Free Will is a Fallen Will

[atpollard]

the above does NOT answer my question about the LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS being exactly the same in concept,,,only the WORDING is different.

Paragraph 1 said:

If you are asking me ... “Was the fact that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit always part of God’s plan for mankind, or was the death of Jesus a ‘divine plan B’ needed to clean up Adam and Eve derailing God’s ‘plan A’ ”, then I would say YES, a Sovereign God works out everything according to the good pleasure of His will. Which is just a fancy way of saying that God always gets His PLAN A.

This is equivalent to the fact that Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery in Egypt was also always part of God’s plan. In both cases, God KNEW before it happened that the sin would take place, God certainly could have prevented the sin from taking place, and in both the case of Adam and Joseph, God had not merely allowed the sin to take place, but God chose to use the sin and its consequences as clay in the hands of a potter to shape something far greater. Joseph saved millions of lives and gave us the imagery of the Passover as a foreshadow so we could understand the incarnation of God Himself when it came centuries later. God could have placed the tree out of Adam’s reach, but God chose instead to demonstrate His unimaginable love and start a work in motion that transforms “created creatures” into beloved children of God.

Paragraph 2 said:

On the other hand, if you are asking me if God FORCED Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, if God is responsible for creating the evil desires within Adam and Eve and if God is really the one responsible for the sinful choices made by Adam and Eve, then I would answer “NO” (or as Paul would say “MAY IT NEVER BE!”) That is not “predestination”.

While God allowed Joseph’s brothers to commit the sin of selling Joseph into slavery, God did not place that hatred of Joseph in their heart and compel them to do evil. In exactly the same way, God allowed Adam to be tempted and God used Adam’s failure as the catalyst for the far greater glory of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, resurrection and Pentecost. However, God did not place the evil thoughts into Adam, nor did God force Adam to sin.

I did not ignore the paragraphs. The circumstances are parallel since for both Adam and Joseph, God allowed sin and God used sin for His glory, but God did not cause the sin.

That is why my answer depends on your definition of “predestine”. If you say “predestine” to mean that God caused evil actions by men, then I disagree.

 

[atpollard]

Was the law not sufficient to teach man the above???
GOD had to make a COVENANT????????

The Law is part of a Covenant, so I am confused by your statement. Perhaps you could be specific and we could look at an actual bi-lateral covenant that you are asking about.

 

[atpollard]

Where is the answer to my question in your post?


So you are saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?


It’s really just a yes or no answer.


Just trying to understand what you are saying.



JLB

I actually don’t think that you really are trying to understand what I am saying. You keep phrasing questions in a form like ...

”Do you still beat your wife?”

... and then insisting on a simple YES or NO answer to your specific question as you have worded it.

Q. Where is the answer to my question in your post?
A. The entire post was the answer. You wanted to know if God planned what happened or not. I presented the PLAN of God from eternity past to eternity future as told to us in Scripture. God’s PLAN, His First and Only plan, was the incarnation and all that accomplished.

Q. So you are saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?
A. Actually, you keep trying to shove your words into my mouth. I said none of that.

• I presented God’s plan from Scripture.
• I cannot answer until you define what YOU mean by “predestination”. I invested many words explaining that exact point already and it applies to you as well.
• “Have Adam and Eve eat” sounds like you are asking if God FORCED them to sin and they had no choice. I disagree with that and would not word the question the way that you have.
• ”and disobey Him” appears to also be linked to God “have” (which implies God compelling disobedience). Is that what you intended to ask, because as stated elsewhere, I do not believe that God causes evil or forces people to sin.

Q. It’s really just a yes or no answer.
A. Perhaps by this point you can see why I disagree that your question is really just a yes or no question. As worded, I would have to answer “no” ... because I do not believe that God is the author of evil and forces people to sin.

Q. Just trying to understand what you are saying.
A. If you really want to understand my beliefs, then just ask a simple, open ended question and let me answer for myself without feeling like I am being invited to place my head in your verbal noose.

 

[atpollard]

IF God PLANS SOMETHING,,,then HE CAUSES IT TO HAPPEN.

Who crucified Jesus?

 

[JLB]

I actually don’t think that you really are trying to understand what I am saying. You keep phrasing questions in a form like ...

”Do you still beat your wife?”

I have never asked you this.


I am only looking for a straight answer that can be understood.


Im not playing some game, but asking a straightforward question.


Here is my question—


So are you saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?


If this is what you are teaching God’s people then please answer yes.


If this is not what you are teaching God’s people then answer no, and clarify what you mean so we can all understand what it is you are teaching.


As everyone can plainly see, this is not some childish beat your wife question, where you are guilty of the action by either answering yes or no.


If you answer yes, then that is what you believe and teach.

If you answer no, then you don’t believe and teach this, and you can clarify for us what it is you do believe, so we can understan.




JLB

 

[JLB]

You wanted to know if God planned what happened or not. I presented the PLAN of God from eternity past to eternity future as told to us in Scripture. God’s PLAN, His First and Only plan, was the incarnation and all that accomplished.

Not at all.

Thats not my question.

Thats your question that you made up in place of my question.


Here‘s my question —


So are you saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?

God’s PLAN, His First and Only plan, was the incarnation and all that accomplished.

See I believe and agree that it was God’s plan for Jesus Christ to die for our sins, because He foresaw what Adam and Eve would do.


However, as everyone can see, that is not my question.


Here’s my question —


So are you saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Q. So you are saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?
A. Actually, you keep trying to shove your words into my mouth. I said none of that.

