Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Free Will is a Fallen Will

Was I upset? Can't be.....
What I'm upset with are those churches that are not truthful.
Other than that a person is free to believe what they believe....I'd just love to understand better how they could read into verses what is not there.....
:hug


So true.


Speaking of what’s not there, did you see what the main stream media did with pictures of a hospital in Italy, and tried to manufacture it as being in New York?


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...o-describe-conditions-in-new-york-city-video/
 
[Pro 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Do these mean the same thing?
One is what the dictionary says and the other is what God does.
I know atpollard...
we're just a bunch of robots made for His good pleasure.

Now, why a Sovereign and Almighty God would need US to prove how merciful He is, is rather a disturbing thought.

BUT

You haven't explained if you mean
EMPOWER
or
MANIPULATE

I guess you mean manipulate.

SO GOD MANIPULATES us just like little puppets.

Could you show me somewhere in the N.T. that explains this?
The O.T. is chock full of personal feelings and I'd prefer to hear straight from God ---JESUS---or one of His Apòstles.

Not to take away from the O.T.,,,which You refuse to believe since you do NOT accept Dueteronomy 31:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

as proof of having to make a choice, which involves free will....

or

Joshua 24:15
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Choosing involves making a free will choice,
or it is not a real choice....

And how could anyone believe in determinism when the following is taught in the O.T. ?

Deuteronomy 12:31
You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.


Did God predetermine that these babies would be burned?
If NOT,,,,,then is determinism an incorrect teaching?

And IF it IS a correct teaching, then how does one explain Deu 12:31 ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB
  1. The father in the parable was speaking metaphorically and not literally. The son was never physically dead and never became physically alive again. If you are going to argue that the son was spiritually dead and became spiritually alive again, then you are also arguing that he did it 100% on his own and we do not need a savior, we just need to save ourselves ... like the son did using his own free will and personal strength.


Jesus was speaking for this entire parable.
Jesus was putting words into the mouth of the father.
Because Jesus' parables are metaphorical does not make them incorrect. I like the word ANALOGY better, but either one will do.

Whoever said the son was physically dead?
Who said we do not need a Savior?
You ADD ideas to statement that are just not there.
The son, as all of us, need a Savior, this is why God sent His only Son to atone for our sins.
But it is our FREE WILL reply that allows us to make use of Jesus' sacrifice or not. BELIEVE and you will be saved.
Jesus died to free us from bondage to satan....
we have to ACCEPT that atonement sacrifice.

Of what purpose is the New Covenant if we need make no decision to be a part of it?

Why did Jesus have to die if it's God that does the choosing of who will be saved?
Jesus said if He died, He would draw all men to Himself...
GOD DRAWS
WE REPLY
or we'd have universalism....
HOW does the NEW COVENANT differ from the MOSAIC COVENANT??



  1. [Luke 15:17 NASB] 17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
    • Commentary from Matthew Henry:
      • A sinful state is a state of madness and frenzy. This is intimated in that expression (v. 17), when he came to himself, which intimates that he had been beside himself. Surely he was so when he left his father's house, and much more so when he joined himself to the citizen of that country. Madness is said to be in the heart of sinners, Eccl. 9:3. Satan has got possession of the soul; and how raging mad was he that was possessed by Legion! Sinners, like those that are mad, destroy themselves with foolish lusts, and yet at the same time deceive themselves with foolish hopes; and they are, of all diseased persons, most enemies to their own cure.
I'd say most sinners are not crazy, as the image you paint above....but this goes to total depravity and not free will.
  1. Different topic....
    • I propose that God alone has the power to cure the spiritual blindness that affects the lost. That is why Ephesians 2 describes how God makes us alive while we were still dead. God made the first move by healing the “insanity” that had blinded the Prodigal Son. Regeneration precedes faith.
      • [Act 2:37 NASB] 37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
      • [Act 16:14 NASB] 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
    [*]
Yes, God alone can heal spiritual blindness.
And the Father is always waiting for us to return.
We've gone into Ephesians 2 numerous times.
God makes the first move...agreed.
Regeneration does not precede faith.
Acts 16:14 Lydia was ALREADY a worshipper of God...

14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.


And as to Acts 2:37
You forgot to post the entire verse....
What was the answer to BRETHREN, WHAT SHALL WE DO?
Here it is:

Acts 2:37-42
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.


Peter said:

1. REPENT
2. BE BAPTIZED
3. FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN
4. THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL BE RECEIVED

So the order is:
repent
THEN the Holy Spirit will be received.

This is ALWAYS the order.
First comes BELIEF
THEN REGENERATION
 
The father in the parable was speaking metaphorically and not literally. The son was never physically dead and never became physically alive again. If you are going to argue that the son was spiritually dead and became spiritually alive again, then you are also arguing that he did it 100% on his own and we do not need a savior, we just need to save ourselves ... like the son did using his own free will and personal strength.

The parable of the prodigal son teaches us many things.


One of the most important things to me that this story teaches is:

God’s children who wander away from Him and become lost are still loved by God and He is eager to receive them back if they return.

If they do return to Him, He is waiting with open arms to receive them are restore them back into the family of God without scorn or ridicule, but love and forgiveness.


