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Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

 
n2thelight said:
So what happens when there are no men to lead

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First off, you make a huge mistake by suggesting all of these are examples of women in authority over men. Secondly, like everything else, in situations where the ideal is not being fulfilled, we have to rely on second best. The problem is thinking just because a woman in authority is a back up plan, that makes it so women can always in be in authority over men in the church. Women and children in charge of the people of God is a curse as the result of wickedness.

Isaiah 3:11-12
11Woe to the wicked; disaster is upon them!
For they will be repaid with what their hands have done.
12Youths oppress My people,
and women rule over them.
O My people, your guides mislead you;
they turn you from your paths.
 
Does a man have the right to tell the woman no if it is something she wants to do?

The way I figured it, the woman rules the house in all manner. She spends the most time there so she can decorate it like she wants to. It's her house. Her Kingdom so to speak. (actually I think that is a scripture also but I couldn't find it!)

But it's not without it's limitations also. Man does have the role of leader but it's like they say, happy wife happy life. SO let's say the wife only rules during peace time. When a crises arises, many time the wife will be quick to hand the reins back to the husband and say, take care of this. The man has to be ready to say, yes dear. The man must respond to a danger, providing for them food and shelter, transportation, all of that.

But during peace time, those wives will ne like, give me those reins! And, she can have them. I love her and she is not incompetant, in fact most things she touches turns to gold! And I love her so it's sure honey. I know that's what makes her happy so she could live her life with me and do what is in her heart. How could I say no to this woman I love if she came to me seriously and said, I want to be a Pastor? I would simply praise God for it and support her in prayer. I would say, go for it. (I am not in a postion to "make her a Pastor" so this is obviously God doing something through her, so, I will not discourage it.

You guys arguing about this are being short sighted. You can't do anything almost. It's nothng you do to her to make her a Pastor anyway. God installs and removes Pastors in His churches. Man is the spiritual leader so if his wife asks to be a Pastor, he is to take this to the Lord and do the Lord's will in the matter. Man can not assert his own will upon his wife in spiritual matters. Only as the Spirit allows and leads. So in that case maybe you just let her have her a home based bible study if she wants with her friends?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
First off, you make a huge mistake by suggesting all of these are examples of women in authority over men. Secondly, like everything else, in situations where the ideal is not being fulfilled, we have to rely on second best. The problem is thinking just because a woman in authority is a back up plan, that makes it so women can always in be in authority over men in the church. Women and children in charge of the people of God is a curse as the result of wickedness.

Isaiah 3:11-12
11Woe to the wicked; disaster is upon them!
For they will be repaid with what their hands have done.
12Youths oppress My people,
and women rule over them.
O My people, your guides mislead you;
they turn you from your paths.
Click to expand...
If a man ain't right with God and the woman is ,she should not submit, period .
 
Jethro Bodine said:
First off, you make a huge mistake by suggesting all of these are examples of women in authority over men. Secondly, like everything else, in situations where the ideal is not being fulfilled, we have to rely on second best. The problem is thinking just because a woman in authority is a back up plan, that makes it so women can always in be in authority over men in the church. Women and children in charge of the people of God is a curse as the result of wickedness.

Isaiah 3:11-12
11Woe to the wicked; disaster is upon them!
For they will be repaid with what their hands have done.
12Youths oppress My people,
and women rule over them.
O My people, your guides mislead you;
they turn you from your paths.
Click to expand...
Here's a case in why one needs to study , especially v12

Isaiah3
Isaiah 3:12 "As for My People, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My People, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
It is not right to use the word "women" here, for in the Hebrew it says the "weaker people" will rule over them. It is your teachers that will cause you to error and stray for the path God's Word teaches. What kind of teacher do you have? Do you have a qualified teacher in your church? One verse wonders just won't cut it. If you do not have God's Word and understanding you simply will not have God's blessings. The good teacher understands the complete plan of God, and he knows from where all blessings flow. He has the common sense from God's Word, rather then the traditions of men.
God is now telling you not to rely on these people to get you ready; you think for yourself and use common sense. Get into His Word and prepare yourself, for it doesn't take much to out think the leaders of our nation today. It is up to you personally to chose the ways of God, over the ways of man.
 
So what some are saying is , before God places us in the womb of women He already knows what's gonna happen ? I'm asking especially of those who think we were created at conception .

