Free will or no free will?

[Bubba]

Sorry,but God chose Jacob before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad so that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works but by him who calls as Romans 9:11 says. So you are in error.

Doppleganger is getting a double measure I quoted the same thing. Blessings, Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Doppleganger is getting a double measure I quoted the same thing. Blessings, Bubba

They seem to need more than a double measure. So now it's their turn to explain the verses that we've already explained. They seem to skip those. ;-)

 

[jgredline]

Heidi
I will address your verses tomarrow. I am calling it an early night...

Atleast bubba is consistent but you have contradicted yourself so much...

 

[Heidi]

Heidi
I will address your verses tomarrow. I am calling it an early night...

Atleast bubba is consistent but you have contradicted yourself so much...

I have just quoted scripture that you seem to think contradicts other scripture when it doesn't. So your interpretation is incorrect since you seem to think that Romans 8:20 contradicts Romans 7:25 when it doesn't at all. So it's not me who's contradicting scripture, it's you. And playing one person against another is making it personal and cometitive, a game which I have no desire to play.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - you are the one who has said that God elects some people to heaven and some people to hell. That this election is not based on human choice, but that God decided in eternity past who will be saved and who will not.

Now you are saying that God grants people their wish! And that these people don't know if God is drawing them or not! But why would God "draw"" people that He has already chosen will go to hell? So, how can God give them THEIR wish?

Again - do you have a verse or passage that teaches that "God cannot allow all to be saved?"

It is you who is not lsitening to me at all. God elects. That is biblical. But man doesn't know who the elect are so he can only respond from his heart. Once again, he doesn't know if he is being drawn by God so he can only respond out of his heart. I repeat, man doesn't know if he is being drawn by God so he can only respond out of his heart. And the hearts of atheists don't want God. So God is giving them their wish.

God doesn't draw people who he has chosen to go to hell. He only draws those who he chooses to go to heaven. He gives the desire for heaven only to those he is drawing. That's how he draws people. Do you have any beliefs about scripture? All you seem to do is ask questions. For once, I'd like to hear you address Romans 9:11-25, 8:20, 8:8-9, without contradicting yourself.

Of course God can allow all to be saved. The point is that he doesn't. So you need to aaddress that issue also. :roll:

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Ok, I miss understood a little. like I said in my other post I just finished my CIV3 scenario, and I won't be on that much for awhile while I advertize my MOD. Back to the question. Did I mention works? I even mentioned election. and the World age before! Anyways, whatever, I'm dropping it.

 

[Guest]

It is you who is not lsitening to me at all. God elects. That is biblical. But man doesn't know who the elect are so he can only respond from his heart. Once again, he doesn't know if he is being drawn by God so he can only respond out of his heart. I repeat, man doesn't know if he is being drawn by God so he can only respond out of his heart. And the hearts of atheists don't want God. So God is giving them their wish.

God doesn't draw people who he has chosen to go to hell. He only draws those who he chooses to go to heaven. He gives the desire for heaven only to those he is drawing. That's how he draws people. Do you have any beliefs about scripture? All you seem to do is ask questions. For once, I'd like to hear you address Romans 9:11-25, 8:20, 8:8-9, without contradicting yourself.

Of course God can allow all to be saved. The point is that he doesn't. So you need to aaddress that issue also. :roll:

You say that man can only respond from his heart because man doesn't known if he is being drawn or not. So, how do you know you were being drawn? You just said that man doesn't know if they are being drawn or not!

You say that "God gives the desire for heaven only to those he is drawing" - but you earlier that "Man doesn't know if he is being drawn or not"!

You also say that the atheist doesn't want God - so that God gives them the wish of their heart. Are you saying that God doesn't draw atheists? It sounds like here the atheist is making the decision! Since they don't want God that God gives them their wish! So, if someone WANTS God, does God give them their wish?!?

I have not addressed the verses you supplied because you intrepetation from post to post contradicts yourself - so I really do not know what it is that you believe. My suspicion is that you have a few proof texts that you use for your arguements - and havent been questioned on them before.

 

[dancing queen]

What about the atheists who do want God?

