Free will or no free will?

[Heidi]

Please note the highlighted parts - I believe they speak for themselves.

Great verses. And God makes it clear who empowers people to do His will. And it ain't the sinful nature of man. :

 

[Bubba]

By suggesting that God creates people to go to hell and be in torment for all eternity with out a choice in the matter is a contradiction of his nature....

BBL...

Not everyone believes in conscious eternal punishment, but for those who do, how do reconcile a God who punishes people for not saying yes to Jesus for eternity, when they were only on earth for such a short time compared to eternity? Are you nonetheless creating a God who goes "over the top" and not fair with judgment?
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Not everyone believes in conscious eternal punishment, but for those who do, how do reconcile a God who punishes people for not saying yes to Jesus for eternity, when they were only on earth for such a short time compared to eternity? Are you nonetheless creating a God who goes "over the top" and not fair with judgment?
Bubba

God has to allow evil for people to understand good and at the same time, God has to punish evil. So no, he cannot allow all to be saved. But the interesting thing about this is that the atheists to whom I've witnessed don't want heaven. They've said that they don't care if they go to hell. They push Christians away as hard as they push heaven away. They do this knowing full well they could suffer for eternity. So because God is all-loving, he grants everyone his wish and hell is indeed fair and just because people have been warned. ;-)

 

[Guest]

God has to allow evil for people to understand good and at the same time, God has to punish evil. So no, he cannot allow all to be saved. But the interesting thing about this is that the atheists to whom I've witnessed don't want heaven. They've said that they don't care if they go to hell. They push Christians away as hard as they push heaven away. They do this knowing full well they could suffer for eternity. So because God is all-loving, he grants everyone his wish and hell is indeed fair and just because people have been warned. ;-)

Hedi - how can God 'grant everyone his wish" - when you are the one saying that God elects people to heaven and hell?

People do not have a 'wish' remember? They cannot have a wish if they cannot have a choice!

Heidi - it seems you are starting to contradict yourself. Not to mention that you are contradicting Scripture which clearly states that God desire is that all were to be saved - unfortunately people CHOOSE not to be.

Would you be so kind as to provide a verse that states or teaches that "God cannot allow all to be saved." Thank you in advance.

 

[Heidi]

Hedi - how can Gdd 'grant everyone his wish" - when you are the one saying that God elects people to heaven and hell?

People do not have a 'wish' remember? They cannot have a wish if they cannot have a choice!

Heidi - it seems you are starting to contradict yourself. Not to mention that you are contradicting Scripture which clearly states that God desire is that all were to be saved - unfortunately people CHOOSE not to be.

Would you be so kind as to provide a verse that states or teaches that "God cannot allow all to be saved." Thank you in advance.

But they don't know if God is drawing them or not. They can only respond out of the desire of their hearts. And atheists say emphatically, they don't want God. So God grants them their wish. They've been told they're wrong, but they don't care. So yes, indeed hell is fair and just. Or don't you think God is a just God for allowing eternal torment? :o Or perhaps you don't think that God is powerful enough to save everyone? If so, then why doesn';t he? So which is it? :o

 

[Guest]

But they don't know if God is drawing them or not. They can only respond out of the desire of their hearts. And atheists say emphatically, they don't want God. So God grants them their wish. They've been told they're wrong, but they don't care. So yes, indeed hell is fair and just. Or don't you think God is a just God for allowing eternal torment? :o Or perhaps you don't think that God is powerful enough to save everyone? If so, then why doesn';t he? So which is it? :o

Heidi - you are the one who has said that God elects some people to heaven and some people to hell. That this election is not based on human choice, but that God decided in eternity past who will be saved and who will not.

Now you are saying that God grants people their wish! And that these people don't know if God is drawing them or not! But why would God "draw"" people that He has already chosen will go to hell? So, how can God give them THEIR wish?

Again - do you have a verse or passage that teaches that "God cannot allow all to be saved?"

 

[jgredline]

No. I could no more believe scripture than I could believe that men from Mars invaded unless I saw them. I wanted desperately to believe scripture, but could not until I received the holy Spirit. Then within minutes, the words in the bible were as clear as a bell to me. So I absolutely understand personally what paul means when he says that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things that come from God.

So what's sad is that so many people don't know how much the Holy Spirit has done for them. They think it's their own human understanding of the bible when in reality, it's understanding that is coming from the Holy Spirit as the bible says; "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness in God's sight." So rely not on human understanding but spiritual understanding that only comes from the Holy Spirit, as Paul tells us.

