Free Will is a Fallen Will

[JLB]

I'll start by being frank and say I am a converted Arminian, converted to reformed theology. (Hi, my name is Hospes and I'm a Calvinist. )

Welcome brother to the Soteriology Forum.



God bless you.



JLB

 

[JLB]

For myself, I think He opened my blind eyes to a glimpse of His infinite worth and beauty. And just a glimpse was enough to pursue Him with all my resources.

Amen.

Beautiful word.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll start by being frank and say I am a converted Arminian, converted to reformed theology. (Hi, my name is Hospes and I'm a Calvinist. )

In trying to explain how God works in our will, I have an imperfect analogy. Here goes:

If I told you I'd give you a dollar to go without food for three days, I expect you'd tell me to pound sand. If I told you I'd give you a million dollars to go without food for three days, I'd expect you'd, of your own free will, decide to take me up on the offer. Did I steal your free will when I made my second offer? I think not. I just offered you something of great enough value that you, of your own accord, chose to pursue it. Could it be said I caused you to go hungry for three days? I think so, in that without my offer, you would not have because you had no motivation to do so.

Matthew 13:44 (ESV, i.e. Extra Special Version)
[Jesus speaking]The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
2 Corinthians 4:6 (ESV)
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

For myself, I think He opened my blind eyes to a glimpse of His infinite worth and beauty. And just a glimpse was enough to pursue Him with all my resources.

Hope this helps.

How does it help?

You haven't explained free will as is understood by calvinism.
What God offers you has nothing to do with what you decide about going without food for 3 days.

Calvinism teaches determinism.
Determinism means God predestined everything.

Do you agree with the above?
Then we'll get on to free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

God MAKES US want to obey ...

• [Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
• [Philippians 2:13 NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

... and grants us the strength to obey.

Give what you command, and command what you will. You impose continency on us. –Confessions X, 29 [St Augustine of Hippo]

God DOES NOT make us do anything by force atpollard.
I mean, you keep posting the same verses over and over,,,,
I keep giving you the N.T. explanation as was understood for 1,500 years BEFORE LUTHER and you just ignore it.

So....instead, why not explain to me how
COMPATIBLE FREE WILL
is
Free Will
Since it is NOT?


Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

I mean, you keep posting the same verses over and over....

It is not my fault if you refuse to accept what Scripture says, I still have a responsibility to point out where the WORD OF GOD contradicts your ancient church traditions. It is what makes me Reformed instead of Roman Catholic (Scripture over tradition).

 

[atpollard]

I keep giving you the N.T. explanation as was understood for 1,500 years BEFORE LUTHER and you just ignore it.

Augustine wrote 1100 years before Luther, Paul wrote Philippians 1500 years before Luther and Solomon wrote Proverbs 2500 years before Luther, so that was a nice try at an “appeal to authority” fallacy.

Using the oldest source ... Does the LORD turn the heart of the king wherever GOD wishes? [Proverbs 21:1]

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not my fault if you refuse to accept what Scripture says, I still have a responsibility to point out where the WORD OF GOD contradicts your ancient church traditions. It is what makes me Reformed instead of Roman Catholic (Scripture over tradition).

1. I am not Roman Catholic or any type of Catholic as there is more than one.

2. I do NOT refuse to accept what scripture says...
but YOU refuse to accept what the Apostolic Fathers taught.
You're a smart person atpollard,,,difficult to think you know nothing of church history.

3. I do not follow ancient church traditions since I do not know what they are.

4. Please stop thinking things about me that are UNTRUE and concentrate on what I post.

5. I do not make personal statements about you (except that you're my favorite calvinist).



6. Is it too difficult for you to explain what COMPATIBILIST FREE WILL is?

Then please do so.

 

[GodsGrace]

Augustine wrote 1100 years before Luther, Paul wrote Philippians 1500 years before Luther and Solomon wrote Proverbs 2500 years before Luther, so that was a nice try at an “appeal to authority” fallacy.

Using the oldest source ... Does the LORD turn the heart of the king wherever GOD wishes? [Proverbs 21:1]

Oh for goodness sake.
PLEASE stop with Augustine.

1. He changed his mind many times and anyone depending on him for church authority is mistaken. The catholic church TODAY doesn't even agree with him ON ORIGINAL SIN,,,his greatest doctrine at the time.

2. He DID NOT believe in double predestination.

Could you please explain the difference between predestination and double predistination? Do you KNOW the difference? Or do you just like to throw his name around?

3. NO ONE OF HIS TIME AGREED WITH HIM.. maybe some gnostics, but I doubt even they did. You DO KNOW He was a manechaen gnostic right?

