Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

In this sense we can say that we are like rats in a maze.
Since we have a loving God, I would not explain it that way.

It's the concept of the rat maze itself, not that it's rats that are running around in it, that best illustrates the truth of man's free will operating within God's free will, thus preserving both. I find it ridiculous that Dorothy is offended that in the analogy we are the rats that run through the maze. Just ridiculous. That's not the point of the illustration. Would she feel better if I had said cute little guinea pigs, lol? Offense is the number one problem among us Christians, and frankly, I'm getting tired of it.

 

[jasonc]

It's the concept of the rat maze itself, not that it's rats that are running around in it, that best illustrates the truth of man's free will operating within God's free will, thus preserving both. I find it ridiculous that Dorothy is offended that in the analogy we are the rats that run through the maze. Just ridiculous. That's not the point of the illustration. Would she feel better if I had said cute little guinea pigs, lol? Offense is the number one problem among us Christians, and frankly, I'm getting tired of it.

Corn maze ,lol

 

[GodsGrace]

It's the concept of the rat maze itself, not that it's rats that are running around in it, that best illustrates the truth of man's free will operating within God's free will, thus preserving both. I find it ridiculous that Dorothy is offended that in the analogy we are the rats that run through the maze. Just ridiculous. That's not the point of the illustration. Would she feel better if I had said cute little guinea pigs, lol? Offense is the number one problem among us Christians, and frankly, I'm getting tired of it.

It's like we don't try to understand each other.
We just all want to be right. I don't think anyone on this forum knows God 100%.

Paul said we see through a glass darkly.
God is bigger than we all think.

I think the maze was the problem, not necessarily what was running through it.

Also, I think language is a problem. I say something, the other member understands something I didn't mean.

The reason we're here is what counts in the end.
I need to discuss with persons of like beliefs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we are speaking of free will in regard to morality and choosing the gospel in faith. We are also subject to the moral boundaries God has put us in in the same way that we are subject to the physical boundaries that God has put us in. That's why physical boundaries can help us understand the nature of our moral boundaries and how God ultimately controls them, not us.

It isn't until the call of the gospel comes that a person can make a free will decision to repent and turn from the slavery of their immoral behavior that God has turned all men over to. God doesn't open up the salvation part of the maze to us until he determines that it will be open to us. That is when we can then exercise free will in regard to turning from unrighteousness to righteousness, or remain where we're at. If we stay where we're at, God will eventually once again confine us to where we're at in sin and won't open up the opportunity for us to be saved ever again.


Not until God calls us. Until then every person dead in their sins is held fast in slavery to their sin. They have no free will to repent and live for God in faith. God has turned all unbelievers over to the slavery of sin. That is the boundary defined for the unbeliever. Only with the gospel message and the giving of faith through the word of God to receive and believe the gospel is a person released from those boundaries and able to exercise free will in regard to righteousness.

Tomorrow.
There's too much for now.

 

[jasonc]

It's like we don't try to understand each other.
We just all want to be right. I don't think anyone on this forum knows God 100%.

Paul said we see through a glass darkly.
God is bigger than we all think.

I think the maze was the problem, not necessarily what was running through it.

Also, I think language is a problem. I say something, the other member understands something I didn't mean.

The reason we're here is what counts in the end.
I need to discuss with persons of like beliefs.

My days are numbered .

Honestly if my brother who I can post videos of his debate can watch my pastors videos and bro is free willer.pastor is a five pointer .plus my church very anti pentacostal,rents to a spanish church whose worship leader I seek counsel from and the elders know .why do I need this?

 

[jasonc]

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, we are speaking of free will in regard to morality and choosing the gospel in faith. We are also subject to the moral boundaries God has put us in in the same way that we are subject to the physical boundaries that God has put us in. That's why physical boundaries can help us understand the nature of our moral boundaries and how God ultimately controls them, not us.

