Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[JLB]

Our belief is necessary for salvation.

Amen.

 

[atpollard]

It does NOT say as some believe.
that those who believe in Him will be saved........

It is an instruction:
WHOEVER,,,ANYBODY,,,that believe in Him, will be saved.

Could you explain the difference between

• “those who believe in Him”
• “whoever believes in Him”
• ”anybody that believes in Him”

because I cannot figure out what person might belong to one of those groups but not the other two.

 

[JLB]

atp,

There you go. You don't want to engage with the error you made about John 6:44 in the Greek language:

οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρὸς ἐμέ, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ (Tyndale Greek NT). Here is the exegesis of that passage:

Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net ( John 21:6 ), or sword ( John 18:10 ), or men ( Acts 16:19 ), to draw by moral power (12:32 ), as in Jeremiah 31:3 . Surw, the other word to drag ( Acts 8:3 ; Acts 14:19 ) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse 65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse 37. See Romans 8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudei dunatai here (A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament: John 6:44).​

So, the word for 'draw' in John 6:44 is based on elkw, which is like drawing a net, drawing a sword, drawing human beings and drawing by moral power.

It is not used for irresistible grace. That word would be surw, meaning to drag (as in Acts 8:3; 14:9).

Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexicon (1957:251) gives the meaning of elkw in John 6:44 as 'figuratively of the pull on man's inner life ... draw, attract' [also in 12:32].

When you want to make John 6:44 apply to irresistible grace, you enter eisegesis - imposing a meaning on the text. I urge you not to create what the text does not say.

Oz

Yeah!

What he said!



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I have explained that ... you did not like my explanation.

I'm sorry atpollard, I really don't remember your explanation.
If both John 6:44 and John 12:32 use draw the same way...
ALL MANKIND WOULD BE SAVED.

Could you please tell me why it would NOT mean this?

 

[GodsGrace]

It does not matter. Let us assume for discussion that the word meant LEAD. Is someone actually LEAD if they do not follow, or does the act of claiming that the FATHER LEADS them to the SON mean that they were actually LEAD?

Even in this case, the “leading” cannot have been resisted or it was “NOT LEAD” ... thus it must be an irresistible leading.

You can lead a horse to the water...
But you can't make him drink it.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Priests and Pharisees were Hebrew Scholars, but Galilean fisherman understood the spiritual truths that they did not. I am not belittling OzSpen (although he has not claimed to be a scholar), but merely cautioning that education is not the same as truth. Even Scholars should have to prove their claims from scripture.

We finally agree!
I also believe it's more important to understand the spiritual truths of the N.T.. John seemed to understand Jesus a lot better than Peter did, but Jesus chose each one of them for different purposes.

The bible is an interesting book.
A very simple person could read it and come away with the truth.
A scholar could read it and write article upon article about it.
It can be as simple or as complex as one needs it to be.

I do believe that we need scholars to unravel it for us and give us insight. Not everyone needs this...I happen to like to study it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Could you explain the difference between

• “those who believe in Him”
• “whoever believes in Him”
• ”anybody that believes in Him”

because I cannot figure out what person might belong to one of those groups but not the other two.

Sure.
As you know the reformed believe that John 3:16 is a statement of fact and not an instruction.

THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM could possibly support this teaching if the verse stood alone. IOW, THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM -- however that may have come about....It is a STATEMENT.

Instead WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM
and
ANYBODY THAT BELIEVES IN HIM

means that it is up to US to believe in Him.
ANYBODY and WHOSOEVER means that whatever person does as instructed will not perish.

Anyone, anybody or anything?
Anyone, anybody and anything are indefinite pronouns. We use anyone, anybody and anything to refer to both an open, unlimited set of things or people and specific things or people. We use them with a singular verb: …


source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/it/dizionario/inglese/anybody

 

[atpollard]

I'm sorry atpollard, I really don't remember your explanation.
If both John 6:44 and John 12:32 use draw the same way...
ALL MANKIND WOULD BE SAVED.

Could you please tell me why it would NOT mean this?

[John 12:32-33 NKJV] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself." 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

• First, verse 33 tells us that the purpose of verse 32 was to predict what sort of death Jesus would suffer, so “drawing all people” is a secondary point and not the main point (from the pen of the Apostle John himself).
• However, I will remind you that Jesus also said:
  • [John 16:7 NKJV] 7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
  • Jesus was “lifted up” and Jesus did “go away” and in Acts 2, the Helper did arrive ...
    

[Acts 2:4-11 NIV] 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

• The promise was fulfilled in part. Jesus was lifted up and through the Helper which Jesus sent, “both Jews and converts to Judaism” from “every nation under heaven” were drawn to Christ at Pentecost.
• Note that not EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION that heard the words of God spoken in tongues (foreign languages) and the message preached by Peter at Pentecost believed. However, SOME FROM EVERY NATION were “pierced to the heart” and WERE “drawn” to Christ that day.

