Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[for_his_glory]

You assume that I do not understand your arguments. That is not the case. First, I do believe man has free will. I also believe that without a miracle of God that man has a fallen nature. Our free will is a slave to our sinful heart. Therefore, man has the freedom to do whatever he wants and EVERYTHING that the sinful heart and mind and flesh of man wants draws man away from God rather than towards God.

I believe that the cure for this is simple. God performs a miracle. God commits an act of undeserved favoritism (GRACE) upon men that hate Him. God gives them a new heart that now desires God. God empowers them to transform their mind. God grants them strength to break the chains of the flesh that entices them back into the world. Those who have received this miracle are utterly transformed and will obey the commands of God, joyfully. Those that have not received this miracle cannot create their own miracle and transform themselves.

We are free to do what we want, and our wants are slaves to either sin or righteousness.

It is not that I do not see what you see. I just see the rest of the verses and believe that you have reached a false conclusion.

What I have vehemently argued is nothing more than that the PHRASE “free will” does not appear in scripture in any description of the relationship between God and Man.

It is like baptizing infants ... it is a simple fact that there is no verse that states that an infant was baptized. One must read where scripture says that a “household” was baptized and conclude that there was an infant in the household.

In the same way, one must read where God issues a command and conclude that people had the free will to obey or disobey. I disagree with your conclusion.

OK, we agree that man has free will.

The miracle/mystery of God is His grace freely given to those who are in a fallen state of sin that will accept His free gift which is Christ Jesus who came to call the sinners to repentance, Ephesians 2:8-10; Matthew 9:9-13. Christ is our faith as faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Romans 1:17, but many choose to not here God calling them to His salvation through Christ. Deuteronomy Chapters 27 and 28 teaches us of God's cursing us or blessing us by the free will we have to chose to obey God or deny God.

I agree as freewill is a slave to a sinful heart. The flesh will always sin for that is its nature because of the fall of Adam and Eve who were the first one's to display freewill as they disobeyed God's command, Romans Chapter 8; Galatians 5:16-18; Genesis 2:16, 17; 3:1-13. This is why we have to be Spiritually born again/renewed/transformed as we die to self and live for God, John 3:5-7; Colossians 3:1-4; Galatians 2:20, 21.

The cure for sin is found in John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 1; Acts 2:37-39 and Colossians Chapter 3.

I agree we are free to do what we want as we have two choices, God's cursing us God blessing us.

The rest of what verses are you speaking of as what I have given throughout all my post are about the freewill choices we make. If they are not then please show me the scriptures I have erred in so we can discuss them.

We do not vehemently argue in order to make a point as that will get one banned from the thread if you go back and read ToS 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5. These forums are not an "I'm right, your wrong arguments, but discussions as we speak to each other in the unity of love even if we disagree with each other.

God has issued 613 commands in what He gave to Moses on Mt Sinai for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

Did all of Israel obey God's commands, no as even today many have not repented from turning away from God. We can read in Rev 7:4-8 of the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

As you said and I quote you, "We are free to do what we want, and our wants are slaves to either sin or righteousness." Dan, Ephraim and many from every generation Jew and Gentile up to today and until Christ returns exercises their freewill by the condition of their heart. We either accept Christ and His commands, or we reject Christ and His commands. Choose you this day in whom you will serve.

 

[JLB]

Did Cain?

This brings up a good discussion point.


I believe Cain acted out of his own choice, his freedom to choose, his volition to act, as described in Genesis 4:7; to choose to do good or to do evil.


If you believe this is not the case, then did God force Cain to murder Able?

Where does the idea of total depravity come from, since the actual term “total depravity” isn’t found in scripture.


We see what the truth is, what the scripture says.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”
And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. Genesis 4:7-11


And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”


I just don’t believe God forces Cain to murder his brother Able, then turned around and cursed him for it.


I believe God warned Cain, and actually imparted faith and grace to Cain, gave him the strength to rule over sin.


Cain chose to act in his own volition because he was angry with Able.


What are your thoughts about what God said to Cain?


And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”




JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree as freewill is a slave to a sinful heart. The flesh will always sin for that is its nature because of the fall of Adam and Eve who were the first one's to display freewill as they disobeyed God's command,

I see that the flesh has sin, and it desires to gratify it’s lustful cravings.

