Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[Eventide]

being mortal is not sin.

It's the consequence of sin, DEATH... which was pronounced upon Adam after his transgression. Romans 5 imo covers this in detail.

You cannot say human without also either stating or implying our mortal state of that nature. We are also born mortal, but without sin.

And once again, our mortality (condemnation in the first Adam) was pronounced by God.. after Adam's transgression, and DEATH has passed upon ALL MEN (in the first Adam) since..

We are born innocent which is why and how Christ could be born of the Virgin Mary. One must actually sin and Christ also had the capability sin, but did not.[ If He did not have the ability to sin, then there is no benefit to man that Christ could have kept the law perfectly. This is why He can command us not to sin, to curb sin, to be perfect as He is perfect.

Complete disagreement here.. The Lord Jesus Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit of God within the virgin Mary.. after she believed the message from above.. nothing at all to do with the first Adam's seed...

And the Lord Jesus Christ's DIVINE nature can not sin... it's completely out of the question.. because of the very fact that He cannot be deceived or disobedient to His own nature.. the very examples within the scriptures prove to us that GOD cannot be tempted with evil.. and it's explicitly stated that GOD can NOT be tempted by evil... even though He was tempted.. the fact remains that He can not be tempted, iow it's futile..

Having a sin nature is a common protestant statement because it is based on the erroneous concept of Original Sin. Our mortal nature makes us sinful, but we do not have a sin nature. It would be impossible to save us from sin ,or we could never stop or not sin if one had a sin nature. From scriptures standpoint and theologically the concept is quite incorrect.

Then by all means share what it means to you that the FLESH always wars against the SPIRIT, and that they are contrary to one another..?

 

[Cassian]

Eventide,

being mortal is not sin.

YOur response....

It's the consequence of sin, DEATH... which was pronounced upon Adam after his transgression. Romans 5 imo covers this in detail.

Yes, it is the consequence of sin. A state of being, being mortal, is not sin or sinning. Sin is an act that someone does. We sin through our mortal natures which thus makes us sinful.

And once again, our mortality (condemnation in the first Adam) was pronounced by God.. after Adam's transgression, and DEATH has passed upon ALL MEN (in the first Adam) since..

It was indicated or presented to Adam before he sinned. If Adam sinned the consequence of that sin was death. Loss of life, eternal existance.

My statement.....We are born innocent which is why and how Christ could be born of the Virgin Mary. One must actually sin and Christ also had the capability sin, but did not. If He did not have the ability to sin, then there is no benefit to man that Christ could have kept the law perfectly. This is why He can command us not to sin, to curb sin, to be perfect as He is perfect.

Your response.....

Complete disagreement here.. The Lord Jesus Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit of God within the virgin Mary.. after she believed the message from above.. nothing at all to do with the first Adam's seed...

Yes, this is why He was both God and man. I don't follow the seed concept here, but Mary is a human being, who has a mortal nature. All human beings born of human beings are mortal and human. Thus Christ's humanity came from Mary. Because Christ had our very same human nature, by His death and resurrection He raised that human nature to life. It is why Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead.

And the Lord Jesus Christ's DIVINE nature can not sin... it's completely out of the question.. because of the very fact that He cannot be deceived or disobedient to His own nature..

then you have an unscriptural understanding of Christ and His Incarnation. We are speaking about His humanity here not His Divine nature. The temptations by Satan were very real. Christ is being tempted just as we are, but did not sin.

and it's explicitly stated that GOD can NOT be tempted by evil... even though He was tempted..

It was not God that was being tempted. It was Christ in His Human nature that is being tempted.

Having a sin nature is a common protestant statement because it is based on the erroneous concept of Original Sin. Our mortal nature makes us sinful, but we do not have a sin nature. It would be impossible to save us from sin ,or we could never stop or not sin if one had a sin nature. From scriptures standpoint and theologically the concept is quite incorrect.

YOur response...

Then by all means share what it means to you that the FLESH always wars against the SPIRIT, and that they are contrary to one another..?

the fact that there is a war going on emphatically confirms that we do not have a sin nature, but a sinful one. We can resist sin, we can stop bad sinning habits. That is the war between the spirit and flesh of man. We do not need to succumb to the temptations.