• I presented God’s plan from Scripture.
• I cannot answer until you define what YOU mean by “predestination”. I invested many words explaining that exact point already and it applies to you as well.
• “Have Adam and Eve eat” sounds like you are asking if God FORCED them to sin and they had no choice. I disagree with that and would not word the question the way that you have.
• ”and disobey Him” appears to also be linked to God “have” (which implies God compelling disobedience). Is that what you intended to ask, because as stated elsewhere, I do not believe that God causes evil or forces people to sin.

Many people, myself included come to the conclusion that Calvinists believe and teach that God predestined, or predetermined for Adam and Eve to disobey Him, because of the way Calvinist’s reject that man has a freewill to choose.


Now you have a chance to bring clarity as well as unity to our common faith, by answering with a no, and explaining your beliefs as to why Adam and Eve disobeyed God, if they didn’t have the ability to choose from a free will that was not hindered by sin, or was fallen.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

So are you saying that is was God’s plan (predestination) to have Adam and Eve eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and disobey Him?

Asked and answered.

As worded, I would have to answer “no” ... because I do not believe that God is the author of evil and forces people to sin.

 

[atpollard]

If you answer no, then you don’t believe and teach this, and you can clarify for us what it is you do believe, so we can understand.

I believe that “when you are being tempted, do not say, ’God is tempting me.’ God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.” [James 1:13-18]

 

[atpollard]

Many people, myself included come to the conclusion that Calvinists believe and teach that God predestined, or predetermined for Adam and Eve to disobey Him, because of the way Calvinist’s reject that man has a freewill to choose.


Now you have a chance to bring clarity as well as unity to our common faith, by answering with a no, and explaining your beliefs as to why Adam and Eve disobeyed God, if they didn’t have the ability to choose from a free will that was not hindered by sin, or was fallen.




JLB

The discussion would be pointless.

1. You do not correctly understand the Reformed belief on Predestination and God’s role. Nor have you made an effort to.

2. You are not Adam and Eve. You were not created directly by God without the consequences of original sin. So even if we were to clarify how things worked for Adam in the garden of Eden, it would not be applicable to one born spiritually dead and a slave to sin as the Bible describes the human race without God’s special gift of grace.

 

[JLB]

I believe that “when you are being tempted, do not say, ’God is tempting me.’ God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death. So don't be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.” [James 1:13-18]

I believe this as well.

 

[JLB]

1. You do not correctly understand the Reformed belief on Predestination and God’s role. Nor have you made an effort to.

Maybe you can clear it up for us and bring some unity of understanding to the Forum in these matters.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The discussion would be pointless.

1. You do not correctly understand the Reformed belief on Predestination and God’s role. Nor have you made an effort to.

2. You are not Adam and Eve. You were not created directly by God without the consequences of original sin. So even if we were to clarify how things worked for Adam in the garden of Eden, it would not be applicable to one born spiritually dead and a slave to sin as the Bible describes the human race without God’s special gift of grace.

But I am speaking from the stand point of a person who has received God’s grace and a new nature, that is empowered by His Spirit.


Adam and Eve‘s will was not fallen.


Even Cain was told by God that ...If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”



JLB

 

[JLB]

1. You do not correctly understand the Reformed belief on Predestination and God’s role. Nor have you made an effort to.

This type of rhetoric only serves to divide us.

You assume much.


Answering a question directly without going in circles is the best way to help people understand the “Reformed position”.



JLB

 

[JLB]

2. You are not Adam and Eve. You were not created directly by God without the consequences of original sin. So even if we were to clarify how things worked for Adam in the garden of Eden, it would not be applicable to one born spiritually dead and a slave to sin as the Bible describes the human race without God’s special gift of grace.

No one has claimed to be Adam and Eve.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

Answering a question directly without going in circles is the best way to help people understand the “Reformed position”.

Do you still believe that God is powerless to save anyone unless the greater “free will” of the created individual allows God to do anything for them? Please answer with a simple Yes or No, just as you have requested of me.

 

[atpollard]

Adam and Eve‘s will was not fallen.

I agree.

Even Cain was told by God that ...If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Was Cain like Adam and Eve?
What choice did Cain make?
Did Cain demonstrate a desire to be like his father God, or like his father Satan?

According to scripture, are people born more like Adam or more like Cain?

You have a propensity to focus on God’s warning to Cain and ignore the fact that it fell on deaf ears and a cold, dead heart of stone.

 

[JLB]

Do you still believe that God is powerless to save anyone unless the greater “free will” of the created individual allows God to do anything for them? Please answer with a simple Yes or No, just as you have requested of me.

No.

I don’t believe God is powerless.


I believe that we must obey Him in order to be saved.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Was Cain like Adam and Eve?

I don’t know.

I’m not Cain or Adam.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

God’s Decree (Particular Baptist Style)
1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.

• I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.' [Isa 46:10 NIV]
• In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [Eph 1:11 NIV]
• Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. [Heb 6:17 NIV]
• For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." ... Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. [Rom 9:15, 18 NIV]

He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.

• When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; [Jas 1:13 NIV]
• This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. [1Jo 1:5 NIV]

This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.

• Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. [Act 4:27-28 NIV]
• Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." [Jhn 19:11 NIV]

In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.

• God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? [Num 23:19 NIV]
• Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [Eph 1:3-5 NIV]

That’s a start from the 1868 Baptist Confession of Faith. That is what “Reformed” or “Calvinist” or “Particular” Baptists have believed the Bible teaches (not any man) for more than 150 years. There is more, but let’s see if you are even interested in hearing that much of what we really believe.