Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[GodsGrace]

A literal, physical example like that is useful towards showing how our free will can and does operate within the larger scope of God's free will. That's how I would use it.

I like the football game analogy I like to use.
And this is what I think you're saying.
In a football game, every single player freely chooses what way he runs, how fast, the quarterback chooses a play and it's followed to the best of the player's ability.

However God has a plan for that game,,,,
In the end the game will end as HE wishes it to.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because the rain didn't kill them the flooding did .you die in the rain it's the flood that takes you under or slides you into a Rock.



.so until they died . .God sealed the door to the ark .

Yet you imply that he wouldnt seal your fate .

There a pattern here .

Once I say I judge in that day it's too late .
The door closed .rain fall .they died .

When jesursalem is surrounded you flee .

Those that didn't all died .no chance given by the Romans to live once they refused to surrender and no Christ follower was executed or taken captive by Rome.

The words of Jesus at the cry of the bridegroom .

Be awake and have your candle lit.

It's the same thing Jethro is saying .once you reach that hardness God says ok .I know you won't so have at it.

Kindly tell me how I. Can blaspheme the Holy Ghost and be forgiven ?

Yes. I think this is what Jethro Bodine is saying.

But,,,wait.

It's said that we could be saved till our last moment...

How to reconcile??

 

[GodsGrace]

I haven't had the access granted .

Just never really looked into why . Just not something I see as bad but the reformed doing it is strange .a baby is totally depraved and they will baptize him but not offer communion when they are at 8 or 9 .or when they are able but they won't baptize again.

I will ask

You have to ask.
Try again...

 

[jasonc]

Yes. I think this is what Jethro Bodine is saying.

But,,,wait.

It's said that we could be saved till our last moment...

How to reconcile??

Some God knows won't ask and knowing fully as much as God sees is enough knows not to want God and hate him .

I know people who have said he'll.its real and I don't fear it .

 

[jasonc]

Some God knows won't ask and knowing fully as much as God sees is enough knows not to want God and hate him .

I know people who have said he'll.its real and I don't fear it .

In war I saw things this is why I buy total depravity .
A marine who watched his buddy get a an ak 47 mag unloaded into his head .he himself shot five times and played dead and refused the gospel when his 1sg prayed for him .


I can't fathom that but if he did repent that is a testimony. I don't know about him .

 

[GodsGrace]

In war I saw things this is why I buy total depravity .
A marine who watched his buddy get a an ak 47 mag unloaded into his head .he himself shot five times and played dead and refused the gospel when his 1sg prayed for him .


I can't fathom that but if he did repent that is a testimony. I don't know about him .

This is Christianity's biggest unanswered question...
Why would a loving God allow this?

But the answer is not that God predestinated everything. That would create a huge biblical conflict.

Some doctors also have trouble believing.

 

[jasonc]

This is Christianity's biggest unanswered question...
Why would a loving God allow this?

But the answer is not that God predestinated everything. That would create a huge biblical conflict.

Some doctors also have trouble believing.

It is meant for us to know that .

Only to trust that God will save us

 

[Cooper]

This is Christianity's biggest unanswered question...
Why would a loving God allow this?

But the answer is not that God predestinated everything. That would create a huge biblical conflict.

Some doctors also have trouble believing.

This is not God's doing, though, is it? This is wicked men exercising their freewill and doing evil things that are satanically inspired. Jesus taught peace on earth and gave us a mind and heart so that we can love him of our own freewill. He did not make us zombies.

Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

The above tells of God's foreknowledge and our eternal destination in glory. As regards the wicked, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

Blame the god of this world, the father of lies, for Ukraine and all the atrocities throughout the world.

Please do not blame God, but instead blame the real culprit.
.

 

[brightfame52]

Here, this will help you see it doesn't say 'to have' faith, but rather 'through', or 'by' faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - Stand Firm

But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by faith in the truth.

biblehub.com

I know what the verse says, been preaching it for decades, and you misrepresent it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know what the verse says, been preaching it for decades, and you misrepresent it.

What's to misrepresent? I just go by what it says. I posted more than one translation. It says we are chosen to be saved 'by', or 'through', faith. It does not say we are chosen to be saved 'to have' faith. It just doesn't.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know what the verse says, been preaching it for decades, and you misrepresent it.

What do you think the above states bright?
May YOU are misrepresenting what it states?
Funny how only the reformed agree with the reformed.
This is known as a heresy....
A heresy is a belief system outside of accepted doctrine.

In fact, Augustine spent 10 years as manechaen. A heretical sect.

Great example John Calvin used for his theology!

 

[brightfame52]

What's to misrepresent? I just go by what it says. I posted more than one translation. It says we are chosen to be saved 'by', or 'through', faith. It does not say we are chosen to be saved 'to have' faith. It just doesn't.

You misrepresent what the scripture says. Being chosen to Salvation culminates in the belief of the Truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

You misrepresent what the scripture says. Being chosen to Salvation culminates in the belief of the Truth.

