Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Dorothy Mae]

Jethro Bodine, you likely don’t see the similarities between your thinking and Calvinism. The difference you see as large are minor to us. The description of God is the same. You can protest but we see that you are in that camp even if at a slightly off from the middle point.

 

[GodsGrace]

It might be that he is fooling himself. He says he is not but then what he says matches. Hummmm

Jethro doesn't fool himself.
He's very intelligent and bible smart.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure how you think I've somehow confused God's foreknowledge with Calvin's understanding of predestination. Foreknowledge is not predestination. I'm not a reformist.

I just started reading through Jethro.
You ARE sounding a little calvinistic, but I just got here and I know you're not, so it is a little confusing.
Will continue to read along.
I've come to the conclusion that the reformed faith is not only incorrect, it is absolutely heretical.

Definition of heretical​

1: of or relating to adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma : characterized by heresy heretical writings
2: of, relating to, or characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards : UNORTHODOX It would be heretical to suggest changing company policy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jethro doesn't fool himself.
He's very intelligent and bible smart.

Intelligence and fooling yourself aren’t related.

 

[GodsGrace]

Intelligence and fooling yourself aren’t related.

My post stands.

 

[GodsGrace]

So we know that one of the attributes of God is that he is all-knowing and all-present,
which means that he knows everything past, present, and future.

We're told that we have also been given free will to make our own choices.

However, this would mean that nothing we choose out of our free will would come as a "surprise" to God as if he didn't know that was going to happen. He already knows then what choices we are going to make now and the future.

So this means 1 of 2 things.
Either
A) Everything is already predetermined and predestined by God and he knows all that will happen because he is not limited to time but outside of time which means seeing the past and future is simultaneous for him. There is only one universe/timeline that is going to play out and nothing else that would "surprise" God like a "twist" he didn't see coming.

or

B) God has created an infinite number of timelines/multiverses that exist BASED on every possible choice that every single human being makes in the history of this timeline. In other words, God would still know the outcome of all the infinite other possible timelines based on what choice I make today. So we still have free will to choose which timeline we are going to play out based on the choices I make today, right here, right now. God doesn't actually know which timeline I'm going to play out because it's my free will to choose BUT he does know what the outcome and entire timeline of every possible choice I make. (Follow me on this: So God already knows my entire life and timeline if I choose to disobey him and not live the life He wants for me AND he knows the entire life and timeline if I choose to obey him and follow him wholeheartedly. All the possible outcomes he already knows, but since we have free will, He is allows us to choose which timeline we are actually going to play out and that is the only part He doesn't actually know what I'll choose.

Please comment or correct me.

We're up to page 13 and you're not even around anymore.
Let me just say here for those reading along, that neither A nor B are correct.

Multiverses.
Are not necessary for God to know the outcome of a choice we make NOW....
when He already knew it THEN.

There is no time for God.
A difficult concept for us to grasp.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My post stands.

Putin is brilliant but he is fooling himself. My post stands.

 

[GodsGrace]

Putin is brilliant but he is fooling himself. My post stands.

I don't know Putin and neither do you.
I know Jethro.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know Putin and neither do you.
I know Jethro.

Why do you think knowing someone personally means being intelligent precludes fooling oneself. You’ve heard of Steven Hawkins? He was very intelligent. He did not think there was a God. Was he fooling himself despite superior intelligence? Can we know this despite having no personal relationship?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know Putin and neither do you.
I know Jethro.

What does that matter? He talks like a Calvinist. That one gets by reading what he wrote. Why does knowing him mean that’s not possible?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you think knowing someone personally means being intelligent precludes fooling oneself. You’ve heard of Steven Hawkins? He was very intelligent. He did not think there was a God. Was he fooling himself despite superior intelligence? Can we know this despite having no personal relationship?

Jethro is too intelligent to be reformed.
I mentioned him in my post.

As to anybody else,,,
anything can be.

 

[GodsGrace]

What does that matter? He talks like a Calvinist. That one gets by reading what he wrote. Why does knowing him mean that’s not possible?

I guess Jethro Bodine has to be aware of these posts about him.