If we had a sin nature, and I really don't know how to explain it, but we would not even be able to sin, we would be sin. A nature is a state of being, It is what we are, not what we do. What we do is sin as mortals.

Christ would never have been able to save us from death and sin, since He would have been sin, if we had a sin nature. YOu would need to devise a theology as the RCC did because they recognized this problem with Original Sin notion. So instead of dumpting a false notion they devised a second to correct it, thus the Immacculate Conception of Mary to keep Christ from being born a sinner or with a sin nature. ONe false teaching leads to others when man tries to interpret scripture.

 

[Eventide]

So instead of dumpting a false notion they devised a second to correct it, thus the Immacculate Conception of Mary to keep Christ from being born a sinner or with a sin nature. ONe false teaching leads to others when man tries to interpret scripture.

No kidding...

With a statement such as this, I'll gladly bow out of this discussion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Will be made the Righteousness of God in Him !


2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that or in order that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That we [The Church, the Called and Chosen] should be made [poieō] the Righteousness of God in Him; and for this cause God purposed that through Death for sin, God condemning the sins of those Christ died for in Christ's Flesh Rom 8:3, and as a Result and fruit thereof, they were to be made [experientially] New Creatures, Living to God for His Eternal Purpose 1 Pet 1:3; and this is to be preached as an achievement of Christ's Work [being made sin], Thats the Message of the Cross that Paul Gloried in Gal 6:14; Even here Paul is expressing the Blessed Effects of the Cross of Christ, for it brings about an crucifixion or separation from this evil world, according to the Will of God Gal 1:4, particularly the evil world of false religion, The evil false religious systems that hated and crucified Christ Jn 15:18-19


18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Faith or Believing is a Work !

Now that Faith or Believing is a work can be discerned by Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Whereby believing is stated to be the Work of God, and if we take this to mean that ones believing in Christ is an effectual Work of God in us to will and to do of His good pleasure as Per Phil 2:13 or that believing is the Work or duty that God requires men to do in order to believing in Christ, Now if the former, then God must be given all the credit for working in one to believe in His Son, but if the latter, that our believing is that work God requireth of us, to believe on His Son unto Salvation, then we are saved by our work. Either way believing is a Work here, the Work of Believing, So if it is our work of believing that got us saved, then that is Salvation by works and contrary to Scripture which saith Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Freewill gives man to boast !

Freewill gives man reason to boast , which is contrary to Grace Salvation through faith Eph 2:8-9, not of works lest any man should boast. Arminians and freewillers make themselves to differ in that they obeyed the command to repent to be saved, and so made himself to differ from him who did not obey the command to repent. So they overthrow the principle that Paul sets forth here in 1 Cor 4:7

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The True Christian knows for certain that their obedience to the Gospel was given them from Heaven Jn 3:27 where Christ sitteth at the Right hand of God Col 3:1

So those who believe and teach that their obedience made the difference for them of saved and lost, congratulations, for you are officially a boaster 2 Tim 3:2

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

For they are too proud to say that God Only makes one to differ in the acts of Gospel Obedience because that Deny's their idol freewill !

 

[BornAgain]

Freewill gives man to boast !

Freewill gives man reason to boast , which is contrary to Grace Salvation through faith Eph 2:8-9, not of works lest any man should boast. Arminians and freewillers make themselves to differ in that they obeyed the command to repent to be saved, and so made himself to differ from him who did not obey the command to repent. So they overthrow the principle that Paul sets forth here in 1 Cor 4:7

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The True Christian knows for certain that their obedience to the Gospel was given them from Heaven Jn 3:27 where Christ sitteth at the Right hand of God Col 3:1

So those who believe and teach that their obedience made the difference for them of saved and lost, congratulations, for you are officially a boaster 2 Tim 3:2

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

For they are too proud to say that God Only makes one to differ in the acts of Gospel Obedience because that Deny's their idol freewill !

