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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Free will or no free will?
- Thread starter Heidi
- Start date
jgredline said:
jgredline said:
jgredline,
My apologies, your right, there has been some restraint in your words. I would prefer you continue your conversation.
Bubba,
I will be away for a week or two, but would like to ask you a question.
bubba said:
bubba said:
Bubba, I am not sure I am following you. If I understand you right, you believe God decreed the fall, but did not decree that the reprobate after the fall would be damned?
mondar said:
Mondar,
What I was trying to express, is that when discussing God's high decrees, the Supralapsarian logic seems to be the best approach, since we are discussing events that happened prior to creation. The Infralapsarian position, that God decided who were His after the "FALL" when sin became a reality, is a more palatable position. This is because, this view has God choosing who are His from the mass of sinful humanity after the "Fall", not before.The problem with this position (to me), is that there is so many verses which speak to before the foundation of earth that this decision was made. The Infra position has God passively leaving the reprobate in their sins, where as the Supra have God deciding the reprobate destiny prior to sin entering the world.To me, logic is on High Calvinist position.
We need to becareful when discussion God's high decrees especially in regards to the earth realm we live in. If we do not, then Hyper Calvinism will raise it's evil head, where the whole notion of grace for the elect and a general grace for the lost is forgotten completely.
Blessings, Bubba
reply
It's amazing to me how many use these fancy words, supralapsrain to explain God's Word. They just have to use these big intellectual words to describe things. When I went to Bible College, we just studied the Word of God without the emphasis on using these fancy definitioins to explain things. I am just a simple man of faith and don't need a greek lexicon or other unnecessary tools. to get the meaning of God's Word. I have learned how to be led by the Spirit and follow His lead. In fact, He never used words that I don't understand.
There is a big danger in intellectualizing God's Word. It can lead to doubt and a result of that, false conclusions. To me, the Calvanists and Reformers are too big on intellectualism. Some don't believe Eternal torment. Some don't believe that the Jews are in God's plan. Some don't understand God's plan about the end-times. Some don't believe that God is past, present, And future. Many don't underrstand faith, which the Bible says is the only way to please God. And even some deny that Jesus is God.
I know I probably offended some, but I just had to get this off my chest. Therefore, I believe we should all follow our Heart, which is what the Spirit is saying to our spirits. Remember the devil can speak to our minds, and really get us off in Doctrinal error. My advice is not to follow your intellect, but follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, learn not to listen to a voice of a stranger, and be obedient to what God is saying to your spirit-man by the inward voice. .
May God bless, Golfjack
It's amazing to me how many use these fancy words, supralapsrain to explain God's Word. They just have to use these big intellectual words to describe things. When I went to Bible College, we just studied the Word of God without the emphasis on using these fancy definitioins to explain things. I am just a simple man of faith and don't need a greek lexicon or other unnecessary tools. to get the meaning of God's Word. I have learned how to be led by the Spirit and follow His lead. In fact, He never used words that I don't understand.
There is a big danger in intellectualizing God's Word. It can lead to doubt and a result of that, false conclusions. To me, the Calvanists and Reformers are too big on intellectualism. Some don't believe Eternal torment. Some don't believe that the Jews are in God's plan. Some don't understand God's plan about the end-times. Some don't believe that God is past, present, And future. Many don't underrstand faith, which the Bible says is the only way to please God. And even some deny that Jesus is God.
I know I probably offended some, but I just had to get this off my chest. Therefore, I believe we should all follow our Heart, which is what the Spirit is saying to our spirits. Remember the devil can speak to our minds, and really get us off in Doctrinal error. My advice is not to follow your intellect, but follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, learn not to listen to a voice of a stranger, and be obedient to what God is saying to your spirit-man by the inward voice. .
May God bless, Golfjack
Bubba said:
I would agree that the decree of God concerning the elect occurs before salvation. Ephesians 1:4 makes that undisputable.
Bubba said:
Is it post or pre creation decrees that is the issue? Is not the question concern if God is actively reprobating the damned in eternity past or is God passively leaving the reprobate to their fate?
Bubba said:
Certainly we want to recognize both common grace as well as the wonderful grace of God to the elect. I also notice the term Hyper-Calvinism again. I always like the moniker Sproul gave it... "sub-Calvinism."
G
Guest
Guest
Re: reply
Ultimately I believe there are those truths that are essential. Namely, Belief in God and Belief that He provided a way unto Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ as the only way for atonement of sin.