 

[jgredline]

Jgredine,
What God decrees and what He desires can have distinctions, yes, He desires the salvation of all men, but His high decree is that only those who are elect are actually saved:

The absolute sovereignty to God in all things is perfectly consistent with God's Word which declares that,
• We have been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11)
• God declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure (Is.46:10)
• All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast Thou done?' (Dan.4:35)
• Our God is in the heavens. He does whatever He pleases (Ps.115:3)

Even though His decrees are absolute, His desires can be distinguished from His decrees. Here is an example from Brian Anderson:
“We can distinguish between God's decree and desire if we consider the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Peter could declare, "This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death" (Acts 2:23). The crucifixion of Christ was according to God's sovereign decree. Yet, the men who crucified Christ are called "godless" men. We know that God does not desire that men commit sin. Instead, His Word reveals that He is pleased with holiness and obedience, whereas sin always offends and grieves Him wherever it is found. Thus, in the crucifixion of Christ we have an example of something God decreed that He does not necessarily desire, or take pleasure in.â€Â


In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, "As I live! I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?" Again." This verse definitely is an example of God’s desire. Yet, His high decree can be found in Ezekiel 36:22-29:

21But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came.
22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.
25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses…â€Â


The conclusion is that God does desire all men to be saved, but only those He makes alive spiritually actually are (high decree).
Bubba

Ok, now we are getting someplace...So we have established that God does desire all me to be saved....

The next question that we now need to discuss, is this....
If it is Gods desire (θέλω and this same word means ''will'') that all men be saved and yet the scriptures are clear that not all men are saved, then how do we reconcile this with out contradicting Gods word, his very own will?.....

There is only one way...By ''mans choice''...So the next question is this...
The bible clearly teaches that no one seeks after God, not a one...There is none that is righteous no not one...The bible does teach total depravity....I Have never denied this and have agreed with this...But it does not end there...It is indeed the Job of the Holy Spirit to draw ''all'' (remember, this is Gods will/desire) people to himself...So how is this accomplished...For many folks this comes through different ways...To some through hearing of the word, to others Gods creation (Romans 2), still to others, a Damascus experience...So the Holy Spirit does the preaching...If it is the Holy Spirit who preaches, then there is no longer total depravity...So God will reveal himself to ''all'' folks, but the choice is up to individual to choose God or reject God...This is the only way that scripture does not contradict each other.....Those who accept Christ are the elect....

Well, what about those whom he predestined?...Is usually the next question....

The answer again is simple...God is not bound by time..As far as God is concerned, the future has already happened...If it happened, then you can't change what has happened....God in his foreknowledge knew who would ''choose'' him...Those are the elect, but it was still and was mans choice to choose or reject Jesus....

If one has a choice, then it is free will.....
If God forced his Grace, mercy, and Love, then it is NOT grace, mercy and Love...

This is no way takes away from Gods sovereignty, but affirms it....

 

[mondar]

Ok, now we are getting someplace...So we have established that God does desire all me to be saved....

The next question that we now need to discuss, is this....
If it is Gods desire (θέλω and this same word means ''will'') that all men be saved and yet the scriptures are clear that not all men are saved, then how do we reconcile this with out contradicting Gods word, his very own will?.....

There is only one way...By ''mans choice''.......

Actually there are other possibilities, or probabilities.

So the next question is this...
The bible clearly teaches that no one seeks after God, not a one...There is none that is righteous no not one...The bible does teach total depravity....I Have never denied this and have agreed with this...But it does not end there...It is indeed the Job of the Holy Spirit to draw ''all'' (remember, this is Gods will/desire) people to himself...So how is this accomplished...For many folks this comes through different ways...To some through hearing of the word, to others Gods creation (Romans 2), still to others, a Damascus experience...So the Holy Spirit does the preaching...If it is the Holy Spirit who preaches, then there is no longer total depravity...So God will reveal himself to ''all'' folks, but the choice is up to individual to choose God or reject God...This is the only way that scripture does not contradict each other.....Those who accept Christ are the elect....

Well, what about those whom he predestined?...Is usually the next question....

The answer again is simple...God is not bound by time..As far as God is concerned, the future has already happened...If it happened, then you can't change what has happened....God in his foreknowledge knew who would ''choose'' him...Those are the elect, but it was still and was mans choice to choose or reject Jesus....

If one has a choice, then it is free will.........

Are you saying that if a person has "choice" that it must be a free will choice? "Choice" is agreed upon by both "free willers" and non free willers. "Choice" is not the question, but who chose first. If God chose first, then human will is dependant upon Gods will. All glory for salvation goes to God. If man chose first, and God was merely a helper for all men equally to make that choice, then we have the arminian or pelagian concept of free will.

If God forced his Grace, mercy, and Love, then it is NOT grace, mercy and Love...

This is no way takes away from Gods sovereignty, but affirms it....

Can you point to anyone that believes "God forced his Grace, mercy, and Love?" Or is this a straw man argument?