[Revelation 5:6-10 NASB] 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

• In Revelation we see the ultimate fulfillment of Jesus words. The “Lamb was slain” and among the countless multitude that sing His praises are members of EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION”.
• Jesus did not draw ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, but Jesus did draw SOME from EVERY TRIBE and EVERY TONGUE and EVERY PEOPLE and EVERY NATION.

Jesus drew “all men” and not just the Jews like under the Old Covenant.

 

[atpollard]

But you can't make him drink it.

1. Can God make the horse drink?
2. Are people not already thirsty for the “living water” that can only be found in Jesus? The trick is not “getting them to drink”, rather the difficulty is that “no one can come to the Living Water (the Son) unless the Father leads (draws) them there”.

Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. [John 6:43-45 NASB]


Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." [John 10:25-30 NASB]

 

[JLB]

[John 12:32-33 NKJV] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself." 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

• First, verse 33 tells us that the purpose of verse 32 was to predict what sort of death Jesus would suffer, so “drawing all people” is a secondary point and not the main point (from the pen of the Apostle John himself).
• However, I will remind you that Jesus also said:
  • [John 16:7 NKJV] 7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
  • Jesus was “lifted up” and Jesus did “go away” and in Acts 2, the Helper did arrive ...

[Acts 2:4-11 NIV] 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

• The promise was fulfilled in part. Jesus was lifted up and through the Helper which Jesus sent, “both Jews and converts to Judaism” from “every nation under heaven” were drawn to Christ at Pentecost.
• Note that not EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION that heard the words of God spoken in tongues (foreign languages) and the message preached by Peter at Pentecost believed. However, SOME FROM EVERY NATION were “pierced to the heart” and WERE “drawn” to Christ that day.

[Revelation 5:6-10 NASB] 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

• In Revelation we see the ultimate fulfillment of Jesus words. The “Lamb was slain” and among the countless multitude that sing His praises are members of EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION”.
• Jesus did not draw ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, but Jesus did draw SOME from EVERY TRIBE and EVERY TONGUE and EVERY PEOPLE and EVERY NATION.

Jesus drew “all men” and not just the Jews like under the Old Covenant.

Jesus was indeed lifted up from the earth.

So in order to draw all men, the drawing must continue through the end of the age, so that all men will have been drawn.


As you can see, drawing a person does not mean they will be saved, since each person must believe the Gospel when they hear it.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17


People must hear the gospel and obey it, in order to be saved.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10



Drawing does not equal salvation.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

So in order to draw all men, the drawing must continue through the end of the age, so that all men will have been drawn.

Sorry, I see no such thing.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [John 6:44 NASB]


"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." [John 10:26-30 NASB]

 

[OzSpen]

[John 12:32-33 NKJV] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself." 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

• First, verse 33 tells us that the purpose of verse 32 was to predict what sort of death Jesus would suffer, so “drawing all people” is a secondary point and not the main point (from the pen of the Apostle John himself).

atp,

You are being cagey and doing what many Calvinists do. They make 'all' mean all kinds of people and not ALL people all over the world.

That is not what pas (pantas) means in John 12:32. There is no other noun accompanying it - peoples. That is your Calvinistic assertion to avoid universal drawing of ALL people since Jesus was crucified.

God's drawing of everyone is not limited by Jesus. It's a universal drawing of people. Not people from all nations, but ALL people. This is an indication of God's unlimited grace extended to all people.

Why do ALL people not come to Jesus? They are pigheaded and resistant. Paul tells us why: 'The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness' (Rom 1:18 NIV).

People stifle the Gospel and God's grace through their wicked lifestyle.

It is NOT because 'all' does not mean all but only means 'all peoples'. Pas means everyone in the world.

Oz

 

[atpollard]

You are being cagey and doing what many Calvinists do. They make 'all' mean all kinds of people and not ALL people all over the world.

Respectfully, she asked how I explained it.
You are free to disagree with my blessings, but I can only answer how I SEE IT with how I see it. That hardly qualifies as cagey. In Acts 2, the “down payment” on all people, it WAS some of all types since not every individual in the crowd was drawn to Christ (many just mocked). In Revelation where the pledge is fulfilled, it is explicit that it is some of all types ... especially since the Two Witnesses proclaim to all man and most reject Christ for the Man of Lawlessness.

I am a Reformed Baptist, so the “already and not yet” of scripture runs through my theological veins.

 

[atpollard]

Pas means everyone in the world.

“That’s UNIVERSALISM, Patrick!”

Explain to me how the natives living in Central America from AD 100 to AD 200 where drawn to Christ when He was lifted up given that the Gospel didn’t even arrive in the “New World” until almost AD 1500? (You are the one that wants to claim that ALL means “ALL without exception” rather than “some of all kinds”).