4. Paul did not agree with calvinism since he did not teach it....Luther just THOUGHT he did because at the time of the reformation NO ONE knew for sure what the scriptures were supposed to mean FOR THIS NEW RELIGION.

In fact, one of them said that THERE WERE SO MANY DIFFERENT DOCTRINE CIRCULATING, that eventually a NEW REFORMATION would be necessary.


So which fallicies are YOU in love with?

AGAIIN,,,PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECT.

 

[JLB]

It is not my fault if you refuse to accept what Scripture says, I still have a responsibility to point out where the WORD OF GOD contradicts your ancient church traditions. It is what makes me Reformed instead of Roman Catholic (Scripture over tradition).

Thats funny.


You follow the teachings of Calvinism with man made terms that are not found in the Bible then you turn around and claim she refuses to accept scripture, when she uses scripture and you use your traditions of Calvinism.

Truly Funny.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Oh for goodness sake.
PLEASE stop with Augustine.

That’s all he knows.

The writings of other men.

Very sad.

 

[Hospes]

How does it help?

You haven't explained free will as is understood by calvinism.
What God offers you has nothing to do with what you decide about going without food for 3 days.

Calvinism teaches determinism.
Determinism means God predestined everything.

Do you agree with the above?
Then we'll get on to free will.

First, I have to smile a bit at the irony whenever a non-Calvinist tells me as a Calvinist what Calvinist believe.

If your question is do I believe God is sovereign over everything, then yes, I believe this.

 

[atpollard]

That’s all he knows.

The writings of other men.

Very sad.

Perhaps you could point out where you ANTI-Calvinists used something other than personal opinions devoid of any support, or vague references to “the writings of other men” to correct my misunderstanding, because I can’t seem to find a single scripture verse or point of exegesis in ANY of these responses from you’all ...

1. I am not Roman Catholic or any type of Catholic as there is more than one.

2. I do NOT refuse to accept what scripture says...
but YOU refuse to accept what the Apostolic Fathers taught.
You're a smart person atpollard,,,difficult to think you know nothing of church history.

3. I do not follow ancient church traditions since I do not know what they are.

4. Please stop thinking things about me that are UNTRUE and concentrate on what I post.

5. I do not make personal statements about you (except that you're my favorite calvinist).

6. Is it too difficult for you to explain what COMPATIBILIST FREE WILL is?

Then please do so.

Oh for goodness sake.
PLEASE stop with Augustine.

1. He changed his mind many times and anyone depending on him for church authority is mistaken. The catholic church TODAY doesn't even agree with him ON ORIGINAL SIN,,,his greatest doctrine at the time.

2. He DID NOT believe in double predestination.

Could you please explain the difference between predestination and double predistination? Do you KNOW the difference? Or do you just like to throw his name around?

3. NO ONE OF HIS TIME AGREED WITH HIM.. maybe some gnostics, but I doubt even they did. You DO KNOW He was a manechaen gnostic right?

4. Paul did not agree with calvinism since he did not teach it....Luther just THOUGHT he did because at the time of the reformation NO ONE knew for sure what the scriptures were supposed to mean FOR THIS NEW RELIGION.

In fact, one of them said that THERE WERE SO MANY DIFFERENT DOCTRINE CIRCULATING, that eventually a NEW REFORMATION would be necessary.

So which fallicies are YOU in love with?

AGAIIN,,,PLEASE STICK TO THE SUBJECT.

Thats funny.

You follow the teachings of Calvinism with man made terms that are not found in the Bible then you turn around and claim she refuses to accept scripture, when she uses scripture and you use your traditions of Calvinism.

Truly Funny.

JLB

What I do find are LOTS of accusations made against me that at first glance appear to be false.

Shame on both of you.

 

[JLB]

First, I have to smile a bit at the irony whenever a non-Calvinist tells me as a Calvinist what Calvinist believe.

If your question is do I believe God is sovereign over everything, then yes, I believe this.

Amen.


The scripture in the NKJV and KJV, use Potentate, the NASB uses Sovereign.


God is a Soveirgn.

A Ruler; The king of kings and Lord of lords.


which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Timothy 6:15


Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15


which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 Timothy 6:15 NASB



I think we can all agree on this.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Perhaps you could point out where you ANTI-Calvinists used something other than personal opinions devoid of any support, or vague references to “the writings of other men” to correct my misunderstanding, because I can’t seem to find a single scripture verse or point of exegesis in ANY of these responses from you’all ...





