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Four views of the "Endtimes"

Are you calling this a good book when the author claims.

Welton claims that all Christians should be reclaiming the following practices from the occult as part of their normal Christian walk.

Reading auras: The ability to see invisible energy that surrounds a person and learning information about that person based on the color or form of his or her auraClairvoyance:

The ability to perceive extrasensory information about an object or event from the past, present, or futureClairaudience: The ability to hear sounds, music, and voices sent from the spirit realmClairsentience:

The ability to sense smells sent from the spirit realm, along with tastes and touchesThe use of power objects: Physical objects, such as crystals and amulets, that contain supernatural powers

Sounds straight out of the occult

tob
 
turnorburn said:
Are you calling this a good book when the author claims.

Welton claims that all Christians should be reclaiming the following practices from the occult as part of their normal Christian walk.

Reading auras: The ability to see invisible energy that surrounds a person and learning information about that person based on the color or form of his or her auraClairvoyance:

The ability to perceive extrasensory information about an object or event from the past, present, or futureClairaudience: The ability to hear sounds, music, and voices sent from the spirit realmClairsentience:

The ability to sense smells sent from the spirit realm, along with tastes and touchesThe use of power objects: Physical objects, such as crystals and amulets, that contain supernatural powers

Sounds straight out of the occult

tob
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Just checked out His book Normal Christainity................ I am down with his wanting us to walk in more power of the Holy Spirit.

I tried to give him the benifit of the doubt, there are lots of Anti-Anointing believers all over the place willing to bash anyone who walks in the power of God.

Well, sadly this stuff is actually in His book................. I can see why the guy is a preterist, but that is the least of his problems..............
 
Move this to ET second and third reading it was not as bad as i first thought... Be respectful the ice is getting thin...

2.4: Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
 
JLB said:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Was Jesus teaching His disciples privately about a dream He had, or the literal end of the age and His Coming to gather His people at the resurrection?

Just because someone had a dream about the sun and moon and stars, does that mean every reference about the sun moon and stars are symbolic.

I don't know about you, but it's very clear in this passage...

9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." 10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?"
Genesis 37:9-10

The sun, moon and stars bowed down. The answer is that his family would bow down. The scripture is clear.

Not so in Jesus' teaching about His Coming and the end of the age.

JLB
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I believe the sun, moon, and stars are the same sun, moon, and stars in Joseph's dream and Jacob confirmed. The nation of Israel. Did they fall? Paul says they did.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
But did they fall from heaven? What was heaven to the Jews? This is in Jewish thought and relates to the temple as well. But what kind of language is used in the OT...
Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
Isaiah is not speaking to the literal heavens and earth, he is speaking to the nation of Israel.
Jer 22:29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
Jeremiah is prophesying to Judah, they are to go into captivity in Babylon.
Act 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
 
I would love to see a thread where we all act like the children of God that we claim to be, where we can calmly and politely discuss the differences of opinion and belief instead of fearing it as an attack against your faith that you feel you must defend.

The title of this thread and the video in the OP is the four views of the end times. I have heard of the futurist view of the end times, and through this board I have heard some of the preterist thought, but the OP discusses four different views. I think he said one was Idealism? And what was the other he mentioned? I do not recall. I have never heard of these other end time views before. I might have to go back and listen to the video again.

Maybe we all could simply discuss what these four end time views represented or what beliefs each view held. What each view agreed upon, and the flaws we find with each of the views. Maybe all four views each hold some piece of the truth depending upon our maturity in our Christ Faith walk. Maybe each view on its own lacks something or seems incomplete in and of itself, but truth is only discovered as we walk forward in our journey through Faith in Christ, and I believe it is possible that we find truth in each of these views as we move forward in our walk with Christ.

When I first came to the Lord, and for many years after I was solidly in the futurist camp soaking up all the end time prophecy stuff. But that was when I knew of the Lord, and the promise of His return. But when the day came that the Lord was made known within my heart, that view was no longer clear to me, and yet at the same time, my interest in end time prophecy kind of dried up. I became more interested in understanding my relationship to the Lord in the here and now; As Jesus said, take no thought for tomorrow. Yet as I continued in my walk with the Lord, and seeking after the things of kingdom of Heaven and the knowledge of Christ, and only as Christ was reveled in my heart have I come to understand the significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, and its fulfillment of certain prophecy.

