Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[atpollard]

atp,

As I pointed out, your exegesis of the meaning of pas (panta) is incorrect. It does not mean 'all the people'. It means ALL people everywhere around the world.

Oz

Not according to history or Revelation.

 

[OzSpen]

Not according to history or Revelation.

And you provided not one example. That makes it your opinion or assertion. Therefore, I cannot accept it on the basis of NO evidence provided. If you do that again, I'll give you this icon. and

 

[GodsGrace]

“That’s UNIVERSALISM, Patrick!”

Explain to me how the natives living in Central America from AD 100 to AD 200 where drawn to Christ when He was lifted up given that the Gospel didn’t even arrive in the “New World” until almost AD 1500? (You are the one that wants to claim that ALL means “ALL without exception” rather than “some of all kinds”).

Easy A....
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to man.
It's up to man to choose whether or not to accept Him.
THIS is why men will be without excuse. Because man has always had the opportunity to say YES to God.

 

[JLB]

Easy A....
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to man.
It's up to man to choose whether or not to accept Him.
THIS is why men will be without excuse. Because man has always had the opportunity to say YES to God.

Which shows us man must apply himself to understand and believe as well as obey God’s command to all people.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


again


Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, Acts 17:30




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Not according to history or Revelation.

Are we discussing Acts 2:17 and Acts 2:21?

Here is what they mean:
Acts 2:17---- EVERY HUMAN BEING
Acts 2:21----WHOSOEVER

I guess you could take it or leave it, but that's what those verse mean as to WHO....

I think what you do is take the greek lexicon and use the word used??
This won't work. There are too many nuances to a word in a foreign language....Strong's 3956 does not mean the same for every verse.
It gives a general meaning, but the word changes for each verse.
Here's what I found for Strong's 3956,,,it can mean EITHER
ALL, EVERY or
ALL, THE WHOLE, EVERY KIND OF KIND....
I found Acts 2:21 but could not find Acts 2:17 which also uses Stong's 3956.

We need to trust those that know Greek better than we do.


Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

[When 3956 (pás) modifies a word with the definite article it has "extensive-intensive" force – and is straightforward intensive when the Greek definite article is lacking.]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. word
Definition
all, every
NASB Translation
all (731), all the things (7), all...things (1), all kinds (1), all men (14), all people (4), all respects (3), all things (126), all* (1), always* (3), any (16), any at all (1), anyone (3), anything (3), anything* (1), continually* (6), entire (4), every (128), every form (1), every kind (9), every respect (1), every way (2), everyone (71), everyone's (1), everyone* (1), everything (45), forever* (1), full (2), great (2), no* (15), none* (1), nothing (1), nothing* (1), one (4), perfectly (1), quite (1), whatever (3), whatever* (1), whoever (7), whole (18).

​

part 1 of 4

 

[GodsGrace]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3956: πᾶς

πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν, genitive παντός, πάσης, παντός, (dative plural, Lachmann πᾶσι ten times, πασσιν seventy-two times; Tdf. πᾶσι five times (see Proleg., p. 98f), πᾶσιν seventy-seven times; Treg. πᾶσιν eighty-two times; WH πᾶσι fourteen times, πᾶσιν sixty-eight times; see Nu, (ἐφελκυστικον)), Hebrew כֹּל (from Homer down), all, every; it is used:
I. adjectivally, and

1. with anarthrous nouns;