What I do find are LOTS of accusations made against me that at first glance appear to be false.

Shame on both of you.

Here is your slur against her.

It is not my fault if you refuse to accept what Scripture says, I still have a responsibility to point out where the WORD OF GOD contradicts your ancient church traditions. It is what makes me Reformed instead of Roman Catholic (Scripture over tradition).

Instead of using scripture to address the subject, you try a back handed insult to attack her.


She’s not Roman Catholic.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Perhaps you could point out where you ANTI-Calvinists used something other than personal opinions devoid of any support, or vague references to “the writings of other men” to correct my misunderstanding, because I can’t seem to find a single scripture verse or point of exegesis in ANY of these responses from you’all ...





What I do find are LOTS of accusations made against me that at first glance appear to be false.

Shame on both of you.

You quote Augustine.

You promote the teaching of Calvin.

No false accusations sir, just going by your history.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

... then you turn around and claim she refuses to accept scripture, when she uses scripture and you use your traditions of Calvinism.

Let’s “FACT CHECK” this accusation.

Here is what I posted ...

God MAKES US want to obey ...

• [Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.
• [Philippians 2:13 NASB] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for [His] good pleasure.

... and grants us the strength to obey.

Give what you command, and command what you will. You impose continency on us. –Confessions X, 29 [St Augustine of Hippo]

Note within MY post my personal statement of belief:

• “God MAKES US want to obey ... and grants us the strength to obey.”

Note that I offered scripture to support my opinions:

• [Proverbs 21:1] “He turns it wherever He wishes.” which is a reference to God controlling the heart of men and support for the belief that God makes us want to obey”.
• [Philippians 2:13] “both to will and to work” which is a reference to God as the source of BOTH our desire to obey Him (to will) and our having the strength to obey Him (to work).

Thus scripture supports MY CLAIM that God makes us want to obey and grants us the strength to obey.

A common accusation that I have been subjected to is that I follow the 16th Century teachings of a man named Calvin and ignore the 1500 year teachings that the church has universally believed and were handed down by the Early Church Fathers. While I do not follow the teachings of John Calvin, except to the extent that whatever John Calvin wrote agrees with Reformed Baptist theology that I developed from reading scripture at a Church of God (a thoroughly non-reformed denomination), John and I are in agreement. However I have never read any of his writings, personally. I have read the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Confession of Faith and the Southern Baptist Faith and Message and the Heidelberg Catechism, but all of those came after reaching the Reformed Baptist view from scripture. So I thought that I would include a quote from an Early Church Father that completely agreed with my scriptural claim that God makes us want to obey and grants us the strength to obey, and offered support from Augustine of Hippo. I have not generally read his writings either, but just happened to know this particular quote because those that responded in disagreement to it were eventually declared HERETICS by the Catholic Church. I just knew the quote because it was pivotal in Church History.

So where in my post have I relied on the “traditions of Calvinism” as you have accused me?

Here is her response to my post ...

God DOES NOT make us do anything by force atpollard.
I mean, you keep posting the same verses over and over,,,,
I keep giving you the N.T. explanation as was understood for 1,500 years BEFORE LUTHER and you just ignore it.

So....instead, why not explain to me how
COMPATIBLE FREE WILL
is
Free Will
Since it is NOT?

Thanks.

Where has she used scripture (as you claim she has)?

When I claim she refuses to accept scripture, how is that claim demonstrably untrue?

So an examination of the facts reveals your claim ...

... then you turn around and claim she refuses to accept scripture, when she uses scripture and you use your traditions of Calvinism.

... to be UNTRUE.

 

[JLB]

Let’s “FACT CHECK” this accusation.

Here is what I posted ...

Note within MY post my personal statement of belief:

• “God MAKES US want to obey ... and grants us the strength to obey.”

Note that I offered scripture to support my opinions:

• [Proverbs 21:1] “He turns it wherever He wishes.” which is a reference to God controlling the heart of men and support for the belief that God makes us want to obey”.
• [Philippians 2:13] “both to will and to work” which is a reference to God as the source of BOTH our desire to obey Him (to will) and our having the strength to obey Him (to work).

Thus scripture supports MY CLAIM that God makes us want to obey and grants us the strength to obey.