I am at peace with my current non understanding and incomplete view of what the supposed end time prophecy events should look like, but I do trust in the Lord. I have found through my walk of faith that my understanding has taken me from the viewpoint of futurism all the way to that of preterism, and yet it seems no different to me than how I might perceive the view of my surroundings as If I had just hiked 300 miles from the Sierra Nevada mountain's to the Pacific coast. It's all part of the journey.

If I were to make a guess, I would confidently say that there are none here as members on this board or any elsewhere that lean toward the preterist view that did not first believe on the hope of the future, and in futurism. When one is drawn to the Lord, they first come to knowledge of the Lord and the promise of his coming and salvation, and because the only walk we have known is after the flesh we naturally look toward future events as fulfillment of end times prophecy because it fills a need to validate our faith and justify our beliefs.

But when the Spirit of the Lord has arisen within our hearts, and after the Spirit we begin seeking after those things that pertain to the kingdom of God. Having not studied these different end time views before, I believe the preterist view to be the understanding of the fulfillment and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in Christ, and it is the view of the foundation of that kingdom. I would think we should all hope to know and understand the foundation upon which we do or hope to stand. The wise man built his house upon the rock; the foolish upon the sand, hoping upon a future with no understanding of his foundation.

A futurist hopes to to be grafted into the vine, and then waits for the promise of that day to come. A preterist hopes to be grafted into the vine just the same, but is comforted in knowing and understanding and glorying in the root to which he is grafted in, as if he has already been grafted in.

So in deference to the OP and the four different views of the end times, could we discuss what these four views are. Have you found yourself agreeing with these different views at different times in your walk with Christ? What might you have learned as you moved from one view to another. And have you sought after the foundation to know the rock upon which you stand? If you flat out reject the premise of preterism, then are you rejecting the foundation of the kingdom, and in the rejecting the foundation, rejecting the chief cornerstone as well? Is someone who can not seemingly mature beyond the common futurist view point, who only hopes for the promise but never realizes the promise of the hope, has Jesus become unto them a stone of stumbling and the rock that the builders rejected?
 
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Deborah13 said:
I believe the sun, moon, and stars are the same sun, moon, and stars in Joseph's dream and Jacob confirmed. The nation of Israel. Did they fall? Paul says they did.
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"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

the sun will be darkened - the sun will be literally darkened and not give off any light as a sign in the heavens.
the moon will not give its light; The moon reflects the light from the sun, so if the sun is darkened, then of course the moon will also not give off any light as well.

the stars will fall from heaven - The last time I looked Israel as a nation wasn't positioned in the heavens.

In Josephs dream the sheaves like the sun, moon and stars, represent Jacob and his wife, and Joseph brothers.

Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?"

There we were, binding sheaves in the field. Then behold, my sheaf arose and also stood upright; and indeed your sheaves stood all around and bowed down to my sheaf." 8 And his brothers said to him, "Shall you indeed reign over us? Or shall you indeed have dominion over us?" So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words. 9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." 10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" Genesis 37:7-10


Bowing down before Joseph in the land of Egypt, is not the same as, the sun being darkened, and the moon also not giving off any light, and the stars falling from the heaven.

Jesus explained clearly that when the signs in the heavens and on earth begin to take place, men's hearts would fail them for fear.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luke 21:25-27

Deb I believe based on what Jesus taught, that these are two different things being taught to us from the scriptures.


Though I disagree with you in this matter, I still respect where you are coming from and love you as my sister in the Lord.

Bless you woman of God.


JLB
 
ezrider said:
When I first came to the Lord, and for many years after I was solidly in the futurist camp
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I had never heard of the term futurist or preterist, before I came to this Forum.

I think labeling people with these names tends to put them under an umbrella of certain ideas and beliefs that they may or may not consider to be true.

For me, Jesus' Resurrection was in the past, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture is future.

Jesus Coming is in the future.

Jesus came in the flesh once, and He will appear a second time at the end of the age, and raise us up on the last Day, which is in the future.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

For this belief, I am labeled a futurist.

For this belief I have been labeled a Dispensationalist.


JLB
 
I think we have to use some common sense in our supposed "understanding".

First of all, we all know, for a fact, that if our sun (just one of hundreds of thousands, by the way) ceased to give off light, we would have nothing to worry about..... the entire Earth, and everything on it (including us), would turn into a solid block of ice within a matter of minutes.

Then, we have all these heavenly bodies "falling". You understand gravitational forces and orbits. Do you seriously entertain even the slightest thought that they would each defy all laws of physics, and aim themselves in the direction of this tiny planet that is smaller than any of them?

