Free will or no free will?

[jgredline]

The truth isn't decided by a vote, jgredline, nor is this a power struggle between who is right and wrong. It is a search for the truth in scripture. So we need to leave our egos out of it. Okay? It shouldn't matter whether one is right or wrong. What should matter is learing the truth of God's word. Wouldn't you agree? So let's just discuss scripture because that's where the truth can be found.

Fair enough...So did adam and eve have free will?

 

[Heidi]

Fair enough...So did adam and eve have free will?

Nope. Romans 11:32, "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he could have mercy on them all." If God had not let Satan deceive Eve, then Adam and Eve would have thought they were as omniscient as God is and never turned to him. God knows that man is arrogant enough even with sin. But without sin, he would have been even more arrogant. No sin, no mercy. Again, it's all in God's plan. ;-)

 

[Bubba]

...I agree with what you wrote here...Now one could argue that Jesus did not have free will because he was subordinate to the father in everything he did.......But I agree that Jesus did have free will and did not have to take the cup, but chose to....out of his own free will...

I think I have done a reasonable attempt to answer your questions, though obviously I have not persuaded you. I have one request for you, how do you interpret 1Corinthians 2:10-14 and Romans 3:11-18? I see in these verses, that man's heart must be changed, because his will is enslaved to Satan (2Corinthians 4:4).
You ask, "why wouldn't God change everyone desires?" and I go back to Jacob and Esau, though both were in the womb together and neither had done anything wrong, God chose Jacob over Esau, even though the Biblical account of Jacob's behavior after his birth was horrific. God decided to have Jacob as his elect and Esau became a symbol of the non-elect and a nation of non-elect. Yet, it all began as two individuals and God for no other reason then for His own good pleasure chose one over the other. Paul writes that God can do what ever He wants with the clay, He after all is the Potter, so it is not about who can say yes, or who is a better person, but of God's sovereign choice.
In respect to Jesus' freewill, my opinion is only in regards to Adam, and that he had no sin before temptation. The rest of us cannot claim that fact. The whole concept of God in man and peccability verses impeccability is quite frankly a bit over my head. So I can't be dogmatic. I will address God's desire for all to be saved later, I need to pray with the kids.
Grace Bubba

 

[jgredline]

Nope. Romans 11:32, "For God bound all men over to disobedience so he could have mercy on them all." If God had not let Satan deceive Eve, then Adam and Eve would have thought they were as omniscient as God is and never turned to him. God knows that man is arrogant enough even with sin. But without sin, he would have been even more arrogant. No sin, no mercy. Again, it's all in God's plan. ;-)

So if Adam and eve did not have free will, then we are a bunch of puppets with God pulling the strings....This would also mean that God created some folks to be tormented day and night for all eternity...This would make God evil...This would make God worse than Satan....

The fact is simply this...
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€Â

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4
Is Gods desire fullfilled? NO...

Further more...I do not see in the verse you provided that we do not have free will...

Heidi
When you heard the Gospel preached to you...Did you have the choice to accept or reject it? Did God force himself on you?

 

[jgredline]

I think I have done a reasonable attempt to answer your questions, though obviously I have not persuaded you. I have one request for you, how do you interpret 1Corinthians 2:10-14 and Romans 3:11-18? I see in these verses, that man's heart must be changed, because his will is enslaved to Satan (2Corinthians 4:4).
You ask, "why wouldn't God change everyone desires?" and I go back to Jacob and Esau, though both were in the womb together and neither had done anything wrong, God chose Jacob over Esau, even though the Biblical account of Jacob's behavior after his birth was horrific. God decided to have Jacob as his elect and Esau became a symbol of the non-elect and a nation of non-elect. Yet, it all began as two individuals and God for no other reason then for His own good pleasure chose one over the other. Paul writes that God can do what ever He wants with the clay, He after all is the Potter, so it is not about who can say yes, or who is a better person, but of God's sovereign choice.
In respect to Jesus' freewill, my opinion is only in regards to Adam, and that he had no sin before temptation. The rest of us cannot claim that fact. The whole concept of God in man and peccability verses impeccability is quite frankly a bit over my head. So I can't be dogmatic. I will address God's desire for all to be saved later, I need to pray with the kids.
Grace Bubba