I agree! The overview of 2 Timothy 3 is an excellent preface to the Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy.

Dangerous times in the latter days, from the apostasy and wickedness of men, of whom an affecting description is given, vv. 1-7. It shall happen to them as to Jannes and Jambres, who withstood Moses, vv. 8, 9. The apostle speaks of his persecutions and sufferings, and shows that all those who will live a godly life must suffer persecution, vv. 10-12, because evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, v. 13. Timothy is exhorted to continue in the truths he had received, having known the Scriptures from a child, vv. 14, 15. All Scripture is given by Divine inspiration, vv. 16, 17.


2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 2 Tim 3:2 (KJV)


lovers of money,—Filled with selfish greed for the accumulation of wealth; improperly desirous of gain.

boastful,—These arrogate to themselves honors which do not fairly belong to them.

haughty,—These are they who contemptuously look down on others beneath them either in social position or wealth or in natural gifts.

railers,—Are scornful, insolent, and blame with bitterness. They carry the war of their tongues into the camp of the enemy and give vent to their vengeance against God or man. It is sinful in either case.

disobedient to parents,—No character has been more condemned by God that those disobedient to parents. Under the law of Moses the stubborn and rebellious son who would not obey his parents was to be stoned to death. (Deut. 21:18-20.) The parents stood in the place of God to the child, and if it would not obey them they could not expect it to obey God. [Christ has set up a new standard of individual responsibility which sometimes makes it necessary for children, when they have come to years of responsibility, to act contrary to the wishes of their parents in order that they may obey God. The Lord said: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matt. 10:37.) Yet parents have not forfeited all their natural rights, and in all matters where obedience to God is not at stake children are even more bound to yield them respect, obedience, and tender affection.]

unthankful,—[Children who begin life with disobedience to their parents with rare exceptions are ungrateful to all others who may show them kindness in their life journey. Ingratitude has always been regarded as one of the worst of crimes. It is said here that it would characterize that wicked age of which Paul speaks.]

unholy,—Not consecrated to God through their want of purity; defiled with sin, irreligious. [Those who scoff at holiness of life and character in its deepest sense.]

 

[Cassian]

Freewill gives man to boast !

Freewill gives man reason to boast , which is contrary to Grace Salvation through faith Eph 2:8-9, not of works lest any man should boast.

Only because you are still quite confused as the difference between two very distinct aspects of our salvation. Here you confuse the salvation by Christ where man does not have any effect or affect upon it, thus it is all grace, which is what Eph 2:5 states.

When Paul is speaking of works are not beneficial for man he is speaking of the works of the law saving us. Christ saved us from death because even if we could do the works perfectly, we could not overcome death.

But respective of our walk with God, through faith, it does require works, they are called "work of righteousness" and is stated most clearly in I John 3:7.

Arminians and freewillers make themselves to differ in that they obeyed the command to repent to be saved, and so made himself to differ from him who did not obey the command to repent. So they overthrow the principle that Paul sets forth here in 1 Cor 4:7

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Since all men are created with a free will, no man is different from another. We are all consubstantial with each other, meaning we are all of the very same essence. So one man does not need to boast that he has free will and another does not. We are free to do what we desire with that will, which does make each different. As far as salvation, God calls all men to repentance through the Holy Spirit, II Pet 3:9, Mark 2:17, Rom 2:4. Each man can respond to God as he desires.

The True Christian knows for certain that their obedience to the Gospel was given them from Heaven Jn 3:27 where Christ sitteth at the Right hand of God Col 3:1 Obedience is an act, acts that we do are not given by Christ. Both texts are grossly misapplied prooftext.

So those who believe and teach that their obedience made the difference for them of saved and lost, congratulations, for you are officially a boaster 2 Tim 3:2

it would be if works actually saved a person. But scripture says we are saved through faith. Works are part of that faith, but works alone is just as dead as faith alone.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

You describe unbelievers here, not those who are being saved through faith.

For they are too proud to say that God Only makes one to differ in the acts of Gospel Obedience because that Deny's their idol freewill !