I am somewhat of a Reformer - there is book out about Mennonites with the title: Not Protestant and not Catholic. We tend to be a third option. Some of us are more Reformed in our theology. I would not call myself a Calvinist - but there are parts of the doctrine that I agree with. I am also an amillennialist (even if I can't spell the word half the time). I believe that Israel was God's chosen people for a specific task - to be a witness to the nations around them. Just as I believe that the church (the called out ones) are supposed to be a witness to the people around us. A witness that testifies to the goodness and Holiness of God.
I say this, not to say that I am right in my convictions and that you are all wrong - but rather- this is how I understand what it is that God has done, is doing, and will do in my life and the life of humanity. Perhaps others see it differently, or it makes sense to them - as long as they are preaching Christ crucified, then that is okay with me.
golfjack said:
Ultimately I believe there are those truths that are essential. Namely, Belief in God and Belief that He provided a way unto Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ as the only way for atonement of sin.
I am somewhat of a Reformer - there is book out about Mennonites with the title: Not Protestant and not Catholic. We tend to be a third option. Some of us are more Reformed in our theology. I would not call myself a Calvinist - but there are parts of the doctrine that I agree with. I am also an amillennialist (even if I can't spell the word half the time). I believe that Israel was God's chosen people for a specific task - to be a witness to the nations around them. Just as I believe that the church (the called out ones) are supposed to be a witness to the people around us. A witness that testifies to the goodness and Holiness of God.
I say this, not to say that I am right in my convictions and that you are all wrong - but rather- this is how I understand what it is that God has done, is doing, and will do in my life and the life of humanity. Perhaps others see it differently, or it makes sense to them - as long as they are preaching Christ crucified, then that is okay with me.
Mondar writes:
"Is it post or pre creation decrees that is the issue? Is not the question concern if God is actively reprobating the damned in eternity past or is God passively leaving the reprobate to their fate? "
Mondar,
I think what happened on this thread was that Heidi dealt more on the side of God actively decreeing the damnation of the reprobate (which is hard to even imagine if you are in the freewill camp), where most can handle Calvinism if your using the R.C. Sproul infra position that God decrees the damnation of the reprobate after the "Fall" by passively leaving them in their sin.
Bubba
"Is it post or pre creation decrees that is the issue? Is not the question concern if God is actively reprobating the damned in eternity past or is God passively leaving the reprobate to their fate? "
Mondar,
I think what happened on this thread was that Heidi dealt more on the side of God actively decreeing the damnation of the reprobate (which is hard to even imagine if you are in the freewill camp), where most can handle Calvinism if your using the R.C. Sproul infra position that God decrees the damnation of the reprobate after the "Fall" by passively leaving them in their sin.
Bubba
G
Guest
Guest
Bubba said:
Is it for us to know?
Seriously - are we to know and fully understand the inner workings of God's Decree - or are we to understand that God did decree - here is what it is, and here is what we are supposed to do.
Basically - We are Sinners. We can't Pay the Price. Jesus Can and Did. Believe in Him.
Does it need to get more complicated than that?
Drew
Member
Re: reply
I would advise the exact opposite as what this post suggests. I suggest that we think hard and carefully, study and learn. It would be nice if it were a simple matter of sitting back and "downloading" what the Spirit has to say to us. I think that God does not operate this way at all. He is a God of incredible sophistication and subtlety and it takes work to make real progress in understanding our place in His plans.
A classic example is this whole "immortal soul" thing. So many Christians have simply and unthinkingly absorbed this idea which comes from Greek sources, that they never even question what the Hebrew writers of Scripture really meant when they referred to "souls" and "spirits". I believe that the resulting mis-characterization of man's nature has had significant hurtful effects on the church.
Same thing with the "rapture". I suggest that an informed reading of the Scriptures suggests that no such event will take place, at least not as characterized in American evangelicalism.
Thinking is hard, really tiring and really hard, but it is worth it.
Wow. I could hardly disagree more with this position. I think it is in large because of our intellectual laxity that the evangelical church is so ineffectual.golfjack said:
I would advise the exact opposite as what this post suggests. I suggest that we think hard and carefully, study and learn. It would be nice if it were a simple matter of sitting back and "downloading" what the Spirit has to say to us. I think that God does not operate this way at all. He is a God of incredible sophistication and subtlety and it takes work to make real progress in understanding our place in His plans.
