atpollard
Member
A bible history trivia question:
What happened when Israel “freely chose” NOT to make the VOLUNTARY offerings to God?
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Fate... Free Will vs Predestination
- Thread starter Christ the King
- Start date
What happened when Israel “freely chose” NOT to make the VOLUNTARY offerings to God?
atpollard
Member
I wrote a lengthy opening post clerly explaining what I believe about free will.
Summary:
- Are people mindless robots? No.
- Are people able to choose between good and evil free from the influence of their nature? No.
“Free Will” (as allied to the relationship between God and Man) is not a phrase that actually appears in the Bible. That means that like the Trinity, it may be taught as a concept in the Bible, but the phrase still MUST be defined by men.
atpollard
Member
Just picking a nit, but that is not Genesis 1.
(PS. Under Reformed thinking, Adam and Eve had libertarian free will before the fall. The “Adamic Curse” giving us a fallen nature comes on mankind after the fall.)
atpollard
Member
You assume that I do not understand your arguments. That is not the case. First, I do believe man has free will. I also believe that without a miracle of God that man has a fallen nature. Our free will is a slave to our sinful heart. Therefore, man has the freedom to do whatever he wants and EVERYTHING that the sinful heart and mind and flesh of man wants draws man away from God rather than towards God.
I believe that the cure for this is simple. God performs a miracle. God commits an act of undeserved favoritism (GRACE) upon men that hate Him. God gives them a new heart that now desires God. God empowers them to transform their mind. God grants them strength to break the chains of the flesh that entices them back into the world. Those who have received this miracle are utterly transformed and will obey the commands of God, joyfully. Those that have not received this miracle cannot create their own miracle and transform themselves.
We are free to do what we want, and our wants are slaves to either sin or righteousness.
It is not that I do not see what you see. I just see the rest of the verses and believe that you have reached a false conclusion.
What I have vehemently argued is nothing more than that the PHRASE “free will” does not appear in scripture in any description of the relationship between God and Man.
It is like baptizing infants ... it is a simple fact that there is no verse that states that an infant was baptized. One must read where scripture says that a “household” was baptized and conclude that there was an infant in the household.
In the same way, one must read where God issues a command and conclude that people had the free will to obey or disobey. I disagree with your conclusion.
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atpollard
Member
I have not said that either.
I believe: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.” [Romans 10:9-10 NLT]
You have added the word “choice” to what I believe and what scripture says.
And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom is from generation to generation.
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down. Daniel 4:34-37
- And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
God certainly was able to humble King Nebuchadnezzar, by allowing him to go through a season of humility where he seemed to lose his mind, as we read in the context.
While the word was still in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.”
That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.
Daniel 4:31-33
“Sovereign will” is not used in any of these verses.
God, the Creator of all things is certainly able to do as He wishes with kings and those in authority, to bring about His purposes in the earth.
Does this mean God forces people to become saved?
No.
God graciously invites everyone to believe in His Son, Jesus Christ.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
This verse from Daniel teaches us about God humbling kings, especially the king of a world empire, to bring about his purposes in the earth. To show this king that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.
JLB
Please show us the scripture that teaches us what happened to someone who did not make a free will offering.
JLB
Could you please explain the difference between “God’s will”, and “God’s Sovereign will”?
What does Sovereign mean to you?
Sovereign is a noun, and is another word for ruler or potentate.
Somehow, I get the idea that you are using the word “Sovereign” to mean God just overrides man’s will and gives salvation to him whether he believes or not, or repents or not, because God is “Sovereign” and can do whatever He wants.
Is this what you mean by Sovereign?
JLB
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If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7
God told Cain that he in fact had the ability to rule over sin, and to do good.
JLB
No, I can not speak Hebrew or Aramaic as I'm not sure if any member is fluent in these languages except one that I know of. What I use is a word translator to turn the words from the original to that of English just like these two post below.
In post # 25 I gave the Hebrew word how it is written in Hebrew. If I would have just posted רצון חופשי without giving the English could you or anyone else know that the word is freewill, no. You rejected the verse that was given you that actually says freewill as in your opinion you said that is not the freewill between man and God. I, as well as many of us, have given many scriptures that shows the definition of freewill being between man and God. I can't explain it any better than I already have as freewill vs predestination goes back to the first century that can only be resolved by what has already been written in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.