a. any, every one (namely, of the class denoted by the norm annexed to πᾶς); with the singular: as πᾶν δένδρον, Matthew 3:10; πᾶσα θυσία, Mark 9:49 (T WH Tr marginal reading omits; Tr text brackets the clause); add, Matthew 5:11; Matthew 15:13; Luke 4:37; John 2:10; John 15:2; Acts 2:43; Acts 5:42; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 4:17; Revelation 18:17, and very often; πᾶσα ψυχή ἀνθρώπου, Romans 2:9 (πᾶσα ἄνθρωπος ψυχή, Plato, Phaedr., p. 249 e.); πᾶσα συνείδησις ἀνθρώπων, 2 Corinthians 4:2; πᾶς λεγόμενος Θεός, 2 Thessalonians 2:4; πᾶς ἅγιος ἐν Χριστῷ, Philippians 4:21ff with the plural, all or any that are of the class indicated by the noun: as πάντες ἄνθρωποι, Acts 22:15; Romans 5:12, 18; Romans 12:17; 1 Corinthians 7:7; 1 Corinthians 15:19; πάντες ἅγιοι, Romans 16:15; πάντες ἄγγελοι Θεοῦ, Hebrews 1:6; πάντα (L T Tr WH τά) ἔθνη, Revelation 14:8; on the phrase πᾶσα σάρξ, see σάρξ, 3.

b. any and every, of every kind (A. V. often all manner of): πᾶσα νόσος καί μαλακία, Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 10:1; εὐλογία, blessings of every kind, Ephesians 1:3; so especially with nouns designating virtues or vices, emotions, character, condition, to indicate every mode in which such virtue, vice or emotion manifests itself, or any object whatever to which the idea expressed by the noun belongs: — thus, πᾶσα ἐλπίς, Acts 27:20; σοφία, Acts 7:22; Colossians 1:28; γνῶσις, Romans 15:14; ἀδικία, ἀσέβεια, etc., Romans 1:18, 29; 2 Corinthians 10:6; Ephesians 4:19, 31; Ephesians 5:3; σπουδή, 2 Corinthians 8:7; 2 Peter 1:5; ἐπιθυμία, Romans 7:8; χαρά, Romans 15:13; αὐτάρκεια, 2 Corinthians 9:8; ἐν παντί λόγῳ καί γνώσει, 1 Corinthians 1:5; σοφία καί φρονήσει etc. Ephesians 1:8; ἐν πάσῃ ἀγαθωσύνη καί δικαιοσύνη, καί ἀλήθεια, Ephesians 5:9; αἰσθήσει, Philippians 1:9; ὑπομονή, θλῖψις, etc., 2 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Corinthians 12:12; add, Colossians 1:9-11; Colossians 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:9; 1 Timothy 1:15; 1 Timothy 5:2; 1 Timothy 6:1; 2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 2:15 (on which see σπιταγη); ; James 1:21; 1 Peter 2:1; 1 Peter 5:10; πᾶσα δικαιοσύνη, i. e. ὁ ἄν ἤ δίκαιον, Matthew 3:15; πᾶν θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, everything God wills, Colossians 4:12; πᾶσα ὑποταγῇ, obedience in all things, 1 Timothy 2:11; πάσῃ συνειδήσει ἀγαθή, consciousness of rectitude in all things, Acts 23:1; — or it signifies the highest degree, the maximum, of the thing which the noun denotes (cf. Winer's Grammar, 110 (105f); Ellicott on Ephesians 1:8; Meyer on Philippians 1:20; Krüger, § 50, 11, 9 and 10): as μετά πάσης παρρησίας, Acts 4:29; Acts 28:31; μετά πάσης ταπεινοφροσύνης, Acts 20:19; προθυμίας, Acts 17:11; χαρᾶς, Philippians 2:29, cf. James 1:2; ἐν πάσῃ ἀσφάλεια, Acts 5:23; ἐν παντί φόβῳ, 1 Peter 2:18; πᾶσα ἐξουσία, Matthew 28:18 (πᾶν κράτος, Sophocles Phil. 142).