First one must believe and THEN he is saved.
A person that does not believe in God CANNOT be saved.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

1. The above tells us that WHOEVER WOULD DRAW NEAR TO GOD
meaning that we have the ABILITY to draw near to God.

2. It tells us that the person must BELIEVE THAT GOD EXISTS.
and THEN He rewards those who seek Him.
THOSE WHO SEEK HIM.


WE MUST DRAW NEAR TO GOD
WE MUST BELIEVE HE EXISTS
HE REWARDS US WITH SALVATION

 

[GodsGrace]

They don't view it that way and I have never heard them describe it that way. That is all I am asking. Their view of God paints a very cruel Being who predetermines some people have no chance to avoid hell and, of course. it has to do with his character, but none of them will admit this.

If it is so obvious, ask Roger if man has no free will at all in anything. He is a died in the wool calvinist, ask him to tell us that man has no free will at all in anything. (I know Jethro thinks man has free will for a moment in his life when he can choose God and then the window shuts down forever.)

We both know what rogerg believes.
He's not speaking to me anymore either BTW.
I must be one heck of a gal to deal with.

I also don't believe you've understood Jethro...
But you could just ask him if he believes we have free will, in a moral sense.

According to Luke 15, the Prodigal Son, the window never shuts down.
I do believe that the longer a person hardens their heart, the more difficult it'll become to accept salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Jethro upped the description by inserting the adjective “absolute” free will and accused me of believing that. Restricted to natural law was one easy example. The parable of the seeds is a more complex one. Did the person from whom the Devil takes away the seed have free will? Do you see that’s more complex? If he had said just “you believe in free will” I could have answered, but he deceptively changed the matter. I’ve noticed this tendency in false theologies. There is an element of cagey and a desire to entrap along with a stubborn unwillingness to think more deeply about their position.

So do you, for example, also agree with him that we are just “rats in a maze?”

The earth is us.
The seed is the Word of God.
The response is of free will in all cases.
The devil takes away the word from some...but they allow this to happen.

As to the rats in a maze.
We DO have to admit that we are in the home of satan, the prince of the air.
God did deposit us in his home.
God did set up the paradigm we live in.

In this sense we can say that we are like rats in a maze.
Since we have a loving God, I would not explain it that way.
But we each have our own way of understanding God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The question is not put to me but I’ve always heard it was because of the inborn sin nature and the thought of if they die as babies/children they can be forgiven and go to heaven as a result of that ceremony.

Dorothy, the reply is a bit complicated.
If you go to that thread, I'd be happy to explain it in full.
The above is not really correct,

 

[GodsGrace]

A literal, physical example like that is useful towards showing how our free will can and does operate within the larger scope of God's free will. That's how I would use it.

OK.
But wouldn't you agree that when we speak of free will biblically, it is always with the intent of meaning
moral free will.

We have the free will to accept life or death,
We have the free will to obey the Holy Spirit or not.
etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is not God's doing, though, is it? This is wicked men exercising their freewill and doing evil things that are satanically inspired. Jesus taught peace on earth and gave us a mind and heart so that we can love him of our own freewill. He did not make us zombies.

Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

The above tells of God's foreknowledge and our eternal destination in glory. As regards the wicked, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

Blame the god of this world, the father of lies, for Ukraine and all the atrocities throughout the world.

Please do not blame God, but instead blame the real culprit.
.

The above is very true Cooper.
But it doesn't answer the entire question of why there is evil.
Evil does not mean only evil persons, the word evil encompasses anything bad that could happen.

For instance in Romans 8:19-22 we're told that even creation itself is longing to be redeemed.

When Adam fell, he subjected mankind to evil and he also subjected nature to evil.
A mild wind can turn into a hurricane.
A soft wave can turn into a tsunami.
etc.

This cannot be explained by men doing evil since man has no control over nature.
Think of it, evil is present in EVERYTHING that is on earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

You misrepresent what the scripture says. Being chosen to Salvation culminates in the belief of the Truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But wouldn't you agree that when we speak of free will biblically, it is always with the intent of meaning
moral free will.

Yes, we are speaking of free will in regard to morality and choosing the gospel in faith. We are also subject to the moral boundaries God has put us in in the same way that we are subject to the physical boundaries that God has put us in. That's why physical boundaries can help us understand the nature of our moral boundaries and how God ultimately controls them, not us.

It isn't until the call of the gospel comes that a person can make a free will decision to repent and turn from the slavery of their immoral behavior that God has turned all men over to. God doesn't open up the salvation part of the maze to us until he determines that it will be open to us. That is when we can then exercise free will in regard to turning from unrighteousness to righteousness, or remain where we're at. If we stay where we're at, God will eventually once again confine us to where we're at in sin and won't open up the opportunity for us to be saved ever again.

We have the free will to accept life or death,
We have the free will to obey the Holy Spirit or not.

Not until God calls us. Until then every person dead in their sins is held fast in slavery to their sin. They have no free will to repent and live for God in faith. God has turned all unbelievers over to the slavery of sin. That is the boundary defined for the unbeliever. Only with the gospel message and the giving of faith through the word of God to receive and believe the gospel is a person released from those boundaries and able to exercise free will in regard to righteousness.