Post # 25 Actually the word freewill goes back to the original Hebrew word רצון חופשי - noun - the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. In English described as free, desire, independence, volition, liberty, freedom, accord, choice, will, wish and discretion. We have to remember the Tanakh (OT) was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
Post # 34 It's like the word Trinity that is not found in scripture, but that scripture explains what it means. It's the same with the word freewill that is not found in scripture, but the first time we see it being exercised is found in Genesis 2:16; 3:1-6.
The Tanakh was not written in English, nor were the Dead Sea scrolls. For that matter the whole English Bible was translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic as in the NT Jesus spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic. All we have are the English words that come from the definitions of the Hebrew and Aramaic. Even the Greek has to be equivalent of both.
I never claimed I was a Hebrew scholar, but I do try to take what the English Bible teaches back to the original Hebrew meaning of words as best I can as far as understanding the original definitions of certain words, especially when our English words have so many definitions for the same word in how it is used. English is the hardest language to learn just for that reason.
Libertarian free will as free mortal agents can make our own decisions and are not subject to the will or determination of another. One can freely chose or not chose to do something. It's a conscience choice without outside influence. Adam and Eve did not use libertarian free will as Adam and Eve disobeyed God as they were deceived in believing a lie.
Did Cain have a choice to do good?
Absolutely Yes.
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7
God desires for us today, who have His Spirit, to rule over sin in our flesh and to do good and not evil.
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
Jesus says it this way —
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
1. Please explain what a freewill offering is.
Leviticus 7:16
Apparently you do not agree with the following explanation:
A free-will offering (nedabah) simply pledges voluntarily a certain animal for a peace offering, with the formula, “ Behold, this animal I devote for a peace offering.” Hence, if the animal in question dies, or is stolen, or has otherwise become disqualified for sacrifice, the obligation ceases, since it does not extend beyond the animal thus devoted.
source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/leviticus/7-16.htm
As I've already posted...
Free Will and Voluntary is the same...
free will
noun
- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Sinonimi:
volition
independence
self-determination
self-sufficiency
autonomy
spontaneity
freedom
liberty
voluntarily
willingly
readily
freely
spontaneously
without reluctance
without being forced
without being asked
without being encouraged
of one's own accord
of one's own volition
of one's own choosing
by one's own preference
Contrari:
under duress
- (especially of a donation) voluntary.
************************************************
Thanks.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
then they are, of necessity... ABLE to choose between good and evil ...
Even unsaved person could do good deeds...
The N.T. explains that these good works, however, do not save us...
Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The above clearly explains that even if we do the works of the law, which are all good deeds according to the plan of God...we will not be saved.
So...even when not saved...man was able to accomplish good deeds.
Free will must be defined by the bible...NOT BY MAN.
Man's definitions is what confuses Christianity.
Christianity is a revelation from God...
NOT a teaching by men.
You mentioned Trinity...
The word TRINITY is defined in the bible...
MEN cannot change that meaning,,,
or it has NO MEANING.
Ditto for Free Will...
If it has more than one biblical meaning...
then it has no meaning and is of no value to us.
Happily for us...Free Will means being able to choose between two moral alternatives...just as the bible describes.
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Agreed.
Adam and Eve had libertarian free will before the fall.
Could you show us, with scripture, WHEN this libertarian free will was taken away from us by God?
Could you show us that libertarian free will was one of the preternatural gifts given to Adam and Eve?
Isn’t it sad, that we are here talking in circles, about words and terms that are not found in the Bible.
It’s just divisive.
This is why I was hoping to establish some common guidelines with the defining of biblical words and terms.
It seems that Calvinist’s have developed a whole glossary of man made words and terms to go along with the teachings of Calvinism.
What a huge waste of time.
Meanwhile the word of God, the scriptures, the doctrine of Christ, never gets discussed.
Satan must just love it, when he can get God’s children sidetracked with arguing over unbiblical words and terms.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Preternatural gifts:
Those gifts given by God to the first man,,,,
above and beyond what is natural....
Some call them the supernatural gifts:
Immortality
Commuion with God.
Well-being
Stewardship of the Earth...
Can't think of any more right now.
Free Will was NOT a preternatural gift.
It was a normal gift that we still enjoy.
Tomorrow....
P.S. When we wander into strange territory...
strange words are to be found.