 

[jgredline]

Can you point to anyone that believes "God forced his Grace, mercy, and Love?" Or is this a straw man argument?

Hello Mondar.
Welcome to the boards...I would suggest you go back and read all the posts in this thread...All 8 or 9 pages so that you will grasp the context of what is being discussed...If you did go back and read you will see we have a hyper Calvinist who believes that, along with puppet master theology...

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi, they are correct; you are really bouncing all over the place.

First, I question whether of not you really considered your doctrine by following God's progressive revelations from cover to cover. Most of what I'm seeing is derived from Paul's writings. Um, the Universalist does the very same thing. Are they correct also?

Secondly, you seemed to not be able to distinguish between God's elect from national Israel and those who have been called out post-Pentecost, by way of hearing and believing the Good News. You seem to lump them together. Are you into Replacement Theology also?

Golfjack got it right when he said:

Again, The chosen are God's people, the Jews. If a gentle choses to not accept Christ, or for that matter a Jew, he sends himself to hell by making a choice. Remember we are adopted by God when we chose Christ as our Lord and Savior.

May God bless, Golfjack

A perfect case of contradiction:

So since God has to allow evil, then he also has to prepare people for destruction to show what happens to those who disobey Him. The whole key then is that man doesn't know if he is called. He only responds out of the desires of his heart.

But God also is a just God so there have to be consequences & punishment for sin. So the best plan is to allow us to think we're making our own choices and open salvation to anyone who wants it. I had no idea that God was drawing me before I was born again. But I was wrong. All I knew was that I wanted to know God. But little did I know that it was God who was drawing me the whole time. So the bottom line is; anyone who wants heaven can have it and those who don't want it won't have it. It's a very equitable system and the only one that works.

Heidi,

Now I will admit that God had His "hands" all over my salvation, but you can never convince me of this:

he also has to prepare people for destruction to show what happens to those who disobey Him.

Can you even see the total lack of reason and logic in your statement? You just made Him an Author of Confusion, because that would confound just about anyone. They can't be held responsible, if He created them to disobey. This is totally against His nature.

The best way to explain it is by the analogy of parents and children. Parents create an environment where their children think they're making their own choices. But in reality, the parent is creating the environment for them to do so. The parents can change the child's options any time they want to. But it's paramount that the child believes that he is making his own choices when in reality he is only responding to his least stressful option that the parents gave him, which every good parent knows. Heidi

Either you are not a parent or have never run across a child that is determined to get their way.

My point is you are parroting, which in of itself is ok. There is nothing wrong with repeating the doctrinal beliefs of, say, Calvin. Where you falter is when you interject your "opinions" along with the doctrine. It is then that you fall into this self-contradicting pattern.

Please take that as constructive criticism.

Peace.

 

[Vic C.]

So if Adam and eve did not have free will, then we are a bunch of puppets with God pulling the strings....This would also mean that God created some folks to be tormented day and night for all eternity...This would make God evil...This would make God worse than Satan....

By suggesting that God creates people to go to hell and be in torment for all eternity with out a choice in the matter is a contradiction of his nature....

I agree Javs. I don't understand how anyone would think this is God's way of bringing glory upon Himself.

I do not believe in a God that operates under the guise of allusion. Rather, I believe in a God who is able to be Sovereign AND allow for human responsibility. ...

...What a magnificent God that operates sovereignly and respects our responsibility.

Amen, Alone. That would REALLY bring Glory to Himself. Imagine that, a God who loves His creation SO much that He would give them the choice to either hear and believe, or act upon what was written in their heart (and I think the Bible does teach that all will have His laws written upon their hearts, just as all are given some faith. It's a matter of what they do with what is written on their hearts and to whom or what they place that faith)

Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

 

[mondar]

Hello Mondar.
Welcome to the boards...I would suggest you go back and read all the posts in this thread...All 8 or 9 pages so that you will grasp the context of what is being discussed...If you did go back and read you will see we have a hyper Calvinist who believes that, along with puppet master theology...

I read all 9 pages and believe I grasp very well what was posted. Of course I am not saying you need to restrict yourself to this board only. Can you show me a statement on this board or anywhere else where either a classic Calvinist or Hyper-Calvinist anywhere that denies that man has a "will?"

 

[jgredline]

I read all 9 pages and believe I grasp very well what was posted. Of course I am not saying you need to restrict yourself to this board only. Can you show me a statement on this board or anywhere else where either a classic Calvinist or Hyper-Calvinist anywhere that denies that man has a "will?"

a ''will'' or ''free will''???