Either way , what kind of since does that make ? In other words you saying He created people knowing that they will die in the lake of fire . I'm really having a hard time understanding the kind of god you all serve , dang sure ain't the God in my Bible
 
n2thelight said:
Either way , what kind of since does that make ? In other words you saying He created people knowing that they will die in the lake of fire .
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The Bible calls it 'foreknowledge'. And the Bible explains how he bore with patience those vessels he knew would just end up in the lake of fire, and how it serves a purpose in revealing God's wrath and power.
 
n2thelight said:
Either way , what kind of since does that make ? In other words you saying He created people knowing that they will die in the lake of fire . I'm really having a hard time understanding the kind of god you all serve , dang sure ain't the God in my Bible
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Romans 9:22
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The Bible calls it 'foreknowledge'. And the Bible explains how he bore with patience those vessels he knew would just end up in the lake of fire, and how it serves a purpose in revealing God's wrath and power.
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Foreknowledge is not predestination.
Have you become reformed?
 
n2thelight said:
So what some are saying is , before God places us in the womb of women He already knows what's gonna happen ? I'm asking especially of those who think we were created at conception .

Either way , what kind of since does that make ? In other words you saying He created people knowing that they will die in the lake of fire . I'm really having a hard time understanding the kind of god you all serve , dang sure ain't the God in my Bible
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Why would you think preventing those whose lives will experience hardship or pain at the end enjoy anything of life be a just and wise thing to do? If a man KNEW he was going to end up in hell and wanted to enjoy the pleasures of this life anyway, would it be right to deny him those pleasures because of the end that he freely chose?

Some parents experience the birth of a handicapped child whose life expectancy is only 10 years at best. That child will never grow up. Should the parents drown them at birth because some of the pleasures that they know will never be those that the child knows? What if parents knew their child would grow up to be a criminal. Should they drown them at birth? What about the grandchildren who grow up to be people who contribute great good to the world? Shall they be denied a life because their father was a rogue?

What you are saying the God ought to not let people live who will suffer. You pinpoint only one suffering, but there are other forms. Why is the end the only thing that matters? Not a single one of us thinks how we end our lives is the only thing that matters.

I can see why God allows all men to enjoy the pleasures of life and freedoms even though the eternal end might not go well because of that man's choice. He has done all He can to prevent this outcome. But He cannot kill the babies who will go there denying them life at all and be trust and kind. You are making him responsible for suffering in hell because He did not kill in the womb babies who end up there also denying parents and grandparents and friends the pleasure of that child. You want a world where more than half of the babies die for no perceivable reason? Is that just?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I'm not sure how you think I've somehow confused God's foreknowledge with Calvin's understanding of predestination. Foreknowledge is not predestination. I'm not a reformist.
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You keep saying that but you come very close. The Being you describe as God sounds a lot like the Calvinist one. Me thinks the man doth protest over much.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Why would you think preventing those whose lives will experience hardship or pain at the end enjoy anything of life be a just and wise thing to do?
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Stop thinking what you think is best and read what God says about it instead.

Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Stop thinking what you think is best and read what God says about it instead.

Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—
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How does that verse address my post?

And I actually don’t think what I think is best. I think what God thinks is best.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
It might be that he is fooling himself. He says he is not but then what he says matches. Hummmm
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Reformed theology says God determines ahead of time who will be a believer because that's what he's decided ahead of time. I don't subscribe to that theology. Men are free to choose for or against the gospel when God calls them.

God knows ahead of time what a person will choose, but that doesn't prevent him from creating them anyway. The Bible says it serves a useful purpose for God to create those who he knows in his foreknowledge will choose to not believe.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
How does that verse address my post?

And I actually don’t think what I think is best. I think what God thinks is best.
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That passage shows God's wisdom and purpose in creating those who He, in his foreknowledge, knows will not believe. It serves a purpose in showing his power and wrath and the riches of his glory. Just read the passage and forget your preconceived notion about it is.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Reformed theology says God determines ahead of time who will be a believer because that's what he's decided ahead of time. I don't subscribe to that theology. Men are free to choose for or against the gospel when God calls them.

God knows ahead of time what a person will choose, but that doesn't prevent him from creating them anyway. The Bible says it serves a useful purpose for God to create those who he knows in his foreknowledge will choose to not believe.
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Me thinks the man doth protest too much.

The difference between you and reformed theology is pretty narrow.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
That passage shows God's wisdom and purpose in creating those who He, in his foreknowledge, knows will not believe. It serves a purpose in showing his power and wrath and the riches of his glory. Just read the passage and forget what your preconceived notion about it is.
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I’m sure calvinists agree with you.
 
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