And, even if they did something so utterly ridiculous, one or two hits from a couple of the BILLIONS of stars out there, and the Earth would be blown into smithereens. We, instantly, wouldn't have a thing to be worrying about, or having "our hearts fail" over. We would all be fried into Crispy Critters before we could even take a breath.

There is so much that is obviously figurative and alluding to purely Earthly societal occurrences, that it blows my mind that thinking men and women could swallow all this as a Star Wars scenario. There are literally HUNDREDS of things like this all through Scripture.
 
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ezrider said:
I would love to see a thread where we all act like the children of God that we claim to be, where we can calmly and politely discuss the differences of opinion and belief instead of fearing it as an attack against your faith that you feel you must defend.

The title of this thread and the video in the OP is the four views of the end times. I have heard of the futurist view of the end times, and through this board I have heard some of the preterist thought, but the OP discusses four different views. I think he said one was Idealism? And what was the other he mentioned? I do not recall. I have never heard of these other end time views before. I might have to go back and listen to the video again.

Maybe we all could simply discuss what these four end time views represented or what beliefs each view held. What each view agreed upon, and the flaws we find with each of the views. Maybe all four views each hold some piece of the truth depending upon our maturity in our Christ Faith walk. Maybe each view on its own lacks something or seems incomplete in and of itself, but truth is only discovered as we walk forward in our journey through Faith in Christ, and I believe it is possible that we find truth in each of these views as we move forward in our walk with Christ.

When I first came to the Lord, and for many years after I was solidly in the futurist camp soaking up all the end time prophecy stuff. But that was when I knew of the Lord, and the promise of His return. But when the day came that the Lord was made known within my heart, that view was no longer clear to me, and yet at the same time, my interest in end time prophecy kind of dried up. I became more interested in understanding my relationship to the Lord in the here and now; As Jesus said, take no thought for tomorrow. Yet as I continued in my walk with the Lord, and seeking after the things of kingdom of Heaven and the knowledge of Christ, and only as Christ was reveled in my heart have I come to understand the significance of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, and its fulfillment of certain prophecy.

I am at peace with my current non understanding and incomplete view of what the supposed end time prophecy events should look like, but I do trust in the Lord. I have found through my walk of faith that my understanding has taken me from the viewpoint of futurism all the way to that of preterism, and yet it seems no different to me than how I might perceive the view of my surroundings as If I had just hiked 300 miles from the Sierra Nevada mountain's to the Pacific coast. It's all part of the journey.

If I were to make a guess, I would confidently say that there are none here as members on this board or any elsewhere that lean toward the preterist view that did not first believe on the hope of the future, and in futurism. When one is drawn to the Lord, they first come to knowledge of the Lord and the promise of his coming and salvation, and because the only walk we have known is after the flesh we naturally look toward future events as fulfillment of end times prophecy because it fills a need to validate our faith and justify our beliefs.

But when the Spirit of the Lord has arisen within our hearts, and after the Spirit we begin seeking after those things that pertain to the kingdom of God. Having not studied these different end time views before, I believe the preterist view to be the understanding of the fulfillment and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in Christ, and it is the view of the foundation of that kingdom. I would think we should all hope to know and understand the foundation upon which we do or hope to stand. The wise man built his house upon the rock; the foolish upon the sand, hoping upon a future with no understanding of his foundation.

A futurist hopes to to be grafted into the vine, and then waits for the promise of that day to come. A preterist hopes to be grafted into the vine just the same, but is comforted in knowing and understanding and glorying in the root to which he is grafted in, as if he has already been grafted in.

So in deference to the OP and the four different views of the end times, could we discuss what these four views are. Have you found yourself agreeing with these different views at different times in your walk with Christ? What might you have learned as you moved from one view to another. And have you sought after the foundation to know the rock upon which you stand? If you flat out reject the premise of preterism, then are you rejecting the foundation of the kingdom, and in the rejecting the foundation, rejecting the chief cornerstone as well? Is someone who can not seemingly mature beyond the common futurist view point, who only hopes for the promise but never realizes the promise of the hope, has Jesus become unto them a stone of stumbling and the rock that the builders rejected?
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edited , The sowing of discord will stop one way or another reba
I am all for the power of God in Which Johnathan Welton talks about, but He goes into things that are straight from the new age folks. I got some material of his and had to see for myself if the accusations where true, they are true.