It isn't until the call of the gospel comes that a person can make a free will decision to repent and turn from the slavery of their immoral behavior that God has turned all men over to. God doesn't open up the salvation part of the maze to us until he determines that it will be open to us. That is when we can then exercise free will in regard to turning from unrighteousness to righteousness, or remain where we're at. If we stay where we're at, God will eventually once again confine us to where we're at in sin and won't open up the opportunity for us to be saved ever again.


Not until God calls us. Until then every person dead in their sins is held fast in slavery to their sin. They have no free will to repent and live for God in faith. God has turned all unbelievers over to the slavery of sin. That is the boundary defined for the unbeliever. Only with the gospel message and the giving of faith through the word of God to receive and believe the gospel is a person released from those boundaries and able to exercise free will in regard to righteousness.

First thing needed is for God to make one alive? Until then man and his will is dead.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The earth is us.
The seed is the Word of God.
The response is of free will in all cases.
The devil takes away the word from some...but they allow this to happen.

It doesn’t say they allow that to happen. It doesn’t say why but I doubt that’s the answer.

As to the rats in a maze.
We DO have to admit that we are in the home of satan, the prince of the air.

No, the Christian view is that Jesus is King. The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord. Jesus has the authority now.

God did deposit us in his home.
God did set up the paradigm we live in.

In this sense we can say that we are like rats in a maze.
Since we have a loving God, I would not explain it that way.
But we each have our own way of understanding God.

Well, those who think we are just “rats in a maze” don’t understand God at all. God has said to people, “stand up and talk to me like a man” not simply offer cheese every time He wanted something out of a man. The description is insulting. What Father would like the small children in his home to be called “rats in amaze” because he rewards them as a teaching method?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We both know what rogerg believes.
He's not speaking to me anymore either BTW.
I must be one heck of a gal to deal with.

I also don't believe you've understood Jethro...
But you could just ask him if he believes we have free will, in a moral sense.

According to Luke 15, the Prodigal Son, the window never shuts down.
I do believe that the longer a person hardens their heart, the more difficult it'll become to accept salvation.

I’ve asked him extensively and yes he believes God only grants free will for a limited time, then shuts it down.

Cooper nicely explained the calvinist position and @Jethro’s view of what reformed theology is doesn’t match what Cooper said as I’ve always said. I don’t agree with reformed theology but I do understand it and will defend false accusations.

 

[Cooper]

The above is very true Cooper.
But it doesn't answer the entire question of why there is evil.
Evil does not mean only evil persons, the word evil encompasses anything bad that could happen.

For instance in Romans 8:19-22 we're told that even creation itself is longing to be redeemed.

When Adam fell, he subjected mankind to evil and he also subjected nature to evil.
A mild wind can turn into a hurricane.
A soft wave can turn into a tsunami.
etc.

This cannot be explained by men doing evil since man has no control over nature.
Think of it, evil is present in EVERYTHING that is on earth.

But... without malice aforethought unlike man... and...

a. The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits: Paul considers that creation itself is eagerly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God. This is because the creation was subjected to futility on account of man’s sin, and will benefit from the ultimate redemption of men.

i. Isa_11:6-9 describes this redemption of creation in that day: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

b. Him who subjected it in hope: Only God could subject creation in hope. This was not ultimately the work of either man or Satan.

c. The glorious liberty of the children of God: This benefits not only the children of God themselves, but also all of creation. Until that day, creation groans and labors with birth pangs.

d. The revealing of the sons of God: Certain groups with a “super-Christian” mentality take the idea of the revealing of the sons of God to say that all creation is waiting for their particular group of super-spiritual Christians to be revealed in an incredibly powerful fashion. This is a purely egotistical fantasy.

e. The whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now: “Creation is not undergoing death pangs... but birth pangs.” (Morris)

Sons of God
Mat_5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God. (AFV)
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. (AFV)
.

