Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[ezra]

I guess you are not going to deal with the points I have provided, so long ! I have backed up all my points for what I believe since the OP, but you have had your opportunity to deal with each point, and you evade it !

ok i understand your statement of Freewill religion is the Man of Sin. can not be backed up by scripture thus it makes it of your opinion and your opinion only .. i wont ask you again since you can,t produce scripture to back up your opinion:shocked!

 

[reba]

savedbygrace57 , Paul never speaks of the reign of Antichrist.

No where in Scripture does God speak of the 'reign of Antichrist.'

Thats your opinion. I say he did, in the verse I quoted !

Well the Scriptures say different.... Here are the only times the word antichrist are found in scripture.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

if you ask me a question i will show scripture.

I am asking will you show scripture of Paul using the term antichrist?

 

[Eventide]

As a thief in the night...

I guess you are not going to deal with the points I have provided, so long ! I have backed up all my points for what I believe since the OP, but you have had your opportunity to deal with each point, and you evade it !

Even though this thread is as pathetic as it gets imo... and has gone on and on for countless pages.. its entire premise is false.. for one simple reason..

The DAY of the Lord has NOT yet come and that man of sin has NOT YET been revealed..

SBG, refute that if you can.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Well the Scriptures say different.... Here are the only times the word antichrist are found in scripture.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



I am asking will you show scripture of Paul using the term antichrist?

None of those scriptures say that the antichrist is not now reigning.

Then on top of that, you have evaded the points of the posts that clearly evidence that antichrist is reigning in religion today.

 

[savedbygrace57]

reba

I am asking will you show scripture of Paul using the term antichrist?

Paul does not have to use scripture that literally say antichrist, the term merely means against Christ.

Teachings that oppose Christ is antichrist. That is the point in 2 Thess 2:4

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.







The word opposeth here means to be contrary in doctrine as in 1 Tim 1:10





10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

falso doctrines that were contrary to the doctrines of Christ is what John calls antichrist !

2 Jn 1:9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

So I see no validity in your comments, just appears you lack an understanding of what antichrist means in scripture.

 

[reba]

i understand the meaning of the word antichrist using scritpure to interpret scripture God/via John made that very clear.

I also understand some showing of a double standard on your part. Like the rest of us you hold certain scripture to the letter of what is written, like the rest of us you to are interpreting how you truly believe them to be.

 

[savedbygrace57]

i understand the meaning of the word antichrist using scritpure to interpret scripture God/via John made that very clear.

I also understand some showing of a double standard on your part. Like the rest of us you hold certain scripture to the letter of what is written, like the rest of us you to are interpreting how you truly believe them to be.

You have your opinion, I explained mine, you do not accept it, fine, I just believe you do not understand what antichrist means, and that its not necessary to use verbtim words to express the same meaning ! Its just to me aaples for oranges and gives one a exscape to evade the points.

 

[reba]

Yup evading the point.

 

[savedbygrace57]

When a Person comes to believing, it is because he or she has come to apprehend their Salvation, Justification and Righteousness has been freely given them of God, they have been convinced of that, and so it is error to teach that believing is a condition one performs to make these things True of them, but we are convinced of them to be already true of us because of Christ's Work, then we believe or Trust in the things revealed to and by Faith !

Also when they come to truly believe of their Justification by Faith for the first time as it is declared to them, they also come to realize that it [Justification by Christ] was a reality hid in God before the foundation of the World, because from everlasting, Christ did satisfy God's Law and Justice, in that He became a Surety for the their sins, and God ever rested well pleased in the Suretyship of Christ Matt 3:17, therefore He laid aside all wrath and condemnation against them, laying it squarely on the shoulders of their Surety to bear it in due time !

 

[Eventide]

Re: As a thief in the night...

The DAY of the Lord has NOT yet come and that man of sin has NOT YET been revealed..

SBG, refute that if you can.

Or just ignore it...

It literally took about one minute to refute the nonsense of this thread and it doesn't even matter one iota to those who can do nothing but push the false doctrine of Calvinism..