 

[mondar]

a ''will'' or ''free will''???

Certainly I can see Heidi, and Bubba are saying that man has no free will choice of Christ. What you seem to be saying is that they are claiming that man cannot make any choice. I do not see them denying that man can choose, but merely that the choice of the natural man is not free from mans rebellious sin nature. I see them as saying the natural man does choose, he chooses rebellion because he has a rebellious sinful nature.

***Note to Heidi and Bubba----> I do not know you, and if I am misreading you in any way feel free to correct me.

Now I see you (please also correct me if I am wrong) as saying that mans rebellion and sin nature does not affect his ability to choose Christ. Is this a fair reading of each side so far?

Also, if you are accusing Heidi or Bubba of being a hyper-calvinist, I do not see it. I have often seen people with Pelagian, or Arminian interpretations use the terms "hyper-Calvinist" or "extreme Calvinist" as ad-hominims. I have not read all the threads on this board. There might be hyper-calvinists on the board somewhere, but I have read through the comments on this thread and saw nothing to make me think either Heidi or Bubba took a Hyper-Calvinist position. This seems like the great Calvinist scare again.

***Note to Heidi and Bubba----> Again, if you take a hyper-calvinist position, please correct me.

 

[jgredline]

Certainly I can see Heidi, and Bubba are saying that man has no free will choice of Christ. What you seem to be saying is that they are claiming that man cannot make any choice. I do not see them denying that man can choose, but merely that the choice of the natural man is not free from mans rebellious sin nature. I see them as saying the natural man does choose, he chooses rebellion because he has a rebellious sinful nature.

***Note to Heidi and Bubba----> I do not know you, and if I am misreading you in any way feel free to correct me.

I agree that Heidi and bubba can speak for themselves. Having been discussing this with them, I can tell you that you are wrong...Further more, if you go back and read...I asked the question...Free choice or free will....Nobody but one answered the question and he is not even a part of this discussion....

Now I see you (please also correct me if I am wrong) as saying that mans rebellion and sin nature does not affect his ability to choose Christ. Is this a fair reading of each side so far?

...NO...Again if you go back and read my posts, you will see that I hold to total depravity....I am not going to re-write what I already wrote, so if you want to know, go back and read....

Also, if you are accusing Heidi or Bubba of being a hyper-calvinist, I do not see it. I have often seen people with Pelagian, or Arminian interpretations use the terms "hyper-Calvinist" or "extreme Calvinist" as ad-hominims. I have not read all the threads on this board. There might be hyper-calvinists on the board somewhere, but I have read through the comments on this thread and saw nothing to make me think either Heidi or Bubba took a Hyper-Calvinist position. This seems like the great Calvinist scare again.

***Note to Heidi and Bubba----> Again, if you take a hyper-Calvinist position, please correct me.

....Again you are making false allegations...Heidi has already said that she is OK with puppet master theology and has not denied being a hyper Calvinist...Go back and read her post..and you will see she fits that catagory....Bubba has said that he holds to and is a 5 point Calvinist...In case you don't know, they are not the same thing...There views are not even the same...''really''....
As far as Ad Homien, if you go back and read, I have done no such thing...I believe in attacking the doctrine not the presenter.(unless the person is a false teacher)..If you read even more closely you will find one of the other posters saying that ''I or others must not be saved''.....

Now rather the jump in the middle of a conversation, why not ask a question and lets start a new conversation...

 

[Bubba]

Ok, now we are getting someplace...So we have established that God does desire all me to be saved....

The next question that we now need to discuss, is this....
If it is Gods desire (θέλω and this same word means ''will'') that all men be saved and yet the scriptures are clear that not all men are saved, then how do we reconcile this with out contradicting Gods word, his very own will?.....

There is only one way...By ''mans choice''...So the next question is this...
The bible clearly teaches that no one seeks after God, not a one...There is none that is righteous no not one...The bible does teach total depravity....I Have never denied this and have agreed with this...But it does not end there...It is indeed the Job of the Holy Spirit to draw ''all'' (remember, this is Gods will/desire) people to himself...So how is this accomplished...For many folks this comes through different ways...To some through hearing of the word, to others Gods creation (Romans 2), still to others, a Damascus experience...So the Holy Spirit does the preaching...If it is the Holy Spirit who preaches, then there is no longer total depravity...So God will reveal himself to ''all'' folks, but the choice is up to individual to choose God or reject God...This is the only way that scripture does not contradict each other.....Those who accept Christ are the elect....

Well, what about those whom he predestined?...Is usually the next question....