A classic example is this whole "immortal soul" thing. So many Christians have simply and unthinkingly absorbed this idea which comes from Greek sources, that they never even question what the Hebrew writers of Scripture really meant when they referred to "souls" and "spirits". I believe that the resulting mis-characterization of man's nature has had significant hurtful effects on the church.
Same thing with the "rapture". I suggest that an informed reading of the Scriptures suggests that no such event will take place, at least not as characterized in American evangelicalism.
Thinking is hard, really tiring and really hard, but it is worth it.
Heidi said:But God also tells us tha He will harden hearts like he did with Pharoah and Saul. ;-) And Zechariah also tells us that God will raise up a "foolish shepherd" (the anti-Christ.). So God is not only foreknowing but he is actively involved in people's lives.
Proverbs 16:9, "In his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."
Hello Heidi, let me introduce myself.... : ) I am "mondar who overlooks certain posts." I noticed that this is the 2nd time you mentined Romans 9. I would agree that Romans 9 is a key passage concerning the sovereignty of God. I think it would be fun to discuss Romans 9 sometime. Unfortunately, I am about to go away for a while. I will not be online for a a week or two.
I would agree that God is actively involved in peoples lives, but I think it is important to understand what God did with the Pharaoh in Romans 9. Exactly what part do you think God played in the Pharaoh's life that hardened his heart? Do you think the concept of raising up Pharaoh in 9:17 had anything to do with the hardening of Pharaoh's heart? Did God do more then raising Pharaoh up? What do you think it means... to raise Pharaoh up?
See you in a week or two.
R
Rick W
Guest
mondar said:
:smt017
Oh, and by the way,
Pennsylvania - USA - Northern Hemisphere - Earth - Solar System - Milky Way Galixie - Universe - Mind of God
:wink:
lovely
Member
Hi everyone,
I think that we need to remember why we have been created. We were meant to glorify God, and to serve His will...willingly. There is absolutely nothing free about our will, not in the humanist definition. Satan deceived Adam into thinking that he was somehow choosing things for himself, for his own benefit, serving his own will in an independent fashion, but he was actually serving satan's will. This is the state of fallen men, now. We begin as unbeliever's who willfully sin. After becoming believers, then our will is changed. We still sin, but it is not willful because we have the righteousness of Christ. (I am not making an argument that we have license to sin, btw...far from it.)
John 7 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
This is the pattern that Christ has given us, and this is what makes us 'free' now in spirit, but we will only truly have a free will in Heaven when we have new bodies. There, we are able to serve Him as we have been created to do...this is true freedom...this is where our will is aligned with His completely.
Let's look at the next verse, he is still speaking to the Jews...
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Jesus is showing them their sin with the law that they say they love so much, by the words of the one they seemed to worship...Moses. He reveals their motive to kill Him, and their obvious inability to keep the law, but even after that they do not see that He offers them grace. They actually end up saying He has a devil. Their eyes are not opened, they do not have the witness of the Holy Spirit in their spirits. Faith is not a product of man's will, faith is believing in that we do not see because God has opened our eyes spiritually. We do not will this, and I do not see any scriptures that teach we do. Grace through Faith is what transforms man's will to seek the will of the Father. I believe that God is sovereign. I don't know what all His methods are, or everything He uses to glorify Himself and have His will done, but I do know that I am only a vessel in the process. It's my responsiblity to walk my salvation out with fear and trembling...knowing I am easily deceived, and striving in the Spirit to be an overcomer in Christ.
I think that we really need to shed our self when we look at this topic, and realize that our will could never serve us (be truly free and independent), and that if we are His we shouldn't want it to.
Just my thoughts on the topic...
The Lord bless all of you.
I think that we need to remember why we have been created. We were meant to glorify God, and to serve His will...willingly. There is absolutely nothing free about our will, not in the humanist definition. Satan deceived Adam into thinking that he was somehow choosing things for himself, for his own benefit, serving his own will in an independent fashion, but he was actually serving satan's will. This is the state of fallen men, now. We begin as unbeliever's who willfully sin. After becoming believers, then our will is changed. We still sin, but it is not willful because we have the righteousness of Christ. (I am not making an argument that we have license to sin, btw...far from it.)
John 7 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
This is the pattern that Christ has given us, and this is what makes us 'free' now in spirit, but we will only truly have a free will in Heaven when we have new bodies. There, we are able to serve Him as we have been created to do...this is true freedom...this is where our will is aligned with His completely.
Let's look at the next verse, he is still speaking to the Jews...