In both those sections of scriptures that you provided, I whole heartally accept and believe what they say...
Lets look at in 1 cor 2 10-14 there is no way the natural man can and will understand the the things of God...It is only through the Holy Spirit that one will even understand the simplest of scripture....Here is the difference...I believe the scriptures teach and allude to the fact that Gods desires are for all to be saved...Do all get saved????NO...So how do we reconcile this? We can't...Only God can...How? Through the Holy Spirit who calls folks to himself...By the preaching of the word, by missionaries, etc...Ultimately it still is going to come down to you weather or not you will accept or Reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ....

If we look at Romans 3...It is true that no one seeks after God....I do not have the power to change anyone. I do not have the power to save anyone, .....I am merely a tool that God uses to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it is the work of the Holy Spirit who changes hearts...Now in saying this...God offers his Gift of eternal life by pure grace through faith to you and me and everyone, but we still have to choose to accept this gift...It still comes down to our choice....

 

[Heidi]

In both those sections of scriptures that you provided, I whole heartally accept and believe what they say...
Lets look at in 1 cor 2 10-14 there is no way the natural man can and will understand the the things of God...It is only through the Holy Spirit that one will even understand the simplest of scripture....Here is the difference...I believe the scriptures teach and allude to the fact that Gods desires are for all to be saved...Do all get saved????NO...So how do we reconcile this? We can't...Only God can...How? Through the Holy Spirit who calls folks to himself...By the preaching of the word, by missionaries, etc...Ultimately it still is going to come down to you weather or not you will accept or Reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ....

If we look at Romans 3...It is true that no one seeks after God....I do not have the power to change anyone. I do not have the power to save anyone, .....I am merely a tool that God uses to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it is the work of the Holy Spirit who changes hearts...Now in saying this...God offers his Gift of eternal life by pure grace through faith to you and me and everyone, but we still have to choose to accept this gift...It still comes down to our choice....

Yes we can absolutely reconcile it. Again, God wants all to be saved just like we parents want our children to be saved. But God knows that humans have to come to our own understanding of why we need God. And we can't do that without pain, nor can we do that if God forces us to believe. So he allows sin and does not tell man who he's elected and who he isn't.

The best way to explain it is by the analogy of parents and children. Parents create an environment where their children think they're making their own choices. But in reality, the parent is creating the environment for them to do so. The parents can change the child's options any time they want to. But it's paramount that the child believes that he is making his own choices when in reality he is only responding to his least stressful option that the parents gave him, which every good parent knows. ;-)

And thats exactly how God treats us. So free will is an illusion to allow us the latitude to think our decisions are coming from us. But the reality is that God is either drawing us or he isn't. ;-) So since that interpretation contradicts no scripture, and instead reconciles all scripture together, then I'll keep it. It make perfect sense to me.

So God has to allow evil to:

1) Show what life is like without God
2) Motivate us through pain because pain is the only way we learn and can turn to Him.

So since God has to allow evil, then he also has to prepare people for destruction to show what happens to those who disobey Him. The whole key then is that man doesn't know if he is called. He only responds out of the desires of his heart.

But God also is a just God so there have to be consequences & punishment for sin. So the best plan is to allow us to think we're making our own choices and open salvation to anyone who wants it. I had no idea that God was drawing me before I was born again. But I was wrong. All I knew was that I wanted to know God. But little did I know that it was God who was drawing me the whole time. So the bottom line is; anyone who wants heaven can have it and those who don't want it won't have it. It's a very equitable system and the only one that works. ;-)

 

[jgredline]

So if Adam and eve did not have free will, then we are a bunch of puppets with God pulling the strings....This would also mean that God created some folks to be tormented day and night for all eternity...This would make God evil...This would make God worse than Satan....

The fact is simply this...
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€Â

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4
Is Gods desire fullfilled? NO...

Further more...I do not see in the verse you provided that we do not have free will...

Heidi
When you heard the Gospel preached to you...Did you have the choice to accept or reject it? Did God force himself on you?