Truth doesn't matter anymore.

Anyone willing to explain when the Day of the Lord came and went and when the man of sin had been revealed to be those who believe in freewill...

Does it get any more ridiculous than this ?

 

[smaller]

Pointed out earlier to SBG that whether a believer believed via their imperfect perceptions of freewill or the imperfect perceptions of determinism they are still believers, both alike in belief.

All views are partial sight views in any case so there is 'no perfect determinist' view nor is there 'perfect freewill' views.

And in any case both freewiller and determinist are also factually sinners. So this doesn't change based on freewill or determinism either.

I myself generally accept the determinist positions, but do so only from a factual partial sighted understanding. And I can also drive some Mack Truck sized holes through Calvinism and SBG's positions both from a scriptural perspective and from actually trying to 'abide' under those views that are not all that great, part of which is above.

No believer is 'anti-Christ' if they have called upon the Lord in faith to save them, whether by their later understandings of freewill or determinism. The bulk of these views come after simple belief and are quite a sideshow to the main event of faith in Christ anyway.

The anti-Christ is a spirit, so it is not your fellow believers no matter what their views. The anti-Christ spirit is in fact the spirit of Satan, in effect an anti-spirit, not a MAN.

And I would also venture that spirit tends to taint 'all' of our views and is the cause of partial sight to begin with as well as total blindness to the Gospel. In this way I myself am more sympathetic toward the blind, knowing that God can show them Himself IF HE SO CHOOSES. But it does not pay for me to witness to them if I can't speak the truth of the matter, that they are blinded by the god of this world IN MIND and HEART. In this way a witness who does not witness truthfully will NOT be honored in that witness by God 'as much.'

As low of a barrier to entry will seem a good thing in my own eyes. A barrier I am not willing to erect.

Determinism does in many ways 'block' the gate of Heaven, in some cases as SBG's view where even a believer who doesn't believe like him is blocked, even while he can not admit his own partial sight.

Too bad on him for now. I believe God will save both him and the freewillers regardless on the simple basis of faith. That way there is no barriers to either of them in my eyes.

s

 

[ezra]

he wants it his way. he refuses to give scripture that says : Freewill religion is the Man of Sin.. why? because there is none to back up his claim*

 

[savedbygrace57]

1 Jn 2:2 has been corrupted !


1 Jn 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is one verse the Antichrist crowd has hijacked to promote their false teaching. Christ our Propitiation or our satisfaction or our appeasing for our sins, before God's Law and Justice. How can any member of this world, that John is pointing out here, how can any member of it be under God's wrath and condemnation as per Jn 3:18,36 ?

For the world here is the world which Christ died for and therefore whose sins were never imputed to it 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Christ is continually being a propitiation for this World before God's Law and Justice, for He is it's Advocate ! The words He is in 1 Jn 2:2 are in the present tense, He is in a continual state presently being our Propitiation for our sins before God's Law and Justice, and against all accusations of the law, and the Devil and our enemies.

Christ has in fulfillment of the Type, offered Himself in dying, and then as our intercessor and advocate entered into within the veil, into Heaven itself, to present His Blood before God; To sprinkle it as it were on and before the Mercy Seat, and to present His Satisfaction or Propitiation continuously there for us, that is the Whole Elect World or Church for which He died ! Heb 8:1-2,6

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Now in propitiation Christ is presently, for all whom He died 1 Jn 2:2 ,presenting His perfect obedience and Death with its infinite merit before the Father in Heaven, and this merit needs not to be applied to any to effect its benefits, for it [Christ's Blood] has been applied to God's Law and Justice, By Christ Himself to sustain the propitiation. Remember He went as it were into the veil to apply His Blood before and Upon the mercy Seat Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Those who carelessly rush to 1 Jn 2:2 for a proof text for Christ dying for every human being without exception, have acted foolishly, for God cannot and will not execute wrath upon any whom Christ hath died, shed His Blood Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is, His Blood being a propitiation for our sins, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. False teachers will give an account for this their wresting of scripture in the Day of Judgment !