However, that doesn’t make man “totally depraved”.

I don’t see Adam and Eve had sinned other than the one transgression in the garden.

I don’t see where Cain, did other sins.


How about Enoch?

He lived an amazing life and still is.


I gues the point I’m making is; just because a person commits a sin, how does that make them “totally depraved”?

Don’t they have the moral restraint to not commit other sins?

What does that say about their volition; their ability to choose.


I believe each person should be evaluated by their actions rather than taking all of humanity and lumping them into the catagory of “totally depraved”.

Now, this certainly doesn’t insinuate that man can “save himself”.


Then when we bring the discussion into the realm of the born again Christian, are Christians “totally depraved” if they sin?


Who is it that sets these boundaries and decides that man is totally depraved?


God says to unregenerate Cain...


And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”




JLB

 

[atpollard]

However, that doesn’t make man “totally depraved”.

“Totally Depraved” is not a statement about the quantity of man’s depravity, but the width of the depravity. Man is depraved in his HEART that desires to be his own god. Man is depraved in his MIND that thinks thoughts contrary to the mind of God. Man is depraved in his FLESH that lusts after sinful pleasure. That is the TOTAL of “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”.

 

[PeterJens]

“Totally Depraved” is not a statement about the quantity of man’s depravity, but the width of the depravity. Man is depraved in his HEART that desires to be his own god. Man is depraved in his MIND that thinks thoughts contrary to the mind of God. Man is depraved in his FLESH that lusts after sinful pleasure. That is the TOTAL of “TOTAL DEPRAVITY”.

There is an interesting problem for me in this idea, total depravity.

The reason why we desire God is because we know the righteous way and desire it.
To know and be aware of it, to aspire towards it and fail, describes a need and an acknowledgement of failure, which is not total depravity but the image of God tainted by a lack of communion that leads us to sin.

A moving train is not a bad thing, going down the wrong train tracks is.
Jesus appears to be saying, mankind can be cleansed, forgiven, set right, but without the right train tracks will always end up in the lake of fire.

The sermon on the mount is the train track, laid out by Christ, but only works for those cleansed and purified through the cross. But we will never arrive at His image and Kingdom unless we both accept purification and the process of transformation through obedience and faith, simply because of the nature of how sin distorts our hearts, motivations and direction that have to be all reset.

 

[JLB]

“Totally Depraved” is not a statement about the quantity of man’s depravity, but the width of the depravity.

I hear you.

Maybe you could post the scriptures that use the phrase “width of man’s depravity”.

So we can see what the scriptures themselves are teaching us.

It seems when you add to the scriptures with extra biblical phases and terms, you have to create more extra biblical phrases and terms to explain what they mean.

If we are going to discuss what the scriptures say, then let’s all use scripture, with the words and terms the scriptures use.

Adding extra biblical words and terms from Calvinism or Arminianism or whatever other “ism’s” there are out there only causes division, not unity.


Here is my scripture where the Lord spoke to Cain and told him he should rule over sin.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”


If the Lord said this to ungodly Cain, then how much more should this apply to all people?

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I see that the flesh has sin, and it desires to gratify it’s lustful cravings.

However, that doesn’t make man “totally depraved”.

I never said anything about being totally depraved or even used the phrase "totally depraved". What I basically said is that sin is sin and Spirit is Spirit and the two can not mix as one is contrary against the other. The flesh is a hostile enemy against the spirit and the two will always battle each other until the day Christ returns. Their are a lot of good people in the world that love and do for others, but yet are none of Christ own.

 

[atpollard]

Maybe you could post the scriptures that use the phrase “width of man’s depravity”.

No thank you.
I was just correctly defining a term for you.
Your rejection of any phrase not found in scripture makes discussion nearly impossible for me. How can we speak of typologies by only quoting verses ... yet the Passover and the Ark and the resurrection of Lazarus are all typologies of the Salvation by grace through faith and of God that was to come to a sinful people.
We have no 'lingua franca' ... no common language with which to communicate.

 

[JLB]

Your rejection of any phrase not found in scripture makes discussion nearly impossible for me.