Heidi
Can you address this please. Thanks jg

 

[Heidi]

So if Adam and eve did not have free will, then we are a bunch of puppets with God pulling the strings....This would also mean that God created some folks to be tormented day and night for all eternity...This would make God evil...This would make God worse than Satan....

The fact is simply this...
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€Â

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4
Is Gods desire fullfilled? NO...

Further more...I do not see in the verse you provided that we do not have free will...

Heidi
When you heard the Gospel preached to you...Did you have the choice to accept or reject it? Did God force himself on you?

No. I could no more believe scripture than I could believe that men from Mars invaded unless I saw them. I wanted desperately to believe scripture, but could not until I received the holy Spirit. Then within minutes, the words in the bible were as clear as a bell to me. So I absolutely understand personally what paul means when he says that the man without the Spirit cannot understand the things that come from God.

So what's sad is that so many people don't know how much the Holy Spirit has done for them. They think it's their own human understanding of the bible when in reality, it's understanding that is coming from the Holy Spirit as the bible says; "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness in God's sight." So rely not on human understanding but spiritual understanding that only comes from the Holy Spirit, as Paul tells us.

God can't be evil. Only Satan is evil. So when God wants to teach humanity lessons, he sends Satan like he did to Job, Judas, Saul, etc.

God is in complete and total control of Satan. Read Revelations 20:1-9. Notice that an angel bound Satan for a thousand years. Then he let him loose again. So God has a reason for using Satan and decides when and why he will allow Satan to deceive the nations. ;-)

All John 3:16-18 means is that salvation is now open to anyone who wants it. And since man doesn't know if he is elected, he responds out of what his heart wants. That reconciles all scripture together.

 

[Heidi]

So the whole key to the free will issue is that only God knows who he is hardening, who he has prepared for destruction and who he has elected, but man does not. Romans 9:11 makes this very clear. So since man doesn't know what God has in mind for him, he feels free to respond out of the desires of his heart. And that again is what makes man without excuse and is the only plan that accomplishes all of God's purpose.

I have to get to bed now. We'll talk tomorrow.

 

[Bubba]

So if Adam and eve did not have free will, then we are a bunch of puppets with God pulling the strings....This would also mean that God created some folks to be tormented day and night for all eternity...This would make God evil...This would make God worse than Satan....

The fact is simply this...
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€Â

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4
Is Gods desire fullfilled? NO...

Jgredine,
“The Lord is …not willing that any should perish†2 Peter 3:9. Whom is the letter address to? Peter gives us the answer, “Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ†(2 Peter 1:1). He is writing to believers whom faith rests on the righteousness of God. What is the context of 2 Peter 3:9? The answer is “The Lord is not slack concerning His promises as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us…†Does He mean everyone, or only “to them that have obtained like “precious faith with us…†Why is the Lord longsuffering regarding His promised coming? The reason is obvious, He is “not willing that any of (US) should perish, but that all of (US) should come to repentance†2 Peter 3:4.
In John 3:16, does world always-mean every last person on earth? In John 12:19, “Behold the world is gone after Him!†Did every human on earth go after Jesus? No., I am sure there were babies, moms, sick people, older people, etc who did not follow after Jesus. “World†for a Calvinist, means men out of every tribe and nation, but not all men out of every tribe and nation. Kind of like the Olympics, the whole world is represented every 4 years, but not every person on earth is at the Olympics. In John 3:16, who is it that Christ died for?
1. Who is it that will not perish but have everlasting life?
2. Who is it that will believe, according to Scripture?
3. Who, then, is included in the word “world�

I think most people would agree, “Whosoever believeth in Himâ€Â. Jgredine would say everyone of his own freewill will, who trust in Jesus. Bubba says, ‘those whom the Father chose in Christ, of His own freewill will trust in Jesus. The interesting thing is that both groups acknowledge that the word ¢â‚¬Å“world†is those who believe in Christ and whom Jesus died for, but not all people, since not all will trust in Jesus.
Bubba

 

[dancing queen]

Sorry I have not followed this thread very well. But I have seen the verse

"For many are invited but few are chosen"

used as evidence of a lack of free will.