It denies your straw man again, but ti also makes God disengenuous, capricious, and a respector of persons. All things that do not depict what scripture says about God.

 

[Atothetheist]

Free will has been debunked. Neuroscience has found that you actually make decisions before you ever even aware that you have made the decision.
there is no such thing as concious choosing, it is done with the subconcious, which is something you can't control.


I thought this would be a lot more common for you to know.

 

[Cassian]

Free will has been debunked. Neuroscience has found that you actually make decisions before you ever even aware that you have made the decision.
there is no such thing as concious choosing, it is done with the subconcious, which is something you can't control.


I thought this would be a lot more common for you to know.

Modern man has for a very long time tried to develop theories whereby he would not be responsible for his actions. All one needs to do is visit trials and see all the things that are tired to show man is exempt from any and all responsibility.

 

[childeye]

Modern man has for a very long time tried to develop theories whereby he would not be responsible for his actions. All one needs to do is visit trials and see all the things that are tired to show man is exempt from any and all responsibility.

While it can be said people have tried to find excuses to escape responsibility for their actions, it can also be said people try to find reasons to cast blame and condemn. And as it applys to both, Jesus said, forgive them for they know not what they do, the sick need a doctor, and he came to give sight to the blind. I don't think he was theorizing.

 

[Atothetheist]

Modern man has for a very long time tried to develop theories whereby he would not be responsible for his actions. All one needs to do is visit trials and see all the things that are tired to show man is exempt from any and all responsibility.

Nope, notice what I SAID.

I said their unconcsious mind is making the decisions. they still make a decision, but our we can't conciously change the unconcious.

Based off your brains thinking, it made the choice before you had time to CONCIOUSLY thinking you did.

Its your conciousness that has no free will in this instance, not the human.

 

[Cassian]

Nope, notice what I SAID.

I said their unconcsious mind is making the decisions. they still make a decision, but our we can't conciously change the unconcious.

Based off your brains thinking, it made the choice before you had time to CONCIOUSLY thinking you did.

Its your conciousness that has no free will in this instance, not the human.

And what has that to do with the topic at hand? Our will is based on rational process, reasoning out alternatives. If you think that all thinking and decisions are only from unconscious you would be living a myth.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Free will has been debunked. Neuroscience has found that you actually make decisions before you ever even aware that you have made the decision. there is no such thing as concious choosing, it is done with the subconcious, which is something you can't control. I thought this would be a lot more common for you to know.

I strongly disagree.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the brain child of Aaron Beck, a Christian psychotherapist who knew that belief systems are vital to good mental health. He turned to the Bible to develop a therapy model that involved turning to Christ for aid in changing behaviors and habits. CBT involves identifying automatic thoughts as a key component of cognitive therapy. All individuals group and organize thoughts into schemas, or organized thought patterns. These thought patterns should provide a way for interpreting and understanding the world around us, and organize our core beliefs, and influencing an acceptable set of behaviors. Those initial automatic thoughts can be negative or distorted, however, and negative schemas can develop from multiple cognitive distortions that lead to depression, anxiety disorders or addictions.

Beck identified several cognitive distortions that affect individual feelings, thoughts, and beliefs. Those distortions include all-or-nothing thinking, overgeneralization, selective abstraction, "mind reading," negative prediction, catastrophizing, labeling, magnification or minimization, and personalization. (If you like, I can define these terms for you. I'm using them so as not to make my post unreadably long.) Careful attention to detail and self-assessments can change thought distortions.

Cognitive therapists assist their clients through collaborating with them in assessing their thoughts and behaviors. Another goal of therapy is to help clients identify their cognitive distortions and negative schemas. Cognitive therapists take an educational role with their clients in helping them understand their distorted beliefs. Often the intervention is instructional. Cognitive therapists may assign homework, go over the homework during session, and/or examine current beliefs and develop alternatives.

Incidentally, Beck developed this therapy model, put it into clinical trials, wrote peer-reviewed papers about CBT and saw it accepted as a standard behavior therapy model before he ever revealed it was biblically based. His peers never would have accepted it they knew its origins.