c. the whole (all, Latintotus): so before proper names of countries, cities, nations; as, πᾶσα Ἱεροσόλυμα, Matthew 2:3; πᾶς, Ἰσραήλ, Romans 11:26; before collective terms, as πᾶς οἶκος Ἰσραήλ, Acts 2:36; πᾶσα κτίσις (see κτίσις, 2 b.); πᾶσα γραφή (nearly equivalent to the ὅσα προεγράφη in Romans 15:4), 2 Timothy 3:16 (cf. Rothe, Zur Dogmatik, p. 181); πᾶσα γερουσία υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ, Exodus 12:21; πᾶς ἵππος Φαραώ, Exodus 14:23; πᾶν δίκαιον ἔθνος, Additions to Esther 1:9 [Esther 11:71:1f]; by a somewhat rare usage before other substantives also, as (πᾶν πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς, Acts 17:26 L T Tr WH); οἰκοδομή, Ephesians 2:21 G L T Tr WH, cf. Harless at the passage, p. 262 (others find no necessity here for resorting to this exceptional use, but render (with R. V.) each several building (cf. Meyer)); πᾶν τέμενος, 3Macc. 1:13 (where see Grimm); Παύλου ... ὅς ἐν πάσῃ ἐπιστολή μνημονεύει ὑμῶν, Ignatius ad Eph. 12 [ET] ((yet cf. Lightfoot)); cf. Passow, under the word πᾶς, 2; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, A. II.); Winers Grammar, § 18, 4; (Buttmann, § 127, 29); Krüger, § 50, 11, 8 to 11; Kühner, see 545f.

part 2 of 4

 

[GodsGrace]

2. with nouns which have the article, all the, the whole (see c. just above): — with the singular; as, πᾶσα ἡ ἀγέλη, the whole herd, Matthew 8:32; πᾶς ὁ ὄχλος, Matthew 13:2; πᾶς ὁ κόσμος, Romans 3:19; Colossians 1:6; πᾶσα ἡ πόλις (i. e. all its inhabitants), Matthew 8:34; Matthew 21:10, etc.; πᾶσα ἡ Ἰουδαία, Matthew 3:5; add, Matthew 27:25; Mark 5:33; Luke 1:10; Acts 7:14; Acts 10:2; Acts 20:28; Acts 22:5; Romans 4:16; Romans 9:17; 1 Corinthians 13:2 (πίστιν καί γνῶσιν in their whole compass and extent); Ephesians 4:16; Colossians 1:19; Colossians 2:9, 19; Philippians 1:3; Hebrews 2:15; Revelation 5:6, etc.; the difference between πᾶσα ἡ θλῖψις (all) and πᾶσα θλῖψις (any) appears in 2 Corinthians 1:4. πᾶς ὁ λαός οὗτος, Luke 9:13; πᾶσαν τήν ὀφειλήν ἐκείνην, Matthew 18:32; πᾶς placed after the noun has the force of a predicate: τήν κρίσιν πᾶσαν δέδωκέ, the judgment he hath given wholly (cf. Winer's Grammar, 548 (510)), John 5:22; τήν ἐξουσίαν ... πᾶσαν ποιεῖ, Revelation 13:12; it is placed between the article and noun (Buttmann, § 127, 29; Winer's Grammar, 549 (510)), as τόν πάντα χρόνον, i. e. always, Acts 20:18; add, Galatians 5:14; 1 Timothy 1:16 (here L T Tr WH ἅπας); — with a plural, all (the totality of the persons or things designated by the noun): πάντας τούς ἀρχιερεῖς, Matthew 2:4; add, Matthew 4:8; Matthew 11:13; Mark 4:13; Mark 6:33; Luke 1:6, 48; Acts 10:12, 43; Romans 1:5; Romans 15:11; 1 Corinthians 12:26; 1 Corinthians 15:25; 2 Corinthians 8:18, and very often; with a demonstrative pronoun added, Matthew 25:7; Luke 2:19, 51 (here T WH omit L Tr marginal reading brackets the pronoun); πάντες is placed after the noun: τάς πόλεις πάσας, the cities all (of them) (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above), Matthew 9:35: Acts 8:40; add, Matthew 10:30; Luke 7:35 (here L Tr WH text πάντων τῶν etc.); Luke 12:7; Acts 8:40; Acts 16:26; Romans 12:4; 1 Corinthians 7:17; 1 Corinthians 10:1; 1 Corinthians 13:2; 1 Corinthians 15:7; 1 Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:2, 12(13); Philippians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:26; 2 Timothy 4:21 (WH brackets πάντες); Revelation 8:3; οἱ πάντες followed by a noun, Acts 19:7; Acts 27:37; τούς κατά τά ἔθνη πάντας Ἰουδαίους, Acts 21:21 (here L omits; Tr brackets πάντας).

part 3 of 4

 

[GodsGrace]

atpollard

There's even more!

