
Once again....
God has not predestined WHO...
but predestined HOW.

Could we go through this?
You see the word "predestined" but you never see WHAT is predestined.....

Here are your verses:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]


God FOREKNEW who would come to accept Jesus as Savior....

He PREDESTINED those persons to be conformed to the image of His son (the first of many brethren).

These that are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus,
God called them, as He also calls others but He knew the others would not reply to the call.....(Timothy, Peter - God would want all men to be saved but they do not choose to).

Those who came to accept Jesus are also justified and will be glorified.

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB]

God chose us IN HIM before the beginning.
Through Jesus would come salvation --- this is God's plan...the mystery which was not revealed before this time. (verse 9)

God PREDESTINED us as SONS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
This is HOW we will be saved...NOT WHO.
The kind intention of His will : God so loved His creation that He gave us the opportunity to be saved through Christ...THIS is the good intention of His will.

The INHERITANCE is predestined....not the person.
The person is predestined to have an inheritance.

And look at the steps:

1. We LISTEN to the gospel of the truth. HEAR, LISTEN
2. We BELIEVE it. BELIEVE, TRUST
3. We are sealed (marked) with the Holy Spirit. SALVATION

 

[atpollard]

God FOREKNEW who would come to accept Jesus as Savior....

Talk to Butch, not me. He is the one that claims that passage is all about the nation of Israel, so “who would come to accept Jesus as Savior” is irrelevant.

Both of those passages are references to Israel

I simply did not think that all of the biblical references to predestination were about Israel and not about the Saints, so I posted the verses without comment to allow them to speak for themselves.

 

[atpollard]

wondering
JLB

Time to try a completely different approach.

Please allow me to ask THREE simple questions that I will answer for myself and you can answer for yourself. There is no need for either of us to explain why the other person is “wrong” or “misunderstanding scripture”. We can all just answer honestly for what WE each believe.

**********

The Bible says:
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. [Romans 10:9-10 NIV]

Question 1: Does our free will play a part in our “belief”?
(YES or NO)

Arthur’s Answer: No.
We are chosen before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4]. We are irresistibly drawn by the Father to the Son [John 6:44]. We are given by the Father to the Son [John 10:29]. Our faith is a gift from God [Ephesians 2:8].

Your turn to answer (If you so choose).

 

[JLB]

wondering
JLB

Time to try a completely different approach.

Please allow me to ask THREE simple questions that I will answer for myself and you can answer for yourself. There is no need for either of us to explain why the other person is “wrong” or “misunderstanding scripture”. We can all just answer honestly for what WE each believe.

**********

The Bible says:
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. [Romans 10:9-10 NIV]

Question 1: Does our free will play a part in our “belief”?
(YES or NO)

Arthur’s Answer: No.
We are chosen before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4]. We are irresistibly drawn by the Father to the Son [John 6:44]. We are given by the Father to the Son [John 10:29]. Our faith is a gift from God [Ephesians 2:8].

Your turn to answer (If you so choose).

Yes: it’s up to each person to believe, and obey the Gospel.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

If this scripture said... that whoever is predestined to be saved should not perish, then I would agree.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


God does not do the believing and obeying for us, although He gives us the grace to do so.


Do you believe God does the obeying for us?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Talk to Butch, not me. He is the one that claims that passage is all about the nation of Israel, so “who would come to accept Jesus as Savior” is irrelevant.

But I was speaking to YOU!
My favorite calvinist!

Corporate salvation starts in chapter 9...just after that.
But OK.....

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
JLB

Time to try a completely different approach.

Please allow me to ask THREE simple questions that I will answer for myself and you can answer for yourself. There is no need for either of us to explain why the other person is “wrong” or “misunderstanding scripture”. We can all just answer honestly for what WE each believe.

**********

The Bible says:
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. [Romans 10:9-10 NIV]

Question 1: Does our free will play a part in our “belief”?
(YES or NO)

Arthur’s Answer: No.
We are chosen before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4]. We are irresistibly drawn by the Father to the Son [John 6:44]. We are given by the Father to the Son [John 10:29]. Our faith is a gift from God [Ephesians 2:8].

Your turn to answer (If you so choose).

Question 1: Does our free will play a part in our belief?
YES

A. God foreknew who would be saved.
Romans 8:29

B. Jesus draws all men to Himself
John 12:32

And God has always drawn men to Himself
Romans 1:19-20

C. God saves us through Christ.
John 3:17

D. Faith is a gift from God...It is a gift from Him...offered to all.
Ephesians 2:8
1 Timothy 2:4


P.S.
Where is the word "irresistible" in John 6:44?
(no fair)

 

[Butch5]

Talk to Butch, not me. He is the one that claims that passage is all about the nation of Israel, so “who would come to accept Jesus as Savior” is irrelevant.