So anything this guy has to say, is corrupted. The whole thread is based on discussion about a guy who is way off scripturally edited

That should concern folks.

Kingdom of God:

I am not sure what a Futurist is, but JLB and I both believe the Kingdom of God is now here, already in the vine. We both speak in tongues and have laid hands on the sick that they may recover. We are not waiting for any power or Kingdom to come. We are not waiting for any redemption. The Rule of God is here now (Kingdom) enforced by the Power of the Holy Spirit and Word of God.

The earth can't continue forever and it's not going to get better. God will judge this planet and destroy every living thing off it who are not his.
 
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"ezrider,said ...I would love to see a thread where we all act like the children of God that we claim to be, where we can calmly and politely discuss the differences of opinion and belief instead of fearing it as an attack against your faith that you feel you must defend.

JLB, said Though I disagree with you in this matter, I still respect where you are coming from and love you as my sister in the Lord.


images
 
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So, Mike, is your opinion based on him doing anything that followers of God did not also do in the Bible?

Or is it just because you or I don't do those things?

If you feel he is doing something God-fearing men in the Bible didn't do, could you, specifically, detail those things?

Here's his teaching on Normal Christianity....

 
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Willie T said:
So, Mike, is your opinion based on him doing anything that followers of God did not also do in the Bible?

Or is it just because you or I don't do those things?

If you feel he is doing something God fearing men in the Bible didn't do, could you, specifically, detail those things?
Click to expand...

I went and downloaded his book School of Seers. I read it, it's only like 19 pages.
In the book is some things most believers would just freak out about. I am aware of the Anti-anointing believers preach (Antichrist) and aware of believers putting down people like Kenneth Copeland who is a awsome man of God.

So I read the book with wanting to find good.

He talked about seeing angels with swords............ Well, someone years back looked in my yard and saw angels standing guard around my door and house and they had swords. (I never saw them) Ok, check.

He talked about aura's around anointed folks. Just last week I was sharing a word with my wife and her friend and her friend just started to stare up at me. When I finshed she said, "I was not sure I was suppose to say this, but the Lord told me to tell you there was a green, yellow glow that flashed light around you as you spoke about certain things. Like something was around you.

I have heard that before in the past............ I suppose.

So I could relate to about everything in that book I read.

Now his other book He goes into deatail about amulets with power, and we should be able to read these aurar's. I could only find clipings of it.

Using crystal objects, smelling things in the spirit realm.......... He calls himself a rogue theologian. Who would call themselves that if they were right on scripture?

There is lots more, but I am not just going to dog on someone.

We are not to try to make gifts operate. Paul said desire spiritual gifts and they come as the Spirit wills.
According to Johnathan you have to flip the switch of faith to operate in these things, just turn the switch on.

I stay in belief 24/7 and we just don't flip a switch and expect God to do what we want. I don't pick how God is going to do something, but I know God will, without fail.

Johnathan tells us we need to operate in smelling things in the spirit and seeing these auror's. That is not what we are suppose to be doing. We don't choose to do that.

I am not putting the man down, He is just out there bad, and I believe he started off good, but youth and pride have clouded his judgement.
 
I need to watch the video, but if what he is says is mentioned. I cant join in I should be seeing auras. uhm I do have to told that. all I have to is start looking and using that "gift" I don't care. I was delivered from that. I always know what is going on that level where I want to or not. I try not to go into that. I don't think its real but I always have the thoughts.
 
reba said:
Brother Mike .. thanks for stating your thoughts with out going over the top :)
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edited

Jon did NOT say we are to go around, "operate[ing] in smelling things in the spirit and seeing these auror's." He said that we can, and should, be aware of God in all of our senses... seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, etc. Then, of course, there is thinking and dreaming,,, but even in those, we relate through our senses. God is not going to communicate with us in a manner we don't even possess. And all we possess are our senses.

I don't think much of people who stop short of fully quoting the intent of speakers and authors, and just select "juicy" parts to try and paint a false picture.

Admittedly, Jon has learned to open himself to experience things I never have, but to call him a witch or warlock who is into the occult is pretty distasteful to me.
 
I do not know what beliefs this guy holds closest to his heart, but that really does not matter to me and really should have no bearing on the topic of this thread. This thread is not about the individual Jonathan Welton, this thread is four different views of the end time as was presented in the video. We should feel free to discuss these different viewpoints, and I am interested in understanding a little bit more about each of them as I have never heard of some of them before.