 

[GodsGrace]

But... without malice aforethought unlike man... and...

a. The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits: Paul considers that creation itself is eagerly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God. This is because the creation was subjected to futility on account of man’s sin, and will benefit from the ultimate redemption of men.

i. Isa_11:6-9 describes this redemption of creation in that day: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

b. Him who subjected it in hope: Only God could subject creation in hope. This was not ultimately the work of either man or Satan.

c. The glorious liberty of the children of God: This benefits not only the children of God themselves, but also all of creation. Until that day, creation groans and labors with birth pangs.

d. The revealing of the sons of God: Certain groups with a “super-Christian” mentality take the idea of the revealing of the sons of God to say that all creation is waiting for their particular group of super-spiritual Christians to be revealed in an incredibly powerful fashion. This is a purely egotistical fantasy.

e. The whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now: “Creation is not undergoing death pangs... but birth pangs.” (Morris)

(David Guzik)
.

Hi Cooper,
There are hundreds of books out there.
I'm not too concerned with what any author states because we all see things our own way.

If you don't believe the fall caused evil to invade everything, then this is your answer. I'm not going to debate it ad infinitum because I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...just exchanging ideas.

So could you tell me in your own words what it is you believe?
Do you think evil does NOT damage nature?

Then how would YOU explain a hurricane or tsunami?

 

[Cooper]

Hi Cooper,
There are hundreds of books out there.
I'm not too concerned with what any author states because we all see things our own way.

If you don't believe the fall caused evil to invade everything, then this is your answer. I'm not going to debate it ad infinitum because I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...just exchanging ideas.

So could you tell me in your own words what it is you believe?
Do you think evil does NOT damage nature?

Then how would YOU explain a hurricane or tsunami?

I think the forces of nature are what God used in creation, and we should thank Him for it.
.

 

[n2thelight]

No need. n2thelight graciously provided what Calvinists believe and disagrees with your description. I don’t agree with calvinists, but I will defend false accusations against them.

Truth be told , I really don't know what Calvinist believe , I just go with, thus say the scripture with who or whatever

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the forces of nature are what God used in creation, and we should thank Him for it.
.

I don't understand what this means...

 

[GodsGrace]

Truth be told , I really don't know what Calvinist believe , I just go with, thus say the scripture with who or whatever

It's pretty much impossible to read scripture and come away with any reformed/calvinist idea.

If a person has calvinist beliefs, it means he has been indoctrinated in those teachings.

 

[Cooper]

I don't understand what this means...

Well, for example, the Bible tells us water covered the earth and geologists have been able to show this to be correct. (The Bible is wonderful, only divinely inspired people could write these things.)
Then the land appeared.

All the land mass was at the South Pole, and gradually over millions of years, the continents spread across the whole globe. There were tremendous forces exerted causing earthquakes and undersea volcanic eruptions as the continents moved, causing massive waves. The forces are tremendous. I live in central England, as far from the sea as it is possible to be, but near to where I live in a place called Castleton, there is a small mountain and on the top are sea shells. It was all under the North Sea millions of years ago, and this is how mountains are formed. It is still happening, which is why we have recently had tsunamis. The earth is still forming and moving. Amazing, and it is not sinister, so do not worry.
.

 

[Cooper]

Hi Cooper,
There are hundreds of books out there.
I'm not too concerned with what any author states because we all see things our own way.

If you don't believe the fall caused evil to invade everything, then this is your answer. I'm not going to debate it ad infinitum because I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...just exchanging ideas.

So could you tell me in your own words what it is you believe?
Do you think evil does NOT damage nature?

Then how would YOU explain a hurricane or tsunami?

I believe the Bible's account of the fall. Of course, I do. I am sorry if I gave that impression.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we are speaking of free will in regard to morality and choosing the gospel in faith. We are also subject to the moral boundaries God has put us in in the same way that we are subject to the physical boundaries that God has put us in. That's why physical boundaries can help us understand the nature of our moral boundaries and how God ultimately controls them, not us.

I don't understand about moral boundaries.
What would that be?
When faced with a moral issue we decide either yes or no, act upon it or not, etc.
Could you give an example?

It isn't until the call of the gospel comes that a person can make a free will decision to repent and turn from the slavery of their immoral behavior that God has turned all men over to.

I understand about the moral slavery:
Romans 6:16 we are slaves of the one we obey.

