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Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

JLB said:
Please post the scriptures that say, Ishmael had no access to the presence of the Lord.
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[2Ch 23:6 NLT] 6 Remember, only the priests and Levites on duty may enter the Temple of the LORD, for they are set apart as holy. The rest of the people must obey the LORD's instructions and stay outside.

Ishmael was not a Levite or a High Priest, so his children could not enter the Tabernacle or Temple to approach anywhere near the Presence of the LORD (as Moses and Aaron did).
 
JLB said:
Why would they need to?
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Because just like us, they sin and need their sins forgiven.
Before Jesus came, that meant sacrifices in blood of animals and grain to the LORD.

Is there another path to God or another sacrifice that God will accept?
 
JLB said:
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 17:20
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That “great nation” is the Arabs and Mohamed and Islam ... so it is NOT a Godly Nation. God chose one people to be His and another people to be Not His. Just like later Jesus says the Father chose some to be His sheep and others were not His sheep and couldn’t believe or come to Him.
 
atpollard said:
[2Ch 23:6 NLT] 6 Remember, only the priests and Levites on duty may enter the Temple of the LORD, for they are set apart as holy. The rest of the people must obey the LORD's instructions and stay outside.

Ishmael was not a Levite or a High Priest, so his children could not enter the Tabernacle or Temple to approach anywhere near the Presence of the LORD (as Moses and Aaron did).
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So only Aaron and Moses were chosen?
 
atpollard said:
That “great nation” is the Arabs and Mohamed and Islam ... so it is NOT a Godly Nation. God chose one people to be His and another people to be Not His. Just like later Jesus says the Father chose some to be His sheep and others were not His sheep and couldn’t believe or come to Him.
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They are many great Arab men and women of God.


JLB
 
atpollard said:
Then I don’t have anything to offer.

God chose to give the covenant and the Law and the Sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin and the Presence of the LORD to the descendants of one person, and God chose to deny the covenant and the Law and the Sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin and the Presence of the LORD to the descendants of another person ... and neither person nor their descendants did anything in their free will to deserve either fate.

God does not change and He does the same thing in the New Covenant.

How does the great-great-great grandson of Ishmael learn of the prescribed offering under the Law and make the appropriate offering in the Tabernacle to have his sins forgiven?
If he cannot, then is he condemned by God to die in his sins?

I cannot “make” you see it or understand.
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You post what you want to but not the rest of what I say.
I said I didn't understand how YOU explain Isaac....but then I went on to explain what the bible teaches about this.

Is God a foof?
He predestined Abraham and Sarah to have Ishmael?
And for what??

NO. Ismeal was A and S's free choice child. THEY decided to have him. It was their free choice or God would not be a God of reason.

God wanted Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to be the ancestors of the revealed God....

As to Ishmael dying in sin...
Are you saying that you believe that everyone that was not of Abraham's family was lost?

Everyone, at all times, has always been saved by the same quality:
Faith in God.
See Romans 1:19
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD
God has been clearly seen
Being understood through what has been made
SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE

They are without excuse....
This means that each and every person that ever lived had the opportunity to be saved --- by knowing God and having faith in Him.

Each and every person that ever lived HAS NO EXCUSE when dying and not going to heaven BECAUSE GOD gave him the OPPORTUNITY to be saved by God's revelation to that person.

If the above is not correct....then MAN DOES HAVE AN EXCUSE...and the bible does not tell the truth.

Could you explain Romans 1:19-20 in any other way?
Man is without excuse...
means man has a choice in salvation
BECAUSE GOD IS A JUST GOD and give to all the same opportunity.
 
atpollard said:
No.
The context is who God chose to be His people and have access to God in the Tabernacle and receive the Law so they could make offerings in His presence for the forgiveness of their sins. Ishmael was chosen by God to be outside this covenant so he and his children had no access to the presence of the LORD in the Tabernacle or the offerings of the Law for their sins.

You are refusing to acknowledge that God chooses for himself a people in BOTH testaments.
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God chose for Himself a people through which to REVEAL HIMSELF more clearly and accurately.
But God has always been known to mankind.

How would you reconcile your statement with Romans 1:19-20?
Please see my post 370.

And, BTW, JLB is correct.
No covenant ever abolished the previous one but only changed it in some way....making it better, or changing the terms.
For instance, the New Covenant still requires us to obey the 10 commandments, as was required in the Mosaic Covenant. But now we have a BETTER WAY of keeping God's commandments.
 
atpollard said:
God chose to give the covenant and the Law and the Sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin and the Presence of the LORD to the descendants of one person,
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You said it was just Aaron and Moses who had access to the Presense of the Lord.