God can't be evil. Only Satan is evil. So when God wants to teach humanity lessons, he sends Satan like he did to Job, Judas, Saul, etc.

God is in complete and total control of Satan. Read Revelations 20:1-9. Notice that an angel bound Satan for a thousand years. Then he let him loose again. So God has a reason for using Satan and decides when and why he will allow Satan to deceive the nations. ;-)

All John 3:16-18 means is that salvation is now open to anyone who wants it. And since man doesn't know if he is elected, he responds out of what his heart wants. That reconciles all scripture together.

Heidi
In this post two things stand out to me..
1) How did you receive the Holy Spirit? You make it sound as if it was forced on you...
2) You say that salvation is now open to anyone who wants it...This is a contradiction, because you have just given the choice ''to anyone who wants it''.......

 

[jgredline]

So the whole key to the free will issue is that only God knows who he is hardening, who he has prepared for destruction and who he has elected, but man does not. Romans 9:11 makes this very clear. So since man doesn't know what God has in mind for him, he feels free to respond out of the desires of his heart. And that again is what makes man without excuse and is the only plan that accomplishes all of God's purpose.

I have to get to bed now. We'll talk tomorrow.

Heidi
I suggest we need to place romans 9:11 in context...
Romans 9:1-13
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.†8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.â€Â
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.†13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€Â


This section of Romans is clearly addressed to Israel...as is evidenced by Paul wanting, willing that he be accursed than to see Israel burn in hell...When Paul speaks of Jacob and Esau, he is speaking of two nations....

In fact ''most'' of Romans chapters 9-11 is dealing with Israel....

 

[jgredline]

Jgredine,
“The Lord is …not willing that any should perish†2 Peter 3:9. Whom is the letter address to? Peter gives us the answer, “Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ†(2 Peter 1:1). He is writing to believers whom faith rests on the righteousness of God. What is the context of 2 Peter 3:9? The answer is “The Lord is not slack concerning His promises as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us…†Does He mean everyone, or only “to them that have obtained like “precious faith with us…†Why is the Lord longsuffering regarding His promised coming? The reason is obvious, He is “not willing that any of (US) should perish, but that all of (US) should come to repentance†2 Peter 3:4.
In John 3:16, does world always-mean every last person on earth? In John 12:19, “Behold the world is gone after Him!†Did every human on earth go after Jesus? No., I am sure there were babies, moms, sick people, older people, etc who did not follow after Jesus. “World†for a Calvinist, means men out of every tribe and nation, but not all men out of every tribe and nation. Kind of like the Olympics, the whole world is represented every 4 years, but not every person on earth is at the Olympics. In John 3:16, who is it that Christ died for?
1. Who is it that will not perish but have everlasting life?
2. Who is it that will believe, according to Scripture?
3. Who, then, is included in the word “world�

I think most people would agree, “Whosoever believeth in Himâ€Â. Jgredine would say everyone of his own freewill will, who trust in Jesus. Bubba says, ‘those whom the Father chose in Christ, of His own freewill will trust in Jesus. The interesting thing is that both groups acknowledge that the word “world†is those who believe in Christ and whom Jesus died for, but not all people, since not all will trust in Jesus.
Bubba

Bubba
You did not address this...While it is true that Peter is addressing Jewish believers, the same cannot be said of Paul....

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostleâ€â€I am speaking the truth in Christ andnot lying a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Is Gods desire full filled? NO...
Why is not Gods desire or will full filled?

 

[jgredline]

Actually being a puppet is complete and total surrender to God. There is no resistance and no rebellion. just: "I am yours." Funny how most people don't want to do that. :wink:

Absolutely he who believes in Christ is saved. And since no one knows who the elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. But the bible is crystal clear that there are those who are chosen and those who are not. That's scriptural, jgredline. :wink:

Heidi
Well at least you acknowledge that you believe in puppet master theology...which is right in-line with Hyper Calvinism....

As has been pointed out by a couple of other posters, you are contradicting
yourself.... Here again your a making a case for free will by acknowledging
''he who believes in Christ is saved''

 

[jgredline]

Bubba - noone here is doubting the sovereignty of God.

However, taking your explaniation - it still doesn't answer the question why the invitation needs to be given.

