Four views of the "Endtimes"

[Willie T]

Man, that was a fantastic book, TOB. I'm glad you brought it to the attention of the forum.... otherwise no one might check it out.

 

[JLB]

Did you rush to turn it off at the first part of that statement at 56:20? What does he go right on to say?
You know what he said, don't you? Yes, you sure do.

He goes on to say that you would be hypocritical to say you were working in a kingdom you don't believe had appeared yet..... referring back to what he said that you cannot believe in a kingdom that is here and now (as Jesus said several times, that it was), IF you claim that such kingdom will not come until after that rapture you're waiting for to occur at some future date.

The kingdom of God is at hand.

However, we are waiting for the fullness of God's Kingdom to manifest in this natural realm, whereby all the other rule and authority will be put down, and we will receive immortal bodies that will never die and shine like the sun.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

Here's the order:

The Coming of Christ
The Resurrection/Rapture
THEN comes the end, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Well if he doesn't believe in the Rapture, then he doesn't believe in the Resurrection.

Huh? What do you believe JLB?

Again, here is this man's quote from a live teaching, as you can listen for yourself.

Word for word.

Starting at 56:20

"If you hold to any of the futurist views, you can not operate and live in the kingdom"

Did that statement offend you?
What he continued to say was that "if you are waiting for the kingdom to arrive" and operating in the supernatural that is inconsistent with what scripture teaches. Then he said, "We do it all the time"
but it is inconsistent with the belief that the kingdom has not arrived.
In other words if one believes in miracles and supernatural spiritual gifts, then the kingdom Must have arrived, that is what that person should realize.

The Resurrection and Rapture are One Event.

YEAH, He believes exactly what 1 Thess. says. Those who are dead will be resurrected and those who are alive will be caught up and meet the Lord in the air. That's what he says in his book. And he quotes Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke, who say the very same thing.

 

[JLB]

I guess the question I would have for you JLB; why do you through many of your posts assert that the Kingdom of God in Christ has not been established yet and will be set up sometime in the future?

The Kingdom of God has been established.

The Kingdom of God physically and completely being established in the natural realm where it can be seen along with our King is clearly in the future.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

When all the wicked will be removed and only the Righteous will remain who have been given an immortal body that will never die, and shine like the sun, whereby everlasting righteousness will be ushered in and we will all rest with Him for a literal 1000 years.


He Himself puts an end to all rule and authority.

Then the knowledge of the glory of the lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

And the Kingdoms of the world will have become the kingdoms of our lord and His Christ.

When He Himself will appear to all men and destroy the lawless one with the brightness of His Coming.

That's when the Kingdom of God will fully manifest on earth.

When as it is on earth, just as it is in heaven, then God's Kingdom will have fully manifested here on earth.

Until then we are hoping for that which is unseen.

faith is the substance of things hoped for...


JLB

 

[JLB]

Huh? What do you believe JLB?

I believe like Paul.

The Rapture and resurrection are one Event whereby we will all be gathered to Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air on His way to Jerusalem.

And we will ever be with Him.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Until then we are hoping for that which is unseen.

faith is the substance of things hoped for...

JLB

Yes, Faith the the substance of things hoped for, but faith is also the evidence for that which is not seen.

Jesus said the the Kingdom comes not by observation (Luke 17:20). Therefore it is not seen, only known.

But just to be clear JLB, nobody here is telling you to stop hoping. Hope on to your hearts content, but please do not presume to know what evidence that Faith has revealed in my heart.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe like Paul.

The Rapture and resurrection are one Event whereby we will all be gathered to Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air on His way to Jerusalem.

And we will ever be with Him.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


JLB

I agree with you about this and so does Jonathan Welton, Matthew Henry, and Adam Clarke.

 

[Willie T]

I agree with you about this and so does Jonathan Welton, Matthew Henry, and Adam Clarke.

As does most anyone who has carefully read the Bible.

 

[JLB]

Yes, Faith the the substance of things hoped for, but faith is also the evidence for that which is not seen.

Jesus said the the Kingdom comes not by observation (Luke 17:20). Therefore it is not seen, only known.

But just to be clear JLB, nobody here is telling you to stop hoping. Hope on to your hearts content, but please do not presume to know what evidence that Faith has revealed in my heart.

The evidence is not seen, Brother.

Which is my point.

The Kingdom of God will come in the future, and be fully established for all to see, along with Jesus.

If you still have faith for it, then you are still hoping for it like the rest of us.

For hope that is seen is not hope.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24

I like Paul, am waiting for it with perseverance.


JLB

 

[JLB]

As does most anyone who has carefully read the Bible.

Preterist don't.

They teach that the Resurrection is past, and that Jesus came in 70 AD.