Surely this verse proves the oposite. An invite surely implies a choice. You are invited to Heaven – do you choose to accept? So surely this verse says –some Christians have been chosen, elected, whatever you want to call it, but many Christians simply accepted their invite. Doesn't this fit with the parable of the banquet. Invites were sent out, people didn't come, so invites were sent out to the poor.

 

[Bubba]

Sorry I have not followed this thread very well. But I have seen the verse

"For many are invited but few are chosen"

used as evidence of a lack of free will.

Surely this verse proves the oposite. An invite surely implies a choice. You are invited to Heaven – do you choose to accept? So surely this verse says –some Christians have been chosen, elected, whatever you want to call it, but many Christians simply accepted their invite. Doesn't this fit with the parable of the banquet. Invites were sent out, people didn't come, so invites were sent out to the poor.

Dancing Queen,
The Gospel goes out to all people, that is the "invitation" but only those who have ears to hear will come to Christ. As believers, we do not know who it is that will hear the Gospel and believe, but we do know that God in every age has people who will respond. People He chose before the foundation of the earth. So we preach and this is why many a great missionary believed and believes in the sovereignty of God still give the "invitation".
Bubba

 

[Guest]

Dancing Queen,
The Gospel goes out to all people, that is the "invitation" but only those who have ears to hear will come to Christ. As believers, we do not know who it is that will hear the Gospel and believe, but we do know that God in every age has people who will respond. People He chose before the foundation of the earth. So we preach and this is why many a great missionary believed and believes in the sovereignty of God still give the "invitation".
Bubba

Bubba - noone here is doubting the sovereignty of God.

However, taking your explaniation - it still doesn't answer the question why the invitation needs to be given.

If God has already chosen who the 'elect' are - invitation or not - they are already elected and will go to heaven. Under your explanation, God is merely giving the allusion of humanity being able to make a decision to believe or not believe in Him.

I do not believe in a God that operates under the guise of allusion. Rather, I believe in a God who is able to be Soverign AND allow for human responsibility.

Yes - some of the greatest missionaries and evangelist believed in the sovereignty of God. But that does not necessarily make them a Calvinist.

After Peter's first sermon, the audience was 'pierced to the heart' and asked Peter - "what shall we do?".

What was Peter's response - "Repent". Did some reject, yes - that is spoken in verse 41 "So then, those who had received." - the implication is that there were those there that did not receive.

However, the choice was theirs to receive or not receive. God did and does everything necessary for someone to believe: He provided the means of Salvation (on the Cross), He provides the understanding of the need and the ability to believe (The ministry of the Holy Spirit) - it is then our responsibility (not credit) to believe or not believe.

What a magnificant God that operates sovereignly and respects our responsibility.

 

[Heidi]

So if Adam and eve did not have free will, then we are a bunch of puppets with God pulling the strings....This would also mean that God created some folks to be tormented day and night for all eternity...This would make God evil...This would make God worse than Satan....

The fact is simply this...
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned;

but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€Â

So Clearly here we read that God Loved the world...That means everyone...
Is everyone saved? NO......
Is it Gods desire that all men be saved? YES...1 TIM 2:3-4
Is Gods desire fullfilled? NO...

Further more...I do not see in the verse you provided that we do not have free will...

Heidi
When you heard the Gospel preached to you...Did you have the choice to accept or reject it? Did God force himself on you?

Actually being a puppet is complete and total surrender to God. There is no resistance and no rebellion. just: "I am yours." Funny how most people don't want to do that. :

Absolutely he who believes in Christ is saved. And since no one knows who the elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it. But the bible is crystal clear that there are those who are chosen and those who are not. That's scriptural, jgredline. :

 

[dancing queen]

Heidi,

I believe you contradict yourself which makes it hard for me to appreciate what you are saying.

You say:
And since no one knows who the elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it.

but then:

But the bible is crystal clear that there are those who are chosen and those who are not.