If God has already chosen who the 'elect' are - invitation or not - they are already elected and will go to heaven. Under your explanation, God is merely giving the allusion of humanity being able to make a decision to believe or not believe in Him.

I do not believe in a God that operates under the guise of allusion. Rather, I believe in a God who is able to be Soverign AND allow for human responsibility.

Yes - some of the greatest missionaries and evangelist believed in the sovereignty of God. But that does not necessarily make them a Calvinist.

After Peter's first sermon, the audience was 'pierced to the heart' and asked Peter - "what shall we do?".

What was Peter's response - "Repent". Did some reject, yes - that is spoken in verse 41 "So then, those who had received." - the implication is that there were those there that did not receive.

However, the choice was theirs to receive or not receive. God did and does everything necessary for someone to believe: He provided the means of Salvation (on the Cross), He provides the understanding of the need and the ability to believe (The ministry of the Holy Spirit) - it is then our responsibility (not credit) to believe or not believe.

What a magnificant God that operates sovereignly and respects our responsibility.

An excellent post and response... :smt023

 

[jgredline]

Not everyone believes in conscious eternal punishment, but for those who do, how do reconcile a God who punishes people for not saying yes to Jesus for eternity, when they were only on earth for such a short time compared to eternity? Are you nonetheless creating a God who goes "over the top" and not fair with judgment?
Bubba

Bubba
This would be a topic for another thread that I will be more than happy to discuss...Jesus is clear in Matt 25:41-46 that Hell is eternal and is a place of torment....

Gods nature is Grace, mercy and Love and he is Holy and he is absolutely righteous and he must punish sin because he is all those things.....But God has given us his son Jesus so that no one has to feel the flames of Hell...Unfortunately many will....for all eternity...

Here is where 5 point Calvinism starts to break apart...When you have theologians like John Stott changing there position on eternal torment and embrace annihilation to try and make Gods nature fit their theology, even at the audacity of calling Jesus a liar, then there is something very wrong......

 

[Heidi]

Bubba
This would be a topic for another thread that I will be more than happy to discuss...Jesus is clear in Matt 25:41-46 that Hell is eternal and is a place of torment....

Gods nature is Grace, mercy and Love and he is Holy and he is absolutely righteous and he must punish sin because he is all those things.....But God has given us his son Jesus so that no one has to feel the flames of Hell...Unfortunately many will....for all eternity...

Here is where 5 point Calvinism starts to break apart...When you have theologians like John Stott changing there position on eternal torment and embrace annihilation to try and make Gods nature fit their theology, even at the audacity of calling Jesus a liar, then there is something very wrong......

I agree with you about hell. But scripture also makes it clear that it's God's election who goes to heaven and hell. Or don't you believe Romans 9:11-25 & Epheisans 1:4? :-? I do.

 

[Guest]

I agree with you about hell. But scripture also makes it clear that it's God's election who goes to heaven and hell. Or don't you believe Romans 9:11-25 & Epheisans 1:4? :-? I do.

But you said that God gives people their wish?!?

So how can God elect who is going to heaven or hell, and at the same time give people their wish?

You are contradicting yourself Heidi.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

As I wrote earlier: I go back to Jacob and Esau, though both were in the womb together and neither had done anything wrong, God chose Jacob over Esau, even though the Biblical account of Jacob's behavior after his birth was horrific. God decided to have Jacob as his elect and Esau became a symbol of the non-elect and a nation of non-elect. Yet, it all began as two individuals and God for no other reason then for His own good pleasure chose one over the other

No, God chose Jacob because he respected and wanted the Birth Right to God's blessing, Esau didn't care and even sold it to him for a meal. God doesn't do anything without a reason. And Bubba, if you understood that when Peter is talking about election or the World that was, and is, and is yet to come, he is refering to the word Aeons or Ages, not a different world, but a different world age. Why, because in the last world age before the Katabole, (before God destroyed it with water) he knew Esau would not follow him, but Satan instead. This is why the race of Esau, isn't mentioned with Abraham's, but seperately. This is why the Idumean's were ruling over the House of Judah at the time of Christ, under Herod's line. This is why today, Russia being descendants of Esau are Anti-God, and there greatest threat are the sons of Jacob who is America and British Isles. This is why Paul was told to go to the Lost sheep of Israel!