This is in stark contrast to the narrative of Calvinism, which says
they were never God’s children to begin with.

IOW, they were never saved.

Here is the scripture many have used to validate this claim.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 1 John 2:19


How discouraging this is to the person who becomes lost and beat down with guilt and shame, thinking because they wandered away and became lost, they must not be “predestined”, in which they just give up, and never return to God.



Truly sad.





JLB
 
A few thoughts as I'm reading the different views here.

Does God offer salvation to everyone freely? Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. But those who reject Jesus have already been condemned, because they reject the Son of God.

I think God knows what our choices are before we choose them. But He gives us a choice to make anyways. Freely offers again and again for our hearts and our lives to turn to Him. We fail before we were Christian, and we fail after we are Christian too many times to be able to say something praiseworthy of our choices that we make. But God is patient and sometimes we face the same kind of test over and over again until God helps us through it and we choose the right path. (Including the path to being saved and being Christian, but also to be able to grow in maturity and turn from our sinful habits, or to grow in love and kindness through our humble weaknesses).

What about God's actions though. Has He chosen us specifically, or has He called to the whole world to come to Him and made that choice possible for us all to recieve. Both can be discussed as true from biblical verses. So in some way I think both are true.

The verses in the bible though change several points of the arguments of (for and against) free will. The three stances that I am aware of are that

1) We have free will. This often seems to ignore or minimize the verses that say that God is in control, as well, as the verses that God will hold on to us and neither powers on Heaven or hell, or anything on earth can take us away from Him. As well as the verses that we are selected by God.

2) Our paths are determined and already known. Those who are Christian are chosen. This side also ignores and minimizes the verses that focus on our choice in choosing God, in repenting, in turning from our sins. The active choice is so frequently written about in the bible that there is too much to ignore and to put blinders on about having a constant call to choose God, listen to Him, and to be obedient instead of rebel.

3) Some people are chosen and predetermined and their lives follow that path but most others are not like this. The problem I see with this position is trying to apply certian bible verses to yourself and at the same time not apply the others. This position isn't just about determinism though. I've seen it more often when relating to God's promises or His warnings. That God's promises to Israel were meant only for Israel and not for Christians as a whole. Or they were specific to the prophet He was talking to, saying He chose them from in the womb, not speaking to Christians as a whole.

The problem with each of these views is that they focus on some portions of the bible and on others they think it wasn't written for them, or that it was an exaggeration or a misunderstanding (such as translators translating it wrong, or that prophet putting his own inflection on it more and not co poetry from God), or that it is just ignored.

I don't have an answer except to say that God is in control, and that we do have a choice. How that works out in our lives I don't know but they must both be true because they are both observable in our lives and in the bible.
 
A second thought on this topic is that this topic circles around a question that many people ask in one way or another. "What must I do in order to recieve heaven?" This question was asked directly to Jesus from a religous teacher Nicodemus. And Jesus answered him what he should do.
 
A second thought on this topic is that this topic circles around a question that many people ask in one way or another. "What must I do in order to recieve heaven?" This question was asked directly to Jesus from a religous teacher Nicodemus. And Jesus answered him what he should do.
I've zeroed in on this question many times but the reformed do not accept it.

The jailer asked what he must do to be saved...
He was told to believe in Jesus.

Everywhere in the N.T. where soteriology is spoken of, we're told to believe and we will be saved. The answer is always that it's speaking to those that are already believers --- IOW, it's a statement and not an instruction.

Ditto for Nicodemus....

Am reading your longer post above....
 
A few thoughts as I'm reading the different views here.

Does God offer salvation to everyone freely? Jesus came to save the world not to condemn it. But those who reject Jesus have already been condemned, because they reject the Son of God.
We're born already condemned,,,
we have to turn toward God to become saved.
Those who do not believe in free will say that we cannot do this of our own, but God must do this for us.

I think God knows what our choices are before we choose them. But He gives us a choice to make anyways. Freely offers again and again for our hearts and our lives to turn to Him. We fail before we were Christian, and we fail after we are Christian too many times to be able to say something praiseworthy of our choices that we make. But God is patient and sometimes we face the same kind of test over and over again until God helps us through it and we choose the right path. (Including the path to being saved and being Christian, but also to be able to grow in maturity and turn from our sinful habits, or to grow in love and kindness through our humble weaknesses).
God knows what our choice will be,,,,but He still leaves it up to us...
His knowing has nothing to do with our choosing....

What about God's actions though. Has He chosen us specifically, or has He called to the whole world to come to Him and made that choice possible for us all to recieve. Both can be discussed as true from biblical verses. So in some way I think both are true.
I agree here too.
He can choose us in two ways:
Directly: Like He chose Judas, or Mary, or Jacob, or Isaac, or Abraham.....

Indirectly: God chooses us but based on our following His recipe for salvation....Those who follow His recipe are chosen by Him.

Both are true.
Who can understand the ways of God?
I don't like to put Him in a box.

The verses in the bible though change several points of the arguments of (for and against) free will. The three stances that I am aware of are that

1) We have free will. This often seems to ignore or minimize the verses that say that God is in control, as well, as the verses that God will hold on to us and neither powers on Heaven or hell, or anything on earth can take us away from Him. As well as the verses that we are selected by God.

