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Free Will is a Fallen Will

You have not addressed what the verses in Psalms actually SAY. You just keep telling ME that I am wrong

I haven’t said “you are wrong“.


Im pointing out the context and words of Psalm 14.

Im also pointing out the fact that the scriptures clearly show us there were and are righteous people who are mentioned in the Bible, which alone completely refutes the idea of total depravity.


Maybe if you could explain why you believe these passages indicate that these men mentioned were righteous, yet your theology labels them are totally depraved.



JLB
 
3. In Gal 5:16-17 which you cited it states: 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh'. How is it possible for human flesh to lust against the Spirit unless sarx means more than the biology of my human body?

How is it possible for a human being to disappear from one place and appear miles away in another?


There are lots of things I can’t explain scientifically.


If the Bible says it, then why not believe it.


You don’t believe your physical body contains sin?


The works of the flesh are sin.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




JLB
 
Maybe if you could explain why you believe these passages indicate that these men mentioned were righteous, yet your theology labels them are totally depraved.
  1. The “righteousness” (or lack of righteousness) of any of “these men” changes nothing about what the rest of scripture teaches and has nothing to do with “Total Inability” (which is what ‘fallen will’ is all about).
  2. It is not MY THEOLOGY. It is Scripture that so claims.
The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Were any of those men “the children of men”? Yes, they were.
What does PSALMS (from the Bible, not my theology) claim GOD says about them as children of men?

For my “theology” on the subject of “Total Inability” and “Fallen Will”, I repeat what I learned from scripture that happens to align with what some group called “Calvinist” gave the name “Total Depravity” to:

  • [Romans 3:11 NASB] 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
  • [1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
  • [John 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
PEOPLE ‘freely’ choose “not to believe” (God gives the gift of faith).
 
  1. The “righteousness” (or lack of righteousness) of any of “these men” changes nothing about what the rest of scripture teaches and has nothing to do with “Total Inability” (which is what ‘fallen will’ is all about).
  2. It is not MY THEOLOGY. It is Scripture that so claims.


Maybe if you could explain why you believe these passages indicate that these men mentioned were righteous, yet your theology labels them are totally depraved.

I used scripture to indicate people who were righteous.

This would seem to prove that Total Depravity, is not scriptural.


What is “Total Inability”?

I thought we were discussing “Total Depravity”?



JLB
 
Were any of those men “the children of men”? Yes, they were.
What does PSALMS (from the Bible, not my theology) claim GOD says about them as children of men?

Please write out the scripture from a Psalms that you want to discuss.




JLB
 
What is “Total Inability”?

I thought we were discussing “Total Depravity”?

from Ligonier Ministries:

Enslavement to sin characterizes all those who have not yet been transformed by God’s saving grace, and only the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, can set people free to do what is pleasing to the Lord (see John 8:36). This complete enslavement to sin is what we are really talking about when we speak of total depravity. The consequence of Adam’s fall is not merely that it has become more difficult to do what is truly good or that we have been weakened while still retaining some ability to choose to please God. No, the fall has rendered us unable to respond to our Creator in trust, love, and obedience.​
It is important for us to be clear on what we mean when we speak of sinful humanity’s inability to choose the good. We do not mean that sinners cannot make choices. Plainly, we choose from many different options every day. We select one course of action over another. Also, we do not mean that sinners are incapable intellectually of discerning good and evil. Our moral sense has been impaired by the fall, but even the most hardened sinner still has God’s law on his conscience and can recognize the difference between good and evil on at least some level (Rom. 2).​
When it comes to total depravity, the inability of which we speak is first and foremost moral inability. In our fallenness, though we have a will and can discern the good, we lack the ability to choose rightly, to exercise our wills in the proper direction of absolute dependence on God and submission to His will. To put it another way, we are dead with respect to the things of God, to that which He finds pleasing. That is what Paul says in today’s passage. Before our Creator makes us alive spiritually, we are dead in our trespasses and sin, and we cannot help but serve the world, the flesh, and the devil. Dead bodies are incapable of doing anything but remaining in the state of death. If they are to come alive again, they must be acted upon by an outside being, even God Himself at the resurrection. Spiritually dead people cannot do anything but remain in the state of spiritual death. They require an outside being—the sovereign Lord—to restore them to spiritual life. This is what God does for His people in making them spiritually alive. We see the greatness of God’s grace and power in that He intervenes and changes us before we are even able to ask Him to do so, granting us the faith by which we are saved (Eph. 2:1–10).​
Coram Deo
The doctrine of total depravity and what it entails—total moral inability—magnify the grace and power of God. God is so gracious that He saves people who in their natural state are unwilling to come to Him, and He is so powerful that He never fails to redeem those whom He wants to redeem. Knowing the depth of our sin should move us to worship our Lord fervently for His goodness and grace.​