Your first comment implies anyone can choose to be saved, the latter and your other comments implies you believe that God chooses both who is and who isn't saved, no ifs but or maybes. I dont see how you can have it both ways. Are you implying with your first comment God makes people think they can choose but they can't - I don't think thats the God I know.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Again, The chosen are God's people, the Jews. If a gentle choses to not accept Christ, or for that matter a Jew, he sends himself to hell by making a choice. Remember we are adopted by God when we chose Christ as our Lord and Savier.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Bubba]

Bubba - noone here is doubting the sovereignty of God.

However, taking your explaniation - it still doesn't answer the question why the invitation needs to be given.

If God has already chosen who the 'elect' are - invitation or not - they are already elected and will go to heaven. Under your explanation, God is merely giving the allusion of humanity being able to make a decision to believe or not believe in Him.

I do not believe in a God that operates under the guise of allusion. Rather, I believe in a God who is able to be Soverign AND allow for human responsibility.

As I wrote earlier: I go back to Jacob and Esau, though both were in the womb together and neither had done anything wrong, God chose Jacob over Esau, even though the Biblical account of Jacob's behavior after his birth was horrific. God decided to have Jacob as his elect and Esau became a symbol of the non-elect and a nation of non-elect. Yet, it all began as two individuals and God for no other reason then for His own good pleasure chose one over the other. Paul writes that God can do what ever He wants with the clay, He after all is the Potter, so it is not about who can say yes, or who is a better person, but of God's sovereign choice.
So why preach the Gospel? Because He wants us to, and those who will believe are the elect. It is God's way of doing things, even if we do not see the sense of it.
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Heidi,

I believe you contradict yourself which makes it hard for me to appreciate what you are saying.

You say:
And since no one knows who the elect are, then salvation is open to anyone who wants it.

but then:

But the bible is crystal clear that there are those who are chosen and those who are not.

Your first comment implies anyone can choose to be saved, the latter and your other comments implies you believe that God chooses both who is and who isn't saved, no ifs but or maybes. I dont see how you can have it both ways. Are you implying with your first comment God makes people think they can choose but they can't - I don't think thats the God I know.

Again, Dancing, since no one knows whether or not God is drawing them, then they respond to the deisre of their hearts. If they want heaven, they can have it. If tey don't want heaven they won't have it. So salvation is absolutely open to anyone who wants it.

Yes, just like a child thinks he's making his own decisions when in reality, the parent makes it difficult or impossible fo the child to get his way, And that's how God uses pain and sin in our lives. Jacob didn't "choose" God until he wrestled with God and God broke his hip. There isn't much of a decision in that scenario. : So as Jesus tells us, "He who falls on the capstone will be broken in pieces. But he upon whom it falls will be crushed."

So since ther is so much scripture telling us about how God is doing the work, not humans, then this is the only interpretation that reconciles all scripture together.

 

[Guest]

As I wrote earlier: I go back to Jacob and Esau, though both were in the womb together and neither had done anything wrong, God chose Jacob over Esau, even though the Biblical account of Jacob's behavior after his birth was horrific. God decided to have Jacob as his elect and Esau became a symbol of the non-elect and a nation of non-elect. Yet, it all began as two individuals and God for no other reason then for His own good pleasure chose one over the other. Paul writes that God can do what ever He wants with the clay, He after all is the Potter, so it is not about who can say yes, or who is a better person, but of God's sovereign choice.
So why preach the Gospel? Because He wants us to, and those who will believe are the elect. It is God's way of doing things, even if we do not see the sense of it.
Bubba

There is a great promise found in Isaiah 55

"Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.

2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.

3 Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander of the peoples.

5 Surely you will summon nations you know not,
and nations that do not know you will hasten to you,
because of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor."

6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.

13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed."

Please note the highlighted parts - I believe they speak for themselves.

 

[jgredline]

I need to go to work now as I have bills that I need to pay, but I will be back to address the post that are directed to me...For now I will say this.....

Why was Moses not allowed to enter the promised land?...It was not because he smote the rock, It was because he misrepresented Gods nature...by making God out to be an ogre....

Gods nature is simple....
He is ''grace''
He is ''merciful''
He is ''love''

By suggesting that God creates people to go to hell and be in torment for all eternity with out a choice in the matter is a contradiction of his nature....

BBL...