Does this mean the rest of the descendants of Abraham were not chosen to be saved, according to your theology?



JLB
 
atpollard said:
and God chose to deny the covenant and the Law and the Sacrifices for the forgiveness of sin and the Presence of the LORD to the descendants of another person ... and neither person nor their descendants did anything in their free will to deserve either fate.
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Here is why God led the Children of Israel out of Egypt and gave them the law, so He could bless them lead them into the promised land, thereby fulfilling His promise to Abraham.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:4-5


Abraham obeyed.


Here is where it started.


Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him...
Genesis 12:1-4


Its called the obedience of faith.


Abraham made the choice to obey God, and was justified by his obedience. The obedience of faith.



It’s how we are all saved.




JLB
 
atpollard said:
Because just like us, they sin and need their sins forgiven.
Before Jesus came, that meant sacrifices in blood of animals and grain to the LORD.

Is there another path to God or another sacrifice that God will accept?
Click to expand...

The obedience of faith.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9



By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7








JLB
 
atpollard said:
In the Old Testament?
We are speaking of the fate of a people from the time of Abraham until Christ opened the door for all tribes, tongues and nations.
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Abraham was Arab. A Gentile.

A Syrian.


And you shall go to the one who is priest in those days, and say to him, ‘I declare today to the Lord your God that I have come to the country which the Lord swore to our fathers to give us.’
“Then the priest shall take the basket out of your hand and set it down before the altar of the Lord your God. And you shall answer and say before the Lord your God: ‘My father was a Syrian, about to perish, and he went down to Egypt and dwelt there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous. Deuteronomy 26:3-5



JLB
 
atpollard said:
Then welcome to the Reformation. ;)
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He chooses for purpose, not salvation.

He chose the 12 to be disciples and then Apostles.

They were until Judas fell away.

They were all predestined by His foreknowledge to reign with Christ in the ages to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Judas was chosen to reign with Christ along with the others.


Judas chose his own way.



Welcome to the truth.




JLB
 
atpollard said:
That “great nation” is the Arabs and Mohamed and Islam ... so it is NOT a Godly Nation.
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Just as the Jews whom God chose to be in covenant, started the religion of Judaism and ended up rejecting Christ who chose them to bless them, so also the defendants of Ishmael started the religion of Islam which also rejects Christ as Lord.

Judaism and Islam both are antichrist religions.



JLB
 
Christ the King said:
This is a topic that I could never comprehend and I suspect humans don't have the capacity to fully understand it.
I've listened to different people and theologians give their opinions and theories but none of them sound convincing.

Let's start by defining the truths.
1/ The bible teaches us that we have free will. (the extent of that is probably debatable)
2/ God is omniscient. He knows what we are going to do. (the extent of that is debatable i think)
3/ Many bible verses confirm predestination (the extent of that is also debatable I think)

So how can we have free will when God has a predestined path for us and knows what we are going to do?

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.
But God already knew I would eat the T bone steak before I even started to think about it.
Or did he only know when I had decided to eat the T bone?

I recall Jesus predicting Peters 3 denials when Peter hadn't even thought of it yet. So it seems God knows before we even consider it.

What exactly is predestined? Is it our fate after death? Is it every little think we say, eat and do? Or somewhere in between?

A quick look and I noticed there are a wide range of theories on this and many theologians who have attempted to crack the puzzle.

So what do u think? Do u have a theory on how God's omniscience can combine with free will and predestination?

Or do u give up like me and just say
"God. Your glory and wonder is beyond the capability of my mind to comprehend. And so i leave my faith in You Lord"
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It's not hard to understand if we start from the correct position. Most start off trying to understand predestination from a point of salvation. This is why there is no consensus and why there are so many theories. When the Bible speaks of predestination, it is not talking about being saved. It is talking about God's choosing of Israel. Once we understand this and approach it with this presupposition it all makes perfect sense.
 
Butch5 said:
It's not hard to understand if we start from the correct position. Most start off trying to understand predestination from a point of salvation. This is why there is no consensus and why there are so many theories. When the Bible speaks of predestination, it is not talking about being saved. It is talking about God's choosing of Israel. Once we understand this and approach it with this presupposition it all makes perfect sense.
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Thank you.
:clap
 
Butch5 said:
When the Bible speaks of predestination, it is not talking about being saved. It is talking about God's choosing of Israel.
Click to expand...
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Romans 8:28-30 NASB]


Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory. [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB]
 
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