The answer again is simple...God is not bound by time..As far as God is concerned, the future has already happened...If it happened, then you can't change what has happened....God in his foreknowledge knew who would ''choose'' him...Those are the elect, but it was still and was mans choice to choose or reject Jesus....

If one has a choice, then it is free will.....
If God forced his Grace, mercy, and Love, then it is NOT grace, mercy and Love...

This is no way takes away from Gods sovereignty, but affirms it....

Javier,
I notice much has transpired since my last visit. Heidi and I probably agree more then disagree on God’s sovereignty in regards to the elect and the reprobate. Though she may not express herself with sensitivity at times, she is nonetheless trying to stay true to Scripture as she sees it. I think we all should be careful that we do not “pile up†on anyone. Agree or disagree, but we should always try to be civil and I think for the most part the majority of those writing here are. Unfortunately, in the past, I have let my Calvinism become a large club and I have swung it wildly.
I probably agree more with the theological position of the Supralapsarian then the Infralapsarian. In our realm verses like John 3:16, 1Timothy 2:3-4, etc, do show God in an anthropomorphic expression and I believe it is a genuine desire of God to love and want the best for mankind. Then Heidi and I also know that there are verses of Scripture that shows a higher realm of God in respect to His sovereignty in salvation of the elect and damnation of the reprobate. At this point, I vacillate over to the Infralapsarian position and declare that God actively involves Himself in those lives of those who will be saved according to His will, and the rest of sinful man He passively leaves in their sin inherited from The “Fallâ€Â.
So, with all this said, I would quickly make a note in regards to your idea of foreknowledge. Since God is omniscient, He would have, in the beginning looked into the future and saw only spiritually dead individuals whose desire (will) is not to say yes to Jesus. I believe before the foundation of the earth, God decided who in the future He would make alive spiritually, that would desire to say yes to Jesus, because He actively intervenes in their behalf (Ephesians 2:1-10). Once regeneration occurs this is the individuals “willâ€Â, and it is a very genuine “willâ€Â, so complete is this new creation.

Grace, Bubba

 

[jgredline]

Bubba
Actually, I have felt that this conversation has been as civil as I have seen...Most of these get ugly..I appreciate you in that you have been consistent in your views...Heidi, has as been pointed out by many posters contradicted herself many times.....Like I stated earlier, this debate has been going on for centuries and certainly we are not going to solve it here...My theology for the most part is reformed...I can debate both sides of the spectrum into a corner, but ultimately, I believe that God indeed made man with a free will...This way, God gets ultimate Glory and fits well with his true nature...To say man has no free will that he can't choose or reject messiah, is also saying that God created some folks for the sole purpose of sending them to hell to be tormented day and night forever and ever....This is against Gods nature that is Grace, love and mercy......Anyway, I am starting to repeat myself, so I think I am done with this thread.....

Blessings to you bubba...
Javier

 

[Bubba]

Bubba
Actually, I have felt that this conversation has been as civil as I have seen...Most of these get ugly..I appreciate you in that you have been consistent in your views...Heidi, has as been pointed out by many posters contradicted herself many times.....Like I stated earlier, this debate has been going on for centuries and certainly we are not going to solve it here...My theology for the most part is reformed...I can debate both sides of the spectrum into a corner, but ultimately, I believe that God indeed made man with a free will...This way, God gets ultimate Glory and fits well with his true nature...To say man has no free will that he can't choose or reject messiah, is also saying that God created some folks for the sole purpose of sending them to hell to be tormented day and night forever and ever....This is against Gods nature that is Grace, love and mercy......Anyway, I am starting to repeat myself, so I think I am done with this thread.....

Blessings to you bubba...
Javier

Javier,
I do not want to "beat a dead horse", but I do not believe anyone has really adequately explained Ephesians 2:1-10, if they really do believe that God looked into the future to determine who would say yes to Jesus.
This is where some Calvinist including myself gravitate over to Supralapsarian logic. If God really is omniscient, which both of us believe, then He really did select a people before the foundation of the earth to be written in the "book of life" (Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4):and He really did determine who would not be written in this "book of life" (Revelations 13:8 and 17:8). The "Fall" (evil) then was included in this before the earth scenario has a backdrop to allow the elect a understanding of that which is good. I think this is what Heidi was trying to address, before she got "blown out of the water" (if you are still reading these threads and I am wrong, send me a PM). Before you give up on this topic and if you so desire, would you explain "being dead in your sins", "gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature","being objects of God's wrath" and "made us alive with Christ".

Grace, Bubba