But I think this gets the point across.


part 4 of 4

 

[atpollard]

And you provided not one example. That makes it your opinion or assertion. Therefore, I cannot accept it on the basis of NO evidence provided. If you do that again, I'll give you this icon. and

I provided TWO examples, both from scripture.
You chose to ignore them.

 

[atpollard]

Easy A....

God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to man.
It's up to man to choose whether or not to accept Him.
THIS is why men will be without excuse. Because man has always had the opportunity to say YES to God.

If the natives were Drawn to Christ without ever needing to hear the gospel, then I guess missionaries are really pointless. For that matter, if nature and conscience are enough, was Jesus incarnation even necessary?

I’ll stick to Ephesians 2:1-10 painting a picture of God saving from among the dead those whom God chooses to bestow his grace upon. No more and no less.

 

[OzSpen]

I provided TWO examples, both from scripture.
You chose to ignore them.

atp,

I was responding to your post #441: "Not according to history or Revelation".

You DID NOT give 2 examples of 'history or Revelation' in #441. You gave zero.

Please don't be so subversive.

Oz

 

[atpollard]

Are we discussing Acts 2:17 and Acts 2:21?

John 12:32 (which you brought up and OzSpen accuses me of 1. Bad exegesis and 2. Unsupported opinion).

Acts 2 and Revelation 5 both support my exegetical view with history and prophecy.

 

[atpollard]

atp,

I was responding to your post #441: "Not according to history or Revelation".

You DID NOT give 2 examples of 'history or Revelation' in #441. You gave zero.

Please don't be so subversive.

Oz

Asked and answered.
Not going to repeat it because you want to play obtuse and make unjust accusation.

 

[OzSpen]

If the natives were Drawn to Christ without ever needing to hear the gospel, then I guess missionaries are really pointless. For that matter, if nature and conscience are enough, was Jesus incarnation even necessary?

I’ll stick to Ephesians 2:1-10 painting a picture of God saving from among the dead those whom God chooses to bestow his grace upon. No more and no less.

atp,

For me, I'm agnostic on this issue as I haven't read a solution in the Scriptures.

I support missions 100% because Scripture commands me to do so (Matt 28:18-20).

See the article: What Happens to Those Who Never Hear the Gospel? (The Gospel Coalition)

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

If the natives were Drawn to Christ without ever needing to hear the gospel, then I guess missionaries are really pointless. For that matter, if nature and conscience are enough, was Jesus incarnation even necessary?

I’ll stick to Ephesians 2:1-10 painting a picture of God saving from among the dead those whom God chooses to bestow his grace upon. No more and no less.

How were men saved before the gospel was available to all?
Were all sent straight to hell?

You believe what you do due to your theology....
Romans 1:19-20 disagrees with your theology and does not state what you believe.

Jesus died FOR ALL MEN and FOR ALL TIME, both BEFORE and AFTER the crucifixion. Were not those in the O.T. saved by faith?
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.

1 Timothy 4:10
10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


Hebrews 11 tells of many that were saved by faith....
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Sarah
Hebrews 11:12 many were born of one man as there were stars in heaven (Abraham)...ALL THESE died in faith...
Verse 16 God is not ashamed of them for He has prepared a city for them.

Faith WAS even BEFORE Christ's death,,,as it was awaited from the beginning of time.