This does not mean that unborn persons make ONLY evil decisions....some are very good persons.
But they still retain the sin nature they were born with and which needs to be eradicated.
Is this what you mean?

God doesn't open up the salvation part of the maze to us until he determines that it will be open to us. That is when we can then exercise free will in regard to turning from unrighteousness to righteousness, or remain where we're at. If we stay where we're at, God will eventually once again confine us to where we're at in sin and won't open up the opportunity for us to be saved ever again.

Isn't the salvation part always open to us?
I don't know of any scripture that inhibits salvation at the time when we desire it.
IF you're saying that God makes us desire it...then, yes, that is a bit calvinistic in nature.

Also, we can fall away and then go back to God if we wish.
It's just that it becomes more difficult.
Many have returned to God...He doesn't turn anyone away.
John 6:37
However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. (NLT)

Not until God calls us. Until then every person dead in their sins is held fast in slavery to their sin. They have no free will to repent and live for God in faith. God has turned all unbelievers over to the slavery of sin. That is the boundary defined for the unbeliever. Only with the gospel message and the giving of faith through the word of God to receive and believe the gospel is a person released from those boundaries and able to exercise free will in regard to righteousness.

I agree with the above. We are only free when we have been freed from the slavery of sin.
He makes us free indeed.

But your second sentence sounds like Total Depravity.
The T in T.U.L.I.P.
You're, in effect, saying that we cannot be saved unless God wants us to be saved.
That's reformed theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, for example, the Bible tells us water covered the earth and geologists have been able to show this to be correct. (The Bible is wonderful, only divinely inspired people could write these things.)
Then the land appeared.

All the land mass was at the South Pole, and gradually over millions of years, the continents spread across the whole globe. There were tremendous forces exerted causing earthquakes and undersea volcanic eruptions as the continents moved, causing massive waves. The forces are tremendous. I live in central England, as far from the sea as it is possible to be, but near to where I live in a place called Castleton, there is a small mountain and on the top are sea shells. It was all under the North Sea millions of years ago, and this is how mountains are formed. It is still happening, which is why we have recently had tsunamis. The earth is still forming and moving. Amazing, and it is not sinister, so do not worry.
.

Of course I agree with the above.
But the tsunami is still an evil force.
It cannot be a good force since it causes so much damage.

When God put Adam in the Garden, everything was perfect.
A and Eve got along well with animals and nature.
What happened when Adam fell?
What relationships did he lose?

 

[GodsGrace]

But... without malice aforethought unlike man... and...

a. The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits: Paul considers that creation itself is eagerly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God. This is because the creation was subjected to futility on account of man’s sin, and will benefit from the ultimate redemption of men.

i. Isa_11:6-9 describes this redemption of creation in that day: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

b. Him who subjected it in hope: Only God could subject creation in hope. This was not ultimately the work of either man or Satan.

c. The glorious liberty of the children of God: This benefits not only the children of God themselves, but also all of creation. Until that day, creation groans and labors with birth pangs.

d. The revealing of the sons of God: Certain groups with a “super-Christian” mentality take the idea of the revealing of the sons of God to say that all creation is waiting for their particular group of super-spiritual Christians to be revealed in an incredibly powerful fashion. This is a purely egotistical fantasy.

e. The whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now: “Creation is not undergoing death pangs... but birth pangs.” (Morris)

Sons of God
Mat_5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God. (AFV)
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. (AFV)
.

I see what you mean above.
Nature has no malice - is that what you're saying?

OK. Nature has no intentional malice. This is true.
But evil does not have to be intentional. Adam released evil into the world.
Nature might be reacting to some force - maybe the earth is still changing,
maybe winds are too high in speed...
however, it's important to understand (in Christianity) that Adam's fall affected everything...
His relationship to himself,
His relationship to others,
His relationship to God,
and His relationship to nature...

It would now become adversarial.
I think you've heard the phrase: MAN AGAINST NATURE.

We are not at odds with nature. It is no longer friendly toward us completely...
It can be good
and it can be evil.