As a mental health professional (substance abuse counselor) I use Cognitive Behavioral Therapy in treatment regimens. And since I know Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works, as evidenced by non-clinical depression being cured, anxiety disorders being rendered non-effective, and addicts/alcoholics/compulsive gamblers being clean, sober and abstinent, that disproves your contention that free will is "debunked" or that there is no such thing as "conscious choosing." Your view cannot hope to stand up to scrutiny.

 

[AlexBC]

But people do relapse. Notall alcoholics, drug users are cured of their addiction.

I don't think either of you can claim victory in a discussion on free will.

Though I do tend to lean towards compatibilistic free will.

 

[Mitspa]

It seems many by their own" free will" now call a doctrine ,salvation? It seems many now attempt to serve God apart from the Holy Spirit and walk in the flesh. The Cross is the place where ALL the will of the first created man must be put to death, and "the will" of The Spirit must be accepted. Salvation is not about "free will" at all, but about a complete surrender to the will of God, by His Spirit!

Col 1:27



To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28



Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29



Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

 

[Cassian]

It seems many by their own" free will" now call a doctrine ,salvation? It seems many now attempt to serve God apart from the Holy Spirit and walk in the flesh. The Cross is the place where ALL the will of the first created man must be put to death, and "the will" of The Spirit must be accepted. Salvation is not about "free will" at all, but about a complete surrender to the will of God, by His Spirit!

Either this is a contradiction or you have a much different definition of free will. Man submitting to God's will is premised on man's free will.

 

[childeye]

Either this is a contradiction or you have a much different definition of free will. Man submitting to God's will is premised on man's free will.

Actually, submission is based upon acknowledgment of Truth. Knowledge supplants ignorance and pride hinders submission. For this reason, Jesus was seen upon the cross, to show that God is of a Character that would sacrifice Himself to save us.

But this can only be realized through revelation. Therefore Jesus says you cannot believe in me because you do not have God's word abiding in your heart. And also, no one can come to me unless it is given by the Father. And God has chosen the lowly and base things to put to naught the high things, so that the Glory may be God's and not credited to a man's choice. Otherwise pride would be served and humility unrealized. Therefore Jesus says, bless you Father, for You have hidden from the learned and scholarly what You have revealed to mere children.

 

[Cassian]

Actually, submission is based upon acknowledgment of Truth. Knowledge supplants ignorance and pride hinders submission. For this reason, Jesus was seen upon the cross, to show that God is of a Character that would sacrifice Himself to save us.

But this can only be realized through revelation. Therefore Jesus says you cannot believe in me because you do not have God's word abiding in your heart. And also, no one can come to me unless it is given by the Father. And God has chosen the lowly and base things to put to naught the high things, so that the Glory may be God's and not credited to a man's choice. Otherwise pride would be served and humility unrealized. Therefore Jesus says, bless you Father, for You have hidden from the learned and scholarly what You have revealed to mere children.

Revelation is also premised on man's free will. Without free will revelation is moot. Since God calls all men to repentance to use the gifts they have which includes our free will to choose Him. What has choice to do with pride, it is an obligation of our very existance. It is expected of us.

 

[Mitspa]

Revelation is also premised on man's free will. Without free will revelation is moot. Since God calls all men to repentance to use the gifts they have which includes our free will to choose Him. What has choice to do with pride, it is an obligation of our very existance. It is expected of us.

I like to use scripture to make a biblical point. I guess you have none to offer, since you did not use any? Here is a few of many, i would like to hear you comment upon.



Joh 6:44



No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Rom 12:2



And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.







Eph 1:11





In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Php 2:13



For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


2Pe 2:10



But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Mat 16:24



Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If anymanwill come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
1Co 2:2



For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

2Co 10:5



Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

there are so many more! but my point is No One can claim they serve God by their own "free will" but even salvation is "Gods Will" ! Now many christains walk in the "will of the flesh" and no nothing of what it means to walk in the Spirit. Thats what i see in the so-called "free-will" groups. But maybe i dont understand what some mean by the term? Please explain if i have got it wrong?