 

[Bubba]

No, God chose Jacob because he respected and wanted the Birth Right to God's blessing, Esau didn't care and even sold it to him for a meal. God doesn't do anything without a reason. And Bubba, if you understood that when Peter is talking about election or the World that was, and is, and is yet to come, he is refering to the word Aeons or Ages, not a different world, but a different world age. Why, because in the last world age before the Katabole, (before God destroyed it with water) he knew Esau would not follow him, but Satan instead. This is why the race of Esau, isn't mentioned with Abraham's, but seperately. This is why the Idumean's were ruling over the House of Judah at the time of Christ, under Herod's line. This is why today, Russia being descendants of Esau are Anti-God, and there greatest threat are the sons of Jacob who is America and British Isles. This is why Paul was told to go to the Lost sheep of Israel!

Romans 9:11
11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

 

[jgredline]

Romans 9:11
11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Who was Paul addressing here?

 

[Bubba]

Bubba
You did not address this...While it is true that Peter is addressing Jewish believers, the same cannot be said of Paul....

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostleâ€â€I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Is Gods desire full filled? NO...
Why is not Gods desire or will full filled?

Jgredine,
What God decrees and what He desires can have distinctions, yes, He desires the salvation of all men, but His high decree is that only those who are elect are actually saved:

The absolute sovereignty to God in all things is perfectly consistent with God's Word which declares that,
• We have been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11)
• God declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure (Is.46:10)
• All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast Thou done?' (Dan.4:35)
• Our God is in the heavens. He does whatever He pleases (Ps.115:3)

Even though His decrees are absolute, His desires can be distinguished from His decrees. Here is an example from Brian Anderson:
“We can distinguish between God's decree and desire if we consider the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Peter could declare, "This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death" (Acts 2:23). The crucifixion of Christ was according to God's sovereign decree. Yet, the men who crucified Christ are called "godless" men. We know that God does not desire that men commit sin. Instead, His Word reveals that He is pleased with holiness and obedience, whereas sin always offends and grieves Him wherever it is found. Thus, in the crucifixion of Christ we have an example of something God decreed that He does not necessarily desire, or take pleasure in.â€Â


In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, "As I live! I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?" Again." This verse definitely is an example of God’s desire. Yet, His high decree can be found in Ezekiel 36:22-29:

21But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came.
22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.
25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses…â€Â

The conclusion is that God does desire all men to be saved, but only those He makes alive spiritually actually are (high decree).
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Heidi
In this post two things stand out to me..
1) How did you receive the Holy Spirit? You make it sound as if it was forced on you...
2) You say that salvation is now open to anyone who wants it...This is a contradiction, because you have just given the choice ''to anyone who wants it''.......

Jgredline, when you meet someone, was the meeting forced upon you? No. The holy Spirit no more was forced upon me than he was on Paul. But paul did not wake up one day and decide to become a Christian. God opened his eyes so he saw the world differently. And that's what the Holy Spirit did for me also.

I have a question for you. The bible says that we become a new creation wehn we are born again. The old is gone and the new has come. Don't you feel like a new creation since you were born again? If not, then I can see why you are confused about what regeneration does tothe born again believer. It also shows that you may not know if you are born again. But if you do know, then how do you know? :-? When did you pass from death to life?

It sounds like you only know and believe the few verses you've quoted. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." What about that do you not believe?

What about these verses do you not believe:

Romans 11;32
Romans 9:11-25
Romans 8:20
1 Corinthians 2:14
2 Corinthians 4:4
Romans 1:18-31

For starters. So until you address those verses in depth, then you and I can't go any farther. I've explained enough already. Now it's your turn.

 

[Heidi]

No, God chose Jacob because he respected and wanted the Birth Right to God's blessing, Esau didn't care and even sold it to him for a meal. God doesn't do anything without a reason. And Bubba, if you understood that when Peter is talking about election or the World that was, and is, and is yet to come, he is refering to the word Aeons or Ages, not a different world, but a different world age. Why, because in the last world age before the Katabole, (before God destroyed it with water) he knew Esau would not follow him, but Satan instead. This is why the race of Esau, isn't mentioned with Abraham's, but seperately. This is why the Idumean's were ruling over the House of Judah at the time of Christ, under Herod's line. This is why today, Russia being descendants of Esau are Anti-God, and there greatest threat are the sons of Jacob who is America and British Isles. This is why Paul was told to go to the Lost sheep of Israel!

Sorry,but God chose Jacob before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad so that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works but by him who calls as Romans 9:11 says. So you are in error.