I simply did not think that all of the biblical references to predestination were about Israel and not about the Saints, so I posted the verses without comment to allow them to speak for themselves.

Talk to Butch, not me. He is the one that claims that passage is all about the nation of Israel, so “who would come to accept Jesus as Savior” is irrelevant.



I simply did not think that all of the biblical references to predestination were about Israel and not about the Saints, so I posted the verses without comment to allow them to speak for themselves.

Hi Atpollard,

The passages you posted are referring to the Jews. If you look at Romans 2:17 Paul turns his attention to the Jews in the church at Rome.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

He carries on this discussion with the Jewish members at Rome until 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentile members of the church.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom. 11:13 KJV)

That whole section between these two verses is addressed to the Jewish believers in the church. The passage in question is,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom. 8:28-29 KJV)

So, the ones that were predestinated are those God foreknew. The question becomes who did God foreknow? Paul doesn't leave us hanging, he tells us.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,1 (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

Paul tells us right here that the people God foreknew were the Israelites. If it is the Israelites that God foreknew then it was them that He also predestined.

The other passage, Ephesians 1 is also a reference to Israel. I'm going to post a link to my commentary on this because it's took much to put into a post.

Ephesians 1

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Atpollard,

The passages you posted are referring to the Jews. If you look at Romans 2:17 Paul turns his attention to the Jews in the church at Rome.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

He carries on this discussion with the Jewish members at Rome until 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentile members of the church.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom. 11:13 KJV)

That whole section between these two verses is addressed to the Jewish believers in the church. The passage in question is,

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom. 8:28-29 KJV)

So, the ones that were predestinated are those God foreknew. The question becomes who did God foreknow? Paul doesn't leave us hanging, he tells us.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,1 (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

Paul tells us right here that the people God foreknew were the Israelites. If it is the Israelites that God foreknew then it was them that He also predestined.

The other passage, Ephesians 1 is also a reference to Israel. I'm going to post a link to my commentary on this because it's took much to put into a post.

Ephesians 1

Butch,,,
I just looked over your article and it's really great.
It's getting printed right now.

As I said, I do believe some of those verses could be used for individual salvation,,,I don't know why those chapters are even in Romans. It should have been a different letter --- maybe it was??

Anyway, 2:11 a.m. here.
'night.

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe God does the obeying for us?

No.

 

[atpollard]

But I was speaking to YOU!
My favorite calvinist!

Corporate salvation starts in chapter 9...just after that.
But OK.....

Yes you were.

The irony was not lost on me that all I did was to directly quote the Word of God verbatim with no commentary ... and you still took the opportunity to post and explain to me that I had misunderstood scripture.

 

[JLB]

No.

Welcome to the truth.

JLB

 

[atpollard]

Where is the word "irresistible" in John 6:44?

In the definition of “draw” (ἑλκύσῃ)

 

[atpollard]

Welcome to the truth.
JLB

I have believed that since I first read Ephesians 4:10, but FAITH and SALVATION are still a gift. (That is also the truth).

 

[atpollard]

The Bible says:
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [Galatians 3:6-14 NASB]

Statement: All men are saved by their “faith” and “obedience” ... in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant ... Adam and Noah and Abraham and Moses and David and John the Baptist and Peter and everyone in between, including us.

Question 2: Is there another path to God besides a Covenant relationship with God?
(YES or NO)

Arthur’s Answer: NO.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," [which is] performed in the flesh by human hands-- [remember] that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [Ephesians 2:8-12 NASB]

 

[Butch5]

Butch,,,
I just looked over your article and it's really great.
It's getting printed right now.

As I said, I do believe some of those verses could be used for individual salvation,,,I don't know why those chapters are even in Romans. It should have been a different letter --- maybe it was??

Anyway, 2:11 a.m. here.
'night.

Thanks! I hope it helps.

 

[JLB]

I have believed that since I first read Ephesians 4:10, but FAITH and SALVATION are still a gift. (That is also the truth).

Grace, Faith and Salvation are gifts.


What we do with them determines our future.



“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
“So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ His lord said to him, Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
“Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
“But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:14-27


This parable is the context for Matthew 25:31-46



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes you were.

The irony was not lost on me that all I did was to directly quote the Word of God verbatim with no commentary ... and you still took the opportunity to post and explain to me that I had misunderstood scripture.

I don't post to tell you you're wrong about scripture....
I post to tell you the difference between how YOU understand the verses and how I understand the verses.

And to tell you that I'm right!!
JK (but of course I am)