Why discuss extra biblical theories in a biblical discussion?


JLB

 

[JLB]

How can we speak of typologies by only quoting verses

Typologies are biblical.


JLB

 

[JLB]

We have no 'lingua franca' ... no common language with which to communicate.

Typologies are biblical.

The Passover lamb pointed to Christ.

The Ark pointed to Christ.

Moses, the Red Sea, and the cloud were Old Testament types that pointed to Christ, baptism in water and baptism with the Spirit.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

If we are going to discuss what the scriptures say, then let’s all use scripture, with the words and terms the scriptures use.

[Romans 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written,

• "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS,
• NOT EVEN ONE;
• 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
• THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
• 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE,
• TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
• THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
• THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

That is what scripture says. NONE = good. ALL = bad. Total Depravity is a theological term invented by people why believe that Scripture meant what it said (all means all and none means none). If you prefer it from the lips of Jesus, then ...

[John 3:19-21 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and

• men loved the darkness rather than the Light, (Jesus = the Light)
• for their deeds were evil. ("their" = men)
• 20 "For everyone who does evil (which Romans tells us is everyone that is not born from above)
• hates the Light, (hates Jesus)
• and does not come to the Light (does not come to Jesus)
• for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (unsaved men fear God because they do evil)
• 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (the deeds of the righteous atr not from their "free will choice", Scripture says they were "wrought [created or formed] in God").

In case there was any doubt that this applies to EVERY SAINT as well ...

[Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB] 1 And

• you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
• 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world,
• according to the prince of the power of the air, (we walked under the power of Satan)
• of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (slaves to sin)
• 3 Among them we too all formerly lived (applies to ALL the saints ... all means ALL)
• in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh (depravity of the flesh)
• and of the mind, (depravity of the mind)
• and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (depravity of the spirit)

"TULIP" is in scripture. It has always been in scripture. Only the Acronym is new.

 

[atpollard]

The Passover lamb pointed to Christ.

Not if we can only quote and underline verses it isn't. Then we have no way to prove typologies. As you are so fond of requesting ... where is the verse that says "typology"? The word isn't found in scripture.

 

[atpollard]

The miracle/mystery of God is His grace freely given to those who are in a fallen state of sin that will accept His free gift which is Christ Jesus who came to call the sinners to repentance, Ephesians 2:8-10; Matthew 9:9-13.

Where is this taught?
Where does scripture describe the condition "that will accept His free gift"?

 

[JLB]

That is what scripture says. NONE = good.

Only God is good.


Man has the God given ability to choose good or evil.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Genesis 4:7


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not if we can only quote and underline verses it isn't.

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!.
John 1:29


JLB

 

[atpollard]

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!.
John 1:29


JLB

Still no verse that says the word “typology”, so John must have been speaking literally (perhaps spiritually) with no reference to Passover stated in that verse.

(Now that we have traded places, your part in our usual conversations is actually MUCH easier. I see why you enjoy demanding verses and exact words for everything. ? )

 

[JLB]

Still no verse that says the word “typology”, so John must have been speaking literally (perhaps spiritually) with no reference to Passover stated in that verse.

Maybe you believe Jesus is a literal lamb and not the Messiah.

That’s your choice.

The reason it’s your choice to believe that, is because you have a free will; the God given ability to choose to do well or not.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Now that we have traded places, your part in our usual conversations is actually MUCH easier. I see why you enjoy demanding verses and exact words for everything. ? )

I don’t intend to discuss non biblical words and terms that come from Calvinism or Arminianism, or any other ism for that matter.


The doctrine of Christ is for Christians.

Calvinism is for Calvinists.

Catholicism is for Catholics.

Arminianism is for Aminianists.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Man has the God given ability to choose good or evil.

Romans 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

• “THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

Why are you adding to scripture with your man made doctrines. What verse actually SAYS that “Man has the God given ability to choose good or evil”?

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”
Genesis 4:7

• the word “man” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “has” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “God” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “given” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “ability” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “choose” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “good” appears nowhere in that verse.
• the word “evil” appears nowhere in that verse.

So how does that verse support your man made doctrine which contradicts the explicit teaching of Romans and Ephesians?