To me, any attempt to make this topic about the man instead of the four views by trying to discredit it by attacking what you think his beliefs to be is acting no differently than the Pharisee who attempted to discredit the words spoken by Jesus because he ate and drank with the publicans and sinners.
 
JLB said:
For me, Jesus' Resurrection was in the past, the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture is future.
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JLB, please understand that what I share is not based upon some doctrines of men, or something some other man has taught me to believe. What I share is solely my understanding of what the Spirit of the Lord has revealed to my heart.

I agree with you in that the Resurrection of Jesus was in the past, but that is exactly the resurrection from the dead that I rest my faith upon, not a future resurrection. I believe that in Christ, we have already been resurrected; some to the resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of death as found in John 5:29, and that this resurrection is spiritual in nature. Flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God, but through his Spirit the kingdom of God is with us.

Where we differ I believe is in what we consider the resurrection of the dead in Christ in the future to be. I believe the future resurrection that you look forward to is the second resurrection; the one in which Jesus refers to when He said blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death hath no power (Rev 20:6).

Jesus Coming is in the future.

Jesus came in the flesh once, and He will appear a second time at the end of the age, and raise us up on the last Day, which is in the future.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

JLB
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What do you think it means when he says he will appear a second time apart from sin? My faith rests in the understanding that the promise of his "second" coming, or rather his coming again to be that he would send forth the Holy Spirit, the Comforter into our hearts. And that here in the hearts of man, God would establish his temple and his kingdom. To me, when he says that he will appear a second time apart from sin is to say that he will appear again apart from the image of a man, that we might know and understand His true nature as a Spirit.

I believe that you look for the second coming as the image of man coming down from the heavens in the appearance to all. But it is interesting if we consider what you refer to as the second coming when he shall raise us up on the last day. But I do not think that his appearance in that day will come in the form of the image of a man floating down from the clouds, be rather his appearance will be known as the image of man as he is raised up of from the earth, and the true body of Christ, his Church, formed and created in his image will raise up and be glorified in Christ.
 
Willie T said:
edited

Jon did NOT say we are to go around, "operate[ing] in smelling things in the spirit and seeing these auror's." He said that we can, and should, be aware of God in all of our senses... seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, etc. Then, of course, there is thinking and dreaming,,, but even in those, we relate through our senses. God is not going to communicate with us in a manner we don't even possess. And all we possess are our senses.

I don't think much of people who stop short of fully quoting the intent of speakers and authors, and just select "juicy" parts to try and paint a false picture.

Admittedly, Jon has learned to open himself to experience things I never have, but to call him a witch or warlock who is into the occult is pretty distasteful to me.
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NO, NO
Willie T said:
edited

Jon did NOT say we are to go around, "operate[ing] in smelling things in the spirit and seeing these auror's." He said that we can, and should, be aware of God in all of our senses... seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, etc. Then, of course, there is thinking and dreaming,,, but even in those, we relate through our senses. God is not going to communicate with us in a manner we don't even possess. And all we possess are our senses.

I don't think much of people who stop short of fully quoting the intent of speakers and authors, and just select "juicy" parts to try and paint a false picture.

Admittedly, Jon has learned to open himself to experience things I never have, but to call him a witch or warlock who is into the occult is pretty distasteful to me.
Click to expand...

NO, NO, NO and NO.................... We do not, never, be aware of God with any physical senses. God is Spirit, and we are Led by the Spirit, not by physical sense, not by smelling things in the spirit as Jonathan mentioned. It leads to error as the enemy operates in the flesh realm and minds the things of men.

Just this thinking alone can get someone way off track, throwing out fleeces, and will lead to error.

Just one thing out of many Johnathan teaches that is Wrong.

Jonathan said we should be aware of "POWER" objects. He brings up Elija's bones, and Paul's handkerchef. There are object that contain power...........

NO, NO and NO again. More error. Believers are anointed, and anointing does rub off on cloth. We are not to give heed to the cloth or any other so called power object. It's error.

Theh guy has a zeal for spiritual gifts, but it's as the Spirit wills. You don't have a school of the Seers. You only name something like that to shock traditional believers, it's wrong, it's of the devil. Just the attitude behind it is wrong. That is not how you help others see the need for the Holy Spirit in their life.

Johnathan reminds me a lot of Branham. If He does not judge himself, it will end up just like it did for Branham.
 
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