2) Our paths are determined and already known. Those who are Christian are chosen. This side also ignores and minimizes the verses that focus on our choice in choosing God, in repenting, in turning from our sins. The active choice is so frequently written about in the bible that there is too much to ignore and to put blinders on about having a constant call to choose God, listen to Him, and to be obedient instead of rebel.

3) Some people are chosen and predetermined and their lives follow that path but most others are not like this. The problem I see with this position is trying to apply certian bible verses to yourself and at the same time not apply the others. This position isn't just about determinism though. I've seen it more often when relating to God's promises or His warnings. That God's promises to Israel were meant only for Israel and not for Christians as a whole. Or they were specific to the prophet He was talking to, saying He chose them from in the womb, not speaking to Christians as a whole.
:clap

Yes!
I've often said that it's difficult to understand God's sovereignty aligning with man's free will...and yet this is what we read in both the O.T. and the N.T. I do believe the N.T. is more clear on this...
but surely it's not easy to understand.

God has a great plan and yet man is free to choose. Somehow God can work around our choices...Like Joseph...his brothers meant it for evil...but God worked it for the good.

The problem with each of these views is that they focus on some portions of the bible and on others they think it wasn't written for them, or that it was an exaggeration or a misunderstanding (such as translators translating it wrong, or that prophet putting his own inflection on it more and not co poetry from God), or that it is just ignored.

I don't have an answer except to say that God is in control, and that we do have a choice. How that works out in our lives I don't know but they must both be true because they are both observable in our lives and in the bible.
:thumbsup

Always such good posts....
 
I agree that’s why I don’t use Trinity.

I use Godhead.
Godhead, as used in Scripture, does not mean Trinity, One God in three ‘persons’. So you have no word to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all being One God.
 
You haven't explained if you mean
EMPOWER
or
MANIPULATE
I mean RESURRECT and TRANSFORM (which are neither “empower” nor “manipulate”).

God starts with a dead heart and makes it alive ... both an act of Divine Resurrection and Divine Transformation. God takes the spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive ... another act of Divine Resurrection and Divine Transformation. God takes a broken soul, chained in the mire of its sin and emptiness and performs an act of Divine Resurrection and Divine Transformation creating a new person, healed in their soul, united with Christ, freed from slavery to sin and now filled with hope and purpose.
 
Godhead, as used in Scripture, does not mean Trinity, One God in three ‘persons’. So you have no word to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all being One God.
What does Godhead mean?

BTW,,,,it's 3 persons in 1 God. (not the other way around).
 
I mean RESURRECT and TRANSFORM (which are neither “empower” nor “manipulate”).

God starts with a dead heart and makes it alive ... both an act of Divine Resurrection and Divine Transformation. God takes the spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive ... another act of Divine Resurrection and Divine Transformation. God takes a broken soul, chained in the mire of its sin and emptiness and performs an act of Divine Resurrection and Divine Transformation creating a new person, healed in their soul, united with Christ, freed from slavery to sin and now filled with hope and purpose.
We need a thread on TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

I agree with what you've stated...
Just not how one gets there.
 
This is in stark contrast to the narrative of Calvinism, which says
they were never God’s children to begin with.

IOW, they were never saved.
Just for the record, it is the Apostle John’s narrative and not John Calvin’s narrative that you are objecting to:

[1 John 2:18-24 NASB]
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
 
Godhead, as used in Scripture, does not mean Trinity, One God in three ‘persons’. So you have no word to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all being One God.


Please share the scripture that says Godhead doesn’t mean Trinity.
 
Just for the record, it is the Apostle John’s narrative and not John Calvin’s narrative that you are objecting to:


I really don’t know what John Calvin taught.

I just know what you teach, and I disagree with some of it.


Here are some things the Apostle John wrote that are in stark contrast to what Calvinist believe.


Jesus said we must remain in Him, or be cast into the fire and burned.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how John instructed us to remain in Christ —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


John says that to know Him is eternal life.


And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


Christians who claim to have eternal life, “know Him”, yet do not keep His commandments, are not being honest.


John also says keeping His Commandments are the definition of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Those who do not keep His Commandments, walk in the way of hate.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


John says a brother in Christ, who hates another brother, is a murderer, and does not have eternal life in them.



What do you say about these things that John says?





JLB
 
Just for the record, it is the Apostle John’s narrative and not John Calvin’s narrative that you are objecting to:

[1 John 2:18-24 NASB]
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out,] so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not [really] of us

They
refers to antichrists, the object of his last statement, are the ones who went out from “us”.




The context John is referring to is antichrists who went out from us, not His sheep, His followers.






JLB
 
We need a thread on TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

I agree with what you've stated...
Just not how one gets there.

I started one already.


 
A second thought on this topic is that this topic circles around a question that many people ask in one way or another. "What must I do in order to recieve heaven?" This question was asked directly to Jesus from a religous teacher Nicodemus. And Jesus answered him what he should do.

Do you believe that a person who is born again, can wander away from Him and become lost?



JLB
 
Back
Top