 

[OzSpen]

Respectfully, she asked how I explained it.
You are free to disagree with my blessings, but I can only answer how I SEE IT with how I see it. That hardly qualifies as cagey. In Acts 2, the “down payment” on all people, it WAS some of all types since not every individual in the crowd was drawn to Christ (many just mocked). In Revelation where the pledge is fulfilled, it is explicit that it is some of all types ... especially since the Two Witnesses proclaim to all man and most reject Christ for the Man of Lawlessness.

I am a Reformed Baptist, so the “already and not yet” of scripture runs through my theological veins.

atp,

As I pointed out, your exegesis of the meaning of pas (panta) is incorrect. It does not mean 'all the people'. It means ALL people everywhere around the world.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

“That’s UNIVERSALISM, Patrick!”

Explain to me how the natives living in Central America from AD 100 to AD 200 where drawn to Christ when He was lifted up given that the Gospel didn’t even arrive in the “New World” until almost AD 1500? (You are the one that wants to claim that ALL means “ALL without exception” rather than “some of all kinds”).

That's humanistic thinking. They know of the existence of God from creation (Rom 1:18-20 NIV) and conscience:

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares (Rom 2:15-16 NIV).​

We know that the natives of Central America, Central Australia or Central Africa have enough information to respond to Him. In fact, when they face the Lord at death these 'people are without excuse' (Rom 1:20 NIV).

So, did 'some of all kinds' apply to Central America, Central Asia and Central Australia in AD 100?

Oz

 

[JLB]

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [John 6:44 NASB]

In this context He is referring to the disciples.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry, I see no such thing.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. [John 6:44 NASB]


"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." [John 10:26-30 NASB]

Do you believe people living on earth throughout the the first century until now, can hear His voice?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Can God make the horse drink?
2. Are people not already thirsty for the “living water” that can only be found in Jesus? The trick is not “getting them to drink”, rather the difficulty is that “no one can come to the Living Water (the Son) unless the Father leads (draws) them there”.

Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. [John 6:43-45 NASB]


Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. "I and the Father are one." [John 10:25-30 NASB]

Of course A...the above goes to TOTAL DEPRAVITY and should be on the total depravity thread...but it came up here.

So...could God make the horse drink?
SURE. God could do whatever He wants to do...we all believe in His sovereignty.

It's just that I believe God gave us free will when he created the first man and that we have never lost it.

I can find nowhere in scripture that would lead me to believe that God has removed this free will from us.

Adam and Eve were made immortal, absence of the sin nature and infused knowledge...they lost these attributes with the fall,,,,
free will was not a part of preternatural gifts. Free will is throughout scripture and is a normal gift from God.

P.S.
Even horses have free will !

 

[GodsGrace]

[John 12:32-33 NKJV] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself." 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

• First, verse 33 tells us that the purpose of verse 32 was to predict what sort of death Jesus would suffer, so “drawing all people” is a secondary point and not the main point (from the pen of the Apostle John himself).
• However, I will remind you that Jesus also said:
  • [John 16:7 NKJV] 7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
  • Jesus was “lifted up” and Jesus did “go away” and in Acts 2, the Helper did arrive ...

Re John 12:32 I'll have to go with your first explanation...
It was to show how Jesus would die. But, as you stated, it does state that IN THIS WAY Jesus would draw all men to Himself.
This happens to be the difference between the Mosaic and the New Covenant.

As to Jesus being lifted up, John 16:7 and Acts 2, yes, of course,,,but this is speaking of two different ideas.

[Acts 2:4-11 NIV] 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

• The promise was fulfilled in part. Jesus was lifted up and through the Helper which Jesus sent, “both Jews and converts to Judaism” from “every nation under heaven” were drawn to Christ at Pentecost.
• Note that not EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION that heard the words of God spoken in tongues (foreign languages) and the message preached by Peter at Pentecost believed. However, SOME FROM EVERY NATION were “pierced to the heart” and WERE “drawn” to Christ that day.

Agreed.
This would be in agreement with the fact that the New Covenant will be offered to all men and not just the Jewish nation.
All men does include All nations.
IOW,,,All men all over the world.
And yes, not all that hear the gospel will believe.

[Revelation 5:6-10 NASB] 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

• In Revelation we see the ultimate fulfillment of Jesus words. The “Lamb was slain” and among the countless multitude that sing His praises are members of EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION”.
• Jesus did not draw ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, but Jesus did draw SOME from EVERY TRIBE and EVERY TONGUE and EVERY PEOPLE and EVERY NATION.

Jesus drew “all men” and not just the Jews like under the Old Covenant.

You explain this very nicely and I have to agree.
The reformed sometimes use the term ALL MEN in a manner I cannot agree with but yes, to mean some in every nation...the way you've explained it I can agree with.