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Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

JLB said:
Maybe you believe Jesus is a literal lamb and not the Messiah.
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It is not about what I believe, it is about what scripture says. You drove that point home. The Messiah is not a Passover Lamb. One is a man anointed by God and the other is an animal killed and eaten. You have repeatedly challenged me for scripture containing the words “Total Depravity” or any other phrase that I use which was not a direct, literal biblical quote. Where is your direct literal quote to support all of your claims.
 
atpollard said:
TULIP" is in scripture. It has always been in scripture. Only the Acronym is new.
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So far we don’t find the term “Total Depravity” in scripture, so we don’t really know biblically speaking what it means or refers to, other than extra biblical definitions and explanations.


We know for sure that Cain was given the God given ability to have the choice to do well, or to sin, because God pointed out to him that he should rule over sin.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


If Cain had the God given ability to rule over sin, and to do good, but chose not to, how does that fit the narrative of “Total Depravity”?


Since I don’t have a biblical reference of the term “Total Depravity”, how do I know what it means?

Where do I go to find out what Total Depravity means?


How would a Christian who was studying the scriptures, searching them out to be a good Berean, find out what the term
“Total Depravity” means to the born again Christian?



JLB
 
atpollard said:
Romans 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
  • “THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Why are you adding to scripture with your man made doctrines. What verse actually SAYS that “Man has the God given ability to choose good or evil”?


  • the word “man” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “has” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “God” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “given” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “ability” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “choose” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “good” appears nowhere in that verse.
  • the word “evil” appears nowhere in that verse.
So how does that verse support your man made doctrine which contradicts the explicit teaching of Romans and Ephesians?
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If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


Who was the Lord speaking to ?


A man
An animal
An angel
A demon
Other



JLB
 
JLB said:
The doctrine of Christ is for Christians.
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The other name for Calvinism (or Reformed Theology) is “The Doctrines of Grace” ... for those whose salvation is a gift of God’s Grace.

What is the doctrine of Christ?

Are you claiming that Catholics and Methodists (Wesleyan Arminians) and Presbyterians (Reformed Calvinists) are not Christians?
 
atpollard said:
The Messiah is not a Passover Lamb.
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The Messiah is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!.
John 1:29


If you don’t believe Jesus is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, then that’s your choice to believe.



JLB
 
atpollard said:
The other name for Calvinism (or Reformed Theology) is “The Doctrines of Grace” ... for those whose salvation is a gift of God’s Grace.

What is the doctrine of Christ?

Are you claiming that Catholics and Methodists (Wesleyan Arminians) and Presbyterians (Reformed Calvinists) are not Christians?
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Christians are Christians.


If a person chooses to be called Calvinist, or Methodist, or Baptist, that is their choice, and what they are is between them and God.... because that’s their choice.



JLB
 
JLB said:
If you don’t believe Jesus is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, then that’s your choice to believe.
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And if you believe that the Lamb of God is the same as the lambs eaten at a Passover feast, then that is your choice.
 
atpollard said:
Being given a command does not prove ability to obey.
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God was directly saying to Cain... you should rule over it, is what proves he has the ability to rule over it.



JLB
 
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atpollard said:
What is the doctrine of Christ?
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The teachings of Christ in the New Testament.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


It’s the law of Christ that governs the New Covenant.




JLB
 
atpollard said:
And all men choose evil ... “THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;”
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How about Noah?


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


Abraham?


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

This is where Abraham was justified by faith.


And what more shall I say?

For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Hebrews 11:32-40


Where is the idea of Total Depravity in these great hero’s of faith, whom the scriptures say... the world is not worthy?




JLB
 
If the doctrines of Christ are the teachings of Christ in the New Testament, then this is part of the doctrines of Christ:

[Romans 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written,
  • "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS,
  • NOT EVEN ONE;
  • 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
  • THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
  • 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE,
  • TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
  • THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
  • THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
That is what scripture says. NONE = good. ALL = bad. Total Depravity is a theological term invented by people why believe that Scripture meant what it said (all means all and none means none). If you prefer it from the lips of Jesus, then ...

[John 3:19-21 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and
  • men loved the darkness rather than the Light, (Jesus = the Light)
  • for their deeds were evil. ("their" = men)
  • 20 "For everyone who does evil (which Romans tells us is everyone that is not born from above)
  • hates the Light, (hates Jesus)
  • and does not come to the Light (does not come to Jesus)
  • for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (unsaved men fear God because they do evil)
  • 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (the deeds of the righteous atr not from their "free will choice", Scripture says they were "wrought [created or formed] in God").
In case there was any doubt that this applies to EVERY SAINT as well ...

[Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And
  • you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
  • 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world,
  • according to the prince of the power of the air, (we walked under the power of Satan)
  • of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (slaves to sin)
  • 3 Among them we too all formerly lived (applies to ALL the saints ... all means ALL)
  • in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh (depravity of the flesh)
  • and of the mind, (depravity of the mind)
  • and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (depravity of the spirit)

... which teaches that ALL MEN start out evil.
 
JLB said:
How about Noah?
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Already answered by God:

[Romans 3:10 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Which word is unclear?


[John 3:21 NASB] 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Philippians 2:13 NASB] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

Evil comes from men.
Good comes from God.

So what about Noah?
 
atpollard said:
What verse actually SAYS that “Man has the God given ability to choose good or evil”?
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And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Joshua 24:15



If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7


God said to Cain that sins desire was for him, but that he should rule over it.


Cain had the ability to rule over sin.


Cain did not do well.


Abel on the other hand was righteous.


By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. Hebrews 11:4

  • through which he obtained witness that he was righteous,




JLB
 
atpollard said:
THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS,
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Abel was righteous.


By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. Hebrews 11:4

  • through which he obtained witness that he was righteous,



JLB
 
atpollard said:
So what about Noah?
Click to expand...


Noah was righteous.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7



JLB
 
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