I've known him many years and I know he's not calvinist.
He and I agree pretty much on everything....except maybe one little thing, which does not matter.

Romans 9 is not an easy chapter.
Include 10 and 11 in there too.

Paul goes from speaking about personal salvation to speaking about the experience the Israelites had.
I'm no expert on those 3 chapters, but they do sound calvinistic if we want to be honest.
The only reason I know they're not is because THE REST OF THE NT does not state what Romans 9 SEEMS to state unless, of course, one takes OT history into account.

I think we should stop discussing Jethro.
Except to say that he keeps a quarter in his pocket at all times.

 

[Edward]

Jethro give you gitls too much catnip? Lol. j/k.

Seriously now, this is basically how I see it.
God granted man the gift of Free Will and He has endowed man with a Conscience. Freedom of will is for our freedom to develop within the boubdries of God's Laws. Our conscience enables us to be able to distinguish good from evil. The Conscience will tell you like a perfect judge whether you are complying with God's law or in fault of God's law.

Jesus came and paid the price. He fulfilled the Law so we are not under the law anymore. Which is to say, not under the curse of the Law anymore, but we still must choose to follow the law and be good moral people. Because thats what good moral people do. Need some help?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I guess Jethro Bodine has to be aware of these posts about him.

I've known him many years and I know he's not calvinist.
He and I agree pretty much on everything....except maybe one little thing, which does not matter.

Romans 9 is not an easy chapter.
Include 10 and 11 in there too.

Paul goes from speaking about personal salvation to speaking about the experience the Israelites had.
I'm no expert on those 3 chapters, but they do sound calvinistic if we want to be honest.
The only reason I know they're not is because THE REST OF THE NT does not state what Romans 9 SEEMS to state unless, of course, one takes OT history into account.

I think we should stop discussing Jethro.
Except to say that he keeps a quarter in his pocket at all times.

ok

 

[GodsGrace]

Jethro give you gitls too much catnip? Lol. j/k.

Seriously now, this is basically how I see it.
God granted man the gift of Free Will and He has endowed man with a Conscience. Freedom of will is for our freedom to develop within the boubdries of God's Laws. Our conscience enables us to be able to distinguish good from evil. The Conscience will tell you like a perfect judge whether you are complying with God's law or in fault of God's law.

Jesus came and paid the price. He fulfilled the Law so we are not under the law anymore. Which is to say, not under the curse of the Law anymore, but we still must choose to follow the law and be good moral people. Because thats what good moral people do. Need some help?

No.
You've said it all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

wondering, I do understand Romans 9-11 and it requires reading the whole letter from Paul. It doesn’t support calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering, I do understand Romans 9-11 and it requires reading the whole letter from Paul. It doesn’t support calvinism.

Agreed.
But if you just take out, for instance, Romans 9:22-24 (or so), it does sound like Calvinist ideaology.
What about Romans 9:14...... same thing.

But it is important to realise that Paul goes from personal salvation to corporate salvation.
Some believe these 3 chapters should not have been in the middle of Romans.
It's difficult to catch the change for most and it could be misunderstood.

PS
But yes, the entire bible teaches free will, no predestination, and that we have a part in our salvation.
As I think I said on this thread....I believe calvinism to be heretical. In the true meaning of the word.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed.
But if you just take out, for instance, Romans 9:22-24 (or so), it does sound like Calvinist ideaology.
What about Romans 9:14...... same thing.

All false theology has some isolated verses that can be made to support it.

But it is important to realise that Paul goes from personal salvation to corporate salvation.
Some believe these 3 chapters should not have been in the middle of Romans.
It's difficult to catch the change for most and it could be misunderstood.

Agreed.

PS
But yes, the entire bible teaches free will, no predestination, and that we have a part in our salvation.
As I think I said on this thread....I believe calvinism to be heretical. In the true meaning of the word.

Agreed again…..well said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The difference between you and reformed theology is pretty narrow.

Then you don't understand reformed theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I’m sure calvinists agree with you.

Until they realize I don't believe God purposely determines who's going to be a believer and who won't be apart from their own say in the matter.