from atpollard:
“Total Depravity” means that every part of man (mind, body and spirit) were impacted by the fall and are drawn to sin. “Total Inability” means that man cannot overcome his sinful nature without outside aid (from God). Thus “Total Depravity” = “Total Inability” from the standpoint of the impact of sin on man’s salvation.
 
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from Ligonier Ministries:

Enslavement to sin characterizes all those who have not yet been transformed by God’s saving grace, and only the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, can set people free to do what is pleasing to the Lord (see John 8:36). This complete enslavement to sin is what we are really talking about when we speak of total depravity. The consequence of Adam’s fall is not merely that it has become more difficult to do what is truly good or that we have been weakened while still retaining some ability to choose to please God. No, the fall has rendered us unable to respond to our Creator in trust, love, and obedience.​
It is important for us to be clear on what we mean when we speak of sinful humanity’s inability to choose the good. We do not mean that sinners cannot make choices. Plainly, we choose from many different options every day. We select one course of action over another. Also, we do not mean that sinners are incapable intellectually of discerning good and evil. Our moral sense has been impaired by the fall, but even the most hardened sinner still has God’s law on his conscience and can recognize the difference between good and evil on at least some level (Rom. 2).​
When it comes to total depravity, the inability of which we speak is first and foremost moral inability. In our fallenness, though we have a will and can discern the good, we lack the ability to choose rightly, to exercise our wills in the proper direction of absolute dependence on God and submission to His will. To put it another way, we are dead with respect to the things of God, to that which He finds pleasing. That is what Paul says in today’s passage. Before our Creator makes us alive spiritually, we are dead in our trespasses and sin, and we cannot help but serve the world, the flesh, and the devil. Dead bodies are incapable of doing anything but remaining in the state of death. If they are to come alive again, they must be acted upon by an outside being, even God Himself at the resurrection. Spiritually dead people cannot do anything but remain in the state of spiritual death. They require an outside being—the sovereign Lord—to restore them to spiritual life. This is what God does for His people in making them spiritually alive. We see the greatness of God’s grace and power in that He intervenes and changes us before we are even able to ask Him to do so, granting us the faith by which we are saved (Eph. 2:1–10).​
Coram Deo
The doctrine of total depravity and what it entails—total moral inability—magnify the grace and power of God. God is so gracious that He saves people who in their natural state are unwilling to come to Him, and He is so powerful that He never fails to redeem those whom He wants to redeem. Knowing the depth of our sin should move us to worship our Lord fervently for His goodness and grace.​

from atpollard:
“Total Depravity” means that every part of man (mind, body and spirit) were impacted by the fall and are drawn to sin. “Total Inability” means that man cannot overcome his sinful nature without outside aid (from God). Thus “Total Depravity” = “Total Inability” from the standpoint of the impact of sin on man’s salvation.
Gave you a like because you explained very well...
not because I agree, as you know.


Man is depraved but not totally.

Man is able to turn to God with the help of the Holy Spirit and God's revelation to man.

The biblical theme for free will applies to free will regarding moral choices.

However, since you believe in determinism,,,,you must also believe that ALL decisions are made by God and are predestined.
Could you please explain your belief on these choices if I'm not correct per you understanding....
 