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Jesus is showing them their sin with the law that they say they love so much, by the words of the one they seemed to worship...Moses. He reveals their motive to kill Him, and their obvious inability to keep the law, but even after that they do not see that He offers them grace. They actually end up saying He has a devil. Their eyes are not opened, they do not have the witness of the Holy Spirit in their spirits. Faith is not a product of man's will, faith is believing in that we do not see because God has opened our eyes spiritually. We do not will this, and I do not see any scriptures that teach we do. Grace through Faith is what transforms man's will to seek the will of the Father. I believe that God is sovereign. I don't know what all His methods are, or everything He uses to glorify Himself and have His will done, but I do know that I am only a vessel in the process. It's my responsiblity to walk my salvation out with fear and trembling...knowing I am easily deceived, and striving in the Spirit to be an overcomer in Christ.
I think that we really need to shed our self when we look at this topic, and realize that our will could never serve us (be truly free and independent), and that if we are His we shouldn't want it to.
Just my thoughts on the topic...
The Lord bless all of you.
jgredline
Member
Lovely
Now usually I will agree with you, but not in this case..
Does God force us to love him? How can we willingly serve and Love a God who we can't see? is it really Love if we don't have a choice?
While I agree that man was created for the sole purpose of worshiping the creator, why is it that not all people do?....
What role does the Holy Spirit play in all of this?
Are you saying that God forced Eve into chomping on the fruit?
It sure sounds like Adam and eve had a choice...They could not have been deceived if they did not have a choice..
Now usually I will agree with you, but not in this case..
Does God force us to love him? How can we willingly serve and Love a God who we can't see? is it really Love if we don't have a choice?
While I agree that man was created for the sole purpose of worshiping the creator, why is it that not all people do?....
What role does the Holy Spirit play in all of this?
Are you saying that God forced Eve into chomping on the fruit?
It sure sounds like Adam and eve had a choice...They could not have been deceived if they did not have a choice..
Vic C.
Member
Bubba, I think most of us would agree that we believe that verse, along with ALL the related passages, from the first to last page of the Bible.Bubba said:
Let me post the verse:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
This one verse sheds light on whose Faith is the real saving Faith. :wink:
lovely
Member
Hi Javier,
We don't always have to agree. I cherish you as my brother either way...you to vic. :D Bubba, I have been alone on some of these topics at times, and it is a nice feeling when someone is in general agreement. I still feel loved by most here even in our disagreement, though.
Okay, back to topic. Here are my thoughts...
God didn't force me to love Him, He created me to love Him. Man was created to love and glorify God, to be in communion with Him, and to serve Him willingly. Freedom of the will, is to do His will...willingly...as Christ did. The Truth sets us free, and in that truth we freely serve God as Christ served the Father. This is the ultimate state of freedom, joy, worship, etc. In contrast, in the lie, or deception, we willfully disobey God, and fail to believe Him. This is the ultimate state of being bound, hopeless, and unthankful.
I do not believe that Adam and Eve had wills in the same state as ours. I do not believe that Christ had a will in the same state as ours, or theirs. I think there are obvious reasons, but if you want me elaborate I will. I think there are some differences between all three will states. I honestly do not know why God allowed Adam to be tempted, but I do know that in eternity we will not have to worry about temptation.
I don't want to map this out too far, honestly. I think that it is impossible to understand God fully in an intellectual way, or a systematic way, because we have a relationship with Him, and we are just fallible...that is why we should, must, rely so completely on the Holy Spirit, and the Word, to guide us, and to illuminate our paths. I also think that Scriptural concepts are so interconnected that we do not have the ability, or time, to explain or fully understand all the connections.
I don't believe Scripture teaches that man has a free will. What is fair about expecting a man in utter darkness, utter hopelessness, to find God...to save himself...through a will that is blind to the Light of Truth? God has to open his eyes. Man is always serving, and his will is not ever going to serve himself. We see free will as the source of our faith, and I don't see where Scripture teaches this. God is the source of our faith, it is not of ourselves. If the Holy Spirit draws me, and I receive the faith, but draws another and it serves to harden them through their rejection of the faith...is this an example of free will, of men choosing from some free place inside themselves? No, they choose through a will that has been given sight, and is free to finally serve God in the light of Truth, or from one that is continuing on in blindness and serving satan in dark deception. I believe a man's choice is just one medium that God uses to accomplish His will on various levels, and I also believe that men who are either receiving or rejecting the Truth are doing so willingly...depending on whom they serve (depending on the state of their wills)...but that the ultimate source of both actions are rooted in God's sovereignty, justice (which may leave them in darkness), and mercy (which may shine in them the light of Truth).