And those that never hard the gospel were also saved by faith in the God that revealed Himself...and also by the sacrifice of Christ which was yet to come.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 12:32 (which you brought up and OzSpen accuses me of 1. Bad exegesis and 2. Unsupported opinion).

Acts 2 and Revelation 5 both support my exegetical view with history and prophecy.

Right.
Your post no. 428
and my reply no. 440

Any comment on posts 445 to 448?

I was trying to make the point that we cannot get hung up on words but should take the N.T. as a whole thought.

The entire thought to me would be:
We're sinners
God created and loves His creation
So much that He sent His Son to die for us
We choose whether or not to accept this sacrifice

 

[PeterJens]

Right.
Your post no. 428
and my reply no. 440

Any comment on posts 445 to 448?

I was trying to make the point that we cannot get hung up on words but should take the N.T. as a whole thought.

The entire thought to me would be:
We're sinners
God created and loves His creation
So much that He sent His Son to die for us
We choose whether or not to accept this sacrifice

The point we choose, supposes we know God, His will and nature, and ours also, and with all this foundation, do we care that Jesus died. The pharisees knew all these things but were happy to see Jesus executed, though they did not really know what for.

Jesus calls us a field awaiting seed, His word. If we are good soil, when the seed comes it will take root and grow. Is that choice by God, fate? Does God have a rotivator to churn up the soil?

This meeting, God and ourselves, strikes me as a profound, one off event. This is where our descriptions of the same thing, can emphasise a different aspect and all be true. If God does not draw us, His word given, the cross there, the history laid out, would we respond? And our choice, is we are alone, empty and in need, and this loving Father comes with an answer to our deepest needs. So I could say we have a choice, but in the light, there is no choice, it is the only way.

But this choice, is freely given, which is also ironic.
Peter talked about dogs going back to vomit, or pigs back to wallowing in mud. It just is not going to happen.

Insecurity seems to drive people to believe no take backs. But God with the parable of the merciful king, warns, there are take backs, this is justice, no fake or jokes here.

What amazes me, if I was talking to someone on a forum, its just opinion. But our Lord is saying forgive from the heart. Not, it is a suggestion, be nice, and I will ignore this. Nope. God is saying, you have to forgive from the heart. How on earth does anyone talk around this? He is the authority, the ruler of all. It is not like it is just a passing comment, this is foundational. Yet some not only over throw Gods commands they condemn those who stand by these principles as of satan.

So a conversation can go, high, nice to see you, you are my enemy and I would rather see you dead burning in hell forever. Pretty heavy for believing Christs words.

 

[GodsGrace]

The point we choose, supposes we know God, His will and nature, and ours also, and with all this foundation, do we care that Jesus died. The pharisees knew all these things but were happy to see Jesus executed, though they did not really know what for.

Jesus calls us a field awaiting seed, His word. If we are good soil, when the seed comes it will take root and grow. Is that choice by God, fate? Does God have a rotivator to churn up the soil?

Hi PJ, Sorry for delay.
Apparently, as is demonstrated on this thread, not all of us agree as to God's nature. Or even His will. Because something is His will, do we lose our free will? I say no. It's God's will or desire that all be saved,,,and yet not all are. Is He a weak God? Not even able to save everyone? No. Because if we followed HIS will, EVERYONE would be saved ! As is stated in 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9. No. It's up to our free will as to whether or not we WANT to be saved.

The reformed believe that John 12:32, which states that when Jesus dies on the cross He will draw all men to Himself, would be universalism, if it were true. But the fact that we have free will and must choose for ourselves shows that universalism is NOT true.

Surely the opposite is true if the reformed are correct.
The N.T. clearly shows that God WISHES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED...
then why aren't they? They surely believe in either a weak God, or a God that does not even know what He wants.

This meeting, God and ourselves, strikes me as a profound, one off event. This is where our descriptions of the same thing, can emphasise a different aspect and all be true. If God does not draw us, His word given, the cross there, the history laid out, would we respond? And our choice, is we are alone, empty and in need, and this loving Father comes with an answer to our deepest needs. So I could say we have a choice, but in the light, there is no choice, it is the only way.