Maybe if you could explain why you believe these passages indicate that these men mentioned were righteous, yet your theology labels them are totally depraved.

I used scripture to indicate people who were righteous.

This would seem to prove that Total Depravity, is not scriptural.


What is “Total Inability”?

I thought we were discussing “Total Depravity”?



JLB
I was waiting for atpollard to reply, but in a nutshell:

Total Depravity CAUSES Total Inability.
IOW,,,man is so depraved that he is unable to turn to God UNLESS God causes him to do so.
 
“Total Depravity” means that every part of man (mind, body and spirit) were impacted by the fall and are drawn to sin. “Total Inability” means that man cannot overcome his sinful nature without outside aid (from God). Thus “Total Depravity” = “Total Inability” from the standpoint of the impact of sin on man’s salvation.

I agree with this definition.


Man can not obey the Gospel with His grace.

Man can not continue to obey Him, without abiding in a Him, thus drawing from the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.


JLB
 
I was waiting for atpollard to reply, but in a nutshell:

Total Depravity CAUSES Total Inability.
IOW,,,man is so depraved that he is unable to turn to God UNLESS God causes him to do so.

Unless God grants him grace, the ability to do so.


”Causes him to do so”, lends itself to making him do so.





JLB
 
”Causes him to do so”, lends itself to making him do so.
Yup ...

[Philippians 2:13]
  • [NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.
  • [NIV] for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
  • [NLT] For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
 
Yup ...

[Philippians 2:13]
  • [NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.
  • [NIV] for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
  • [NLT] For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.
Be nice atpollard...
You know JLB mis-read my post !

God doesn't MAKE US do anything....
We have that nasty libertarian free will.

1:20 am
'night
 
Yup ...

[Philippians 2:13]
  • [NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.
  • [NIV] for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
  • [NLT] For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

Yes God works in us by His Spirit, to lead us according to the Spirit, rather than us practicing the works of the flesh.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life


The Spirit dwells in us to lead us in the way of righteousnes.


Each born again Christian must invest Himself towards the things the Spirit desires rather than investing ourself towards the things of the flesh.


Here’s the choice each of us must make:


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17


Paul helps to understand what the works of the flesh are.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Those of us who practice the works of the flesh, which is sin, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


We must choose live our lives according to the Spirit within us.





JLB
 
I'll start by being frank and say I am a converted Arminian, converted to reformed theology. (Hi, my name is Hospes and I'm a Calvinist. :) )

In trying to explain how God works in our will, I have an imperfect analogy. Here goes:

If I told you I'd give you a dollar to go without food for three days, I expect you'd tell me to pound sand. If I told you I'd give you a million dollars to go without food for three days, I'd expect you'd, of your own free will, decide to take me up on the offer. Did I steal your free will when I made my second offer? I think not. I just offered you something of great enough value that you, of your own accord, chose to pursue it. Could it be said I caused you to go hungry for three days? I think so, in that without my offer, you would not have because you had no motivation to do so.

Matthew 13:44 (ESV, i.e. Extra Special Version)
[Jesus speaking]The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
2 Corinthians 4:6 (ESV)
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

For myself, I think He opened my blind eyes to a glimpse of His infinite worth and beauty. And just a glimpse was enough to pursue Him with all my resources.

Hope this helps.
 
Be nice atpollard...

God doesn't MAKE US do anything....
We have that nasty libertarian free will.

God MAKES US want to obey ...

  • [Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
  • [Philippians 2:13 NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

... and grants us the strength to obey.

Give what you command, and command what you will. You impose continency on us. –Confessions X, 29 [St Augustine of Hippo]
 
God MAKES US want to obey ...

  • [Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
  • [Philippians 2:13 NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

... and grants us the strength to obey.

Give what you command, and command what you will. You impose continency on us. –Confessions X, 29 [St Augustine of Hippo]

God works in us to desire and do His good pleasure.

However, it is those who make the decision to obey Him, that are saved.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB
 
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