We desire independence, individuality, and free will. Why do we want it so much? I think it is a humanist idea to be very honest, and it's part of us desiring to humanize God, and make Him fit in with our sentiments and philosophies, and really just part of us centering things around ourselves...our own intellect. The problem with the church isn't our lack of intelligence, it's our lack of obedience in loving God, and others, and relying on His grace completely. God is who He says He is, and there are plenty of verses that speak to His sovereignty in the salvation process, to Him electing, willing, creating, and so on, us for His glory, and to be overcomers.
God showing mercy is not forcing us to love Him, but freeing us to love Him; To be a creation that serves Him willingly in our designed roles. I am trying to explain this well, javier. I hope I have. Anyway, I hope you see my heart on the matter, even if we continue in disagreement. The Lord bless you.
We don't always have to agree. I cherish you as my brother either way...you to vic. :D Bubba, I have been alone on some of these topics at times, and it is a nice feeling when someone is in general agreement. I still feel loved by most here even in our disagreement, though.
Okay, back to topic. Here are my thoughts...
God didn't force me to love Him, He created me to love Him. Man was created to love and glorify God, to be in communion with Him, and to serve Him willingly. Freedom of the will, is to do His will...willingly...as Christ did. The Truth sets us free, and in that truth we freely serve God as Christ served the Father. This is the ultimate state of freedom, joy, worship, etc. In contrast, in the lie, or deception, we willfully disobey God, and fail to believe Him. This is the ultimate state of being bound, hopeless, and unthankful.
I do not believe that Adam and Eve had wills in the same state as ours. I do not believe that Christ had a will in the same state as ours, or theirs. I think there are obvious reasons, but if you want me elaborate I will. I think there are some differences between all three will states. I honestly do not know why God allowed Adam to be tempted, but I do know that in eternity we will not have to worry about temptation.
I don't want to map this out too far, honestly. I think that it is impossible to understand God fully in an intellectual way, or a systematic way, because we have a relationship with Him, and we are just fallible...that is why we should, must, rely so completely on the Holy Spirit, and the Word, to guide us, and to illuminate our paths. I also think that Scriptural concepts are so interconnected that we do not have the ability, or time, to explain or fully understand all the connections.
I don't believe Scripture teaches that man has a free will. What is fair about expecting a man in utter darkness, utter hopelessness, to find God...to save himself...through a will that is blind to the Light of Truth? God has to open his eyes. Man is always serving, and his will is not ever going to serve himself. We see free will as the source of our faith, and I don't see where Scripture teaches this. God is the source of our faith, it is not of ourselves. If the Holy Spirit draws me, and I receive the faith, but draws another and it serves to harden them through their rejection of the faith...is this an example of free will, of men choosing from some free place inside themselves? No, they choose through a will that has been given sight, and is free to finally serve God in the light of Truth, or from one that is continuing on in blindness and serving satan in dark deception. I believe a man's choice is just one medium that God uses to accomplish His will on various levels, and I also believe that men who are either receiving or rejecting the Truth are doing so willingly...depending on whom they serve (depending on the state of their wills)...but that the ultimate source of both actions are rooted in God's sovereignty, justice (which may leave them in darkness), and mercy (which may shine in them the light of Truth).
We desire independence, individuality, and free will. Why do we want it so much? I think it is a humanist idea to be very honest, and it's part of us desiring to humanize God, and make Him fit in with our sentiments and philosophies, and really just part of us centering things around ourselves...our own intellect. The problem with the church isn't our lack of intelligence, it's our lack of obedience in loving God, and others, and relying on His grace completely. God is who He says He is, and there are plenty of verses that speak to His sovereignty in the salvation process, to Him electing, willing, creating, and so on, us for His glory, and to be overcomers.
God showing mercy is not forcing us to love Him, but freeing us to love Him; To be a creation that serves Him willingly in our designed roles. I am trying to explain this well, javier. I hope I have. Anyway, I hope you see my heart on the matter, even if we continue in disagreement. The Lord bless you.
vic C. said:
Vic,
I think you missed my point and may be Lovely's, I was referring to "...it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me". Other words, I am seen as perfect and now the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith and the life I now live is "in (NASV) the Son of God who loves me and gave Himself for me". If we totally believed that the transaction was this complete, how would we then live? No wonder Paul, and Calvinist's are accused of having a license to sin.
Bubba
ps. all good things come from above even our ability to believe (faith).