Agreed,,,God definitely must draw us.
But does He draw only a select few...or does He draw everyone?
Romans 1:19-20 tell us that all mankind has had the opportunity to know God and to choose Him and they are thus without excuse.

As to the light...right, in the light there is no choice.
But it's like the prepared soil,,,the soil ready to receive...
the light must also be received...and for that we have to be ready.

John 1:9-13
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, [the jews] and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those that receive the light are the reborn, and this is not a physical rebirth....a plan of man....but a rebirth according to the will of God, Whose plan was made from the beginning of the world.

But this choice, is freely given, which is also ironic.
Peter talked about dogs going back to vomit, or pigs back to wallowing in mud. It just is not going to happen.

Insecurity seems to drive people to believe no take backs. But God with the parable of the merciful king, warns, there are take backs, this is justice, no fake or jokes here.

What amazes me, if I was talking to someone on a forum, its just opinion. But our Lord is saying forgive from the heart. Not, it is a suggestion, be nice, and I will ignore this. Nope. God is saying, you have to forgive from the heart. How on earth does anyone talk around this? He is the authority, the ruler of all. It is not like it is just a passing comment, this is foundational. Yet some not only over throw Gods commands they condemn those who stand by these principles as of satan.

So a conversation can go, high, nice to see you, you are my enemy and I would rather see you dead burning in hell forever. Pretty heavy for believing Christs words.

I know what you're talking about.
Satan deludes many...
Many cannot accept the truth.
I think they're trying to mix what THEY want and what GOD wants.
I think they don't know what it means to be a disciple.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi PJ, Sorry for delay.
Apparently, as is demonstrated on this thread, not all of us agree as to God's nature. Or even His will. Because something is His will, do we lose our free will? I say no. It's God's will or desire that all be saved,,,and yet not all are. Is He a weak God? Not even able to save everyone? No. Because if we followed HIS will, EVERYONE would be saved ! As is stated in 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9. No. It's up to our free will as to whether or not we WANT to be saved.

The reformed believe that John 12:32, which states that when Jesus dies on the cross He will draw all men to Himself, would be universalism, if it were true. But the fact that we have free will and must choose for ourselves shows that universalism is NOT true.

Surely the opposite is true if the reformed are correct.
The N.T. clearly shows that God WISHES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED...
then why aren't they? They surely believe in either a weak God, or a God that does not even know what He wants.


Agreed,,,God definitely must draw us.
But does He draw only a select few...or does He draw everyone?
Romans 1:19-20 tell us that all mankind has had the opportunity to know God and to choose Him and they are thus without excuse.

As to the light...right, in the light there is no choice.
But it's like the prepared soil,,,the soil ready to receive...
the light must also be received...and for that we have to be ready.

John 1:9-13
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11He came to His own, [the jews] and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those that receive the light are the reborn, and this is not a physical rebirth....a plan of man....but a rebirth according to the will of God, Whose plan was made from the beginning of the world.


I know what you're talking about.
Satan deludes many...
Many cannot accept the truth.
I think they're trying to mix what THEY want and what GOD wants.
I think they don't know what it means to be a disciple.

The word draw seems to be an issue. Maybe if one holds God is sovereign, if God draws He will succeed. But if the drawing, attraction, calling is a voice in the desert, it is those who respond who are counted worthy.

But an action of a sinner to be counted at all is regarded as heresy.

So the fruit of total depravity is no meaningful choice or some would say, reducing the power of the cross.

But the cross works because of free will and choice. God freely chose the impossible to save the lost, to be a light, to guide them home.

Light only works in a free world, without choice there is no point to sight or guilt or shame or repentance.

Even discussing here only works because of free will Amen, thank you Jesus you set the prisoner free .....

 

[JLB]

No. Because if we followed HIS will, EVERYONE would be saved !