A common accusation that I have been subjected to is that I follow the 16th Century teachings of a man named Calvin and ignore the 1500 year teachings that the church has universally believed and were handed down by the Early Church Fathers. While I do not follow the teachings of John Calvin, except to the extent that whatever John Calvin wrote agrees with Reformed Baptist theology that I developed from reading scripture at a Church of God (a thoroughly non-reformed denomination), John and I are in agreement. However I have never read any of his writings, personally. I have read the Westminster Confession of Faith and the London Confession of Faith and the Southern Baptist Faith and Message and the Heidelberg Catechism, but all of those came after reaching the Reformed Baptist view from scripture. So I thought that I would include a quote from an Early Church Father that completely agreed with my scriptural claim that God makes us want to obey and grants us the strength to obey, and offered support from Augustine of Hippo. I have not generally read his writings either, but just happened to know this particular quote because those that responded in disagreement to it were eventually declared HERETICS by the Catholic Church. I just knew the quote because it was pivotal in Church History.

So where in my post have I relied on the “traditions of Calvinism” as you have accused me?

Here is her response to my post ...

Where has she used scripture (as you claim she has)?

When I claim she refuses to accept scripture, how is that claim demonstrably untrue?

So an examination of the facts reveals your claim ...

... to be UNTRUE.

Your posts are mixed with the teachings of Calvinism and quotes from Augustine, and some scripture taken out of context.


Example:


The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord,
Like the rivers of water;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
Proverbs 21:1


Your insinuating that a God turns the heart of all mankind to be saved or not be saved, when it addresses the king, and specifically the king who wrote the proverb.


Just like your use of Psalm 14:3, whereby you apply this scripture as a blanket statement to refer to every living human being that ever lived, to prop up your T in TULIP, that every person from Adam on was totally depraved, a term not even found in the Bible.


The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
Psalm 14:1-3


Clearly the reference in to the fool who says there is no God.


JLB

 

[atpollard]

1. I am not Roman Catholic or any type of Catholic as there is more than one.

If you will reread my statement, I did not say that YOU were a Roman Catholic (and I am aware that there are other types). I said that I place SCRIPTURE above TRADITION (including the ECFs) and that is why I am REFORMED and why I am not ROMAN CATHOLIC (and I deliberately meant Roman Catholic). Just a small personal fact, but I heard the GOSPEL from a group of Catholic Charismatics while I was a violent gang member. It was a discussion with a Priest during the preparations for the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin that I learned about the Catholic Church (whose Pope is in Rome) placing tradition about Mary above the scripture that I had just read about Jesus’ mother and brothers coming to visit him. At that point I knew that I could not accept tradition over scripture, so I could never become a member of the Catholic Church. Thus my statement was both about me personally and completely literal. If I could accept tradition over scripture, I would be Roman Catholic today. Because I placed scripture above tradition, I came to embrace the Doctrines of Grace that are taught in scripture ... which I later learned were sometimes called Calvinism.

2. I do NOT refuse to accept what scripture says...
but YOU refuse to accept what the Apostolic Fathers taught.
You're a smart person atpollard,,,difficult to think you know nothing of church history.

Guilty as charged. I will be first to admit that I do not CARE what the Church Fathers taught. I care about what the actual Apostles wrote in the New Testament that changed my heart and life. In truth, I don’t care what Polycarp or Augustine or Calvin or Luther wrote as much as I care about whether or not their words agree with what Luke and Peter and John and Paul wrote.

3. I do not follow ancient church traditions since I do not know what they are.

Ancient Church Traditions were just a reference to the pre 1500 Church teachings and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I apologize if I misunderstood, but you seem to care a great deal about the teachings of the Early Church Fathers and how things were done before Luther.

 

[atpollard]

The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
Psalm 14:1-3


Clearly the reference in to the fool who says there is no God.

Who are “the children of men” and are they also clearly the ones that have “all turned aside”, “together become corrupt” and of whom none “does good”; “not one”?

Why do you stop at the top and refuse to read the whole paragraph? Yes, the fool says in his heart that there is no God, but ALL of the children of men failed the search for someone that understand and seeks God. The “fool” is an “atheist” and the “children of men” are lost, dead in their sin, and in need of salvation.

That is where Ephesians 2:1-10 steps in to finish paining the picture. Yet being made alive does not deny that we were once dead.

 

[atpollard]

The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord,
Like the rivers of water;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
Proverbs 21:1


Your insinuating that a God turns the heart of all mankind to be saved or not be saved, when it addresses the king, and specifically the king who wrote the proverb.

Do you have something to indicate that God manipulates the King’s heart, but all other hearts are off-limits?

Philippians 2:13 explicitly credits God as the source for manipulating the heart of all believers to DESIRE and to DO according to the wishes of God. Why do you choose to strain gnats over the “king’s heart” and completely ignore the confirmation from the Apostle Paul? Why can you not believe what scripture says and trust that God is good and all his works are for your good?