They read and know the Bible.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Preterist don't.

They teach that the Resurrection is past, and that Jesus came in 70 AD.

They read and know the Bible.


JLB

Preterist are a confused bunch. They get their understanding from National Geographic and Historic archives.......... Then try to use confused mental understanding to twist and tie scriptures to past events. The rest they can't explain, they call it hyperbole.............. The sun, Moon and stars were not really suppose to vanish........ it's just an expression...... yea.... and everything else we don't want to believe in scripture is just an expression of hyperbol, a bla.......... and bla... and more bla...

 

[Willie T]

Well, they don't read it for me.

 

[Willie T]

Preterist are a confused bunch. They get their understanding from National Geographic and Historic archives.......... Then try to use confused mental understanding to twist and tie scriptures to past events. The rest they can't explain, they call it hyperbole.............. The sun, Moon and stars were not really suppose to vanish........ it's just an expression...... yea.... and everything else we don't want to believe in scripture is just an expression of hyperbol, a bla.......... and bla... and more bla...

I'd tread a little softer there. What were the sun and moon and stars in Joseph's dream? A literal sun and moon and stars?

 

[JLB]

Preterist are a confused bunch. They get their understanding from National Geographic and Historic archives.......... Then try to use confused mental understanding to twist and tie scriptures to past events. The rest they can't explain, they call it hyperbole.............. The sun, Moon and stars were not really suppose to vanish........ it's just an expression...... yea.... and everything else we don't want to believe in scripture is just an expression of hyperbol, a bla.......... and bla... and more bla...

That's a big thumbs up!


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd tread a little softer there. What were the sun and moon in Joseph's dream? A literal sun and moon?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Was Jesus teaching His disciples privately about a dream He had, or the literal end of the age and His Coming to gather His people at the resurrection?

Just because someone had a dream about the sun and moon and stars, does that mean every reference about the sun moon and stars are symbolic.

I don't know about you, but it's very clear in this passage...

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." 10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?"
Genesis 37:9-10

The sun, moon and stars bowed down. The answer is that his family would bow down. The scripture is clear.

Not so in Jesus' teaching about His Coming and the end of the age.

JLB

 

[Willie T]

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Was Jesus teaching His disciples privately about a dream He had, or the literal end of the age and His Coming to gather His people at the resurrection?

Just because someone had a dream about the sun and moon and stars, does that mean every reference about the sun moon and stars are symbolic.

I don't know about you, but it's very clear in this passage...

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." 10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?"
Genesis 37:9-10

The sun, moon and stars bowed down. The answer is that his family would bow down. The scripture is clear.

Not so in Jesus' teaching about His Coming and the end of the age.

JLB

Yes, you're right, it is.... Authorities and nations.

 

[reba]

The thread will not close but name callers can be removed from the thread... Disagree but be nice...

 

[Deborah13]

Preterist don't.

They teach that the Resurrection is past, and that Jesus came in 70 AD.

They read and know the Bible.


JLB

Well then I guess the people who believe that the resurrection and catching up of those alive and the coming of the Lord, is still in the future are not preterists, are they?

 

[JLB]

Well then I guess the people who believe that the resurrection and catching up of those alive and the coming of the Lord, is still in the future are not preterists, are they?

No maam.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'd tread a little softer there. What were the sun and moon and stars in Joseph's dream? A literal sun and moon and stars?

I hope your not defending Preterism. Some of your other post are just awesome, and I would hate you to have something messed up like that in your doctrine which has been thought provoking and awesome.

JLB is a Post Tribber and I am a Pre-Tribber. We can go back and forth until the cows come home......... (If there be any cows)

There are still some very key and important things we both believe though and preterism is no where to be found in our solid foundational doctrines.

Joseph had a dream about the Sun, moon and stars. What God does to them is no dream. Means hearts fail them when they see the whole universe just wiped out before their eyes, the stars rolled up as a scroll.

A whole planet hiding from the face of the lamb and hearts failing over the signs that follow the 7th seal is nobody's dream............. It's real, and will happen.

I have watched enough preterist video's and teachings to know that these folks need help. One guy explaining the Hail mentioned in Rev was a historic event and he tied it to some event recorded in History............ The clown did not mention the fire mixed with Hail though, sort of skipped that part. opps.

Another video showing death tolls to prove the time this earth has never seen, or yet seen mentioned by Jesus and Danial happened long ago as the death record was high.

The Worse this earth has seen is when God destroyed every breathing creature and all of man in a flood....................... The time coming will exceed Noah's event. Since we are still here................. oppps......

anyway, I am not getting in a post-pre trib battle with JLB......... We both already have pages of that in different threads.

Examine the doctrine out....... Listen to JLB.