 

[ezra]

1 Jn 2:2 has been corrupted !


1 Jn 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is one verse the Antichrist crowd has hijacked to promote their false teaching. Christ our Propitiation or our satisfaction or our appeasing for our sins, before God's Law and Justice. How can any member of this world, that John is pointing out here, how can any member of it be under God's wrath and condemnation as per Jn 3:18,36 ?

For the world here is the world which Christ died for and therefore whose sins were never imputed to it 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Christ is continually being a propitiation for this World before God's Law and Justice, for He is it's Advocate ! The words He is in 1 Jn 2:2 are in the present tense, He is in a continual state presently being our Propitiation for our sins before God's Law and Justice, and against all accusations of the law, and the Devil and our enemies.

Christ has in fulfillment of the Type, offered Himself in dying, and then as our intercessor and advocate entered into within the veil, into Heaven itself, to present His Blood before God; To sprinkle it as it were on and before the Mercy Seat, and to present His Satisfaction or Propitiation continuously there for us, that is the Whole Elect World or Church for which He died ! Heb 8:1-2,6

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Now in propitiation Christ is presently, for all whom He died 1 Jn 2:2 ,presenting His perfect obedience and Death with its infinite merit before the Father in Heaven, and this merit needs not to be applied to any to effect its benefits, for it [Christ's Blood] has been applied to God's Law and Justice, By Christ Himself to sustain the propitiation. Remember He went as it were into the veil to apply His Blood before and Upon the mercy Seat Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Those who carelessly rush to 1 Jn 2:2 for a proof text for Christ dying for every human being without exception, have acted foolishly, for God cannot and will not execute wrath upon any whom Christ hath died, shed His Blood Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is, His Blood being a propitiation for our sins, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. False teachers will give an account for this their wresting of scripture in the Day of Judgment !

:yes:amen

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation as the Gift of God !


Salvation as the Gift of God is not something men get because of anything they did, like accepting a proposed offer, or because they believed or repent, but it is a Gift that is revealed to those for whom it has been accomplished for, it is revealed to them by the Gospel, Rom 1:16-17; The Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13. The Righteousness of God that is revealed from Faith to Faith is their Salvation, and its not because of their Faith, but it is revealed to their Faith; Also it can be very well stated Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the Salvation of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Because the Gospel is the Good News of their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So they believed the revealed fact of their Salvation by the Gospel !

So to all workmongers, Salvation is a matter of Revelation, and its not the result of something he does. Christ has done it all, and then it is revealed to them as a Gift !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Mans spiritual inability !


When scripture indicates that none can come to the Son except the Father draw him Jn 6:44, or that it must be given to come Jn 6:65, it means that one has to be given repentance of God Acts 11:18; 5:31, hence the coming to Christ to believe on Him is but EVIDENCE that God hath granted to one repentance, if we believed the Truth as an result, for both God given Faith and Repentance results in the acknowledging and embracing of the Truth 2 Tim 2:25

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Titus 1:1


Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

This is to acknowledge the Truth as it is in Christ, the Mystery of the Faith 1 Tim 3:9

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

The deep truths of the Gospel !

And the natural man cannot do that ?

 

[John O]

I popped back into the forum to see if there be any worthwhile Biblical discussion but sadly all I found was savedbygrace firmly stuck in the same discussion that he has been caught up in for the last few years. Now I don't have a problem with his opinion (even though I disagree with it) the problem is that he continually hijacks the thread until all it is about is this one point of contention.

I have no intention of trying to convince him to consider other opinions but the problem is that all his various threads all eventually lead back to this point and whenever someone looks to disagrees he copies and pastes large amounts of material and actually never enters into a discussion.

Moderator: You need to address this issue with savedbygrace as it distracts from all the potential enjoyment of a good discussion and study of the word of God. If you do not curb the stock cut and pasting of this individual no one will bother discussing anything as it will (it has already)become pointless.

John O

 

[Randy]

Salvation as the Gift of God !


Salvation as the Gift of God is not something men get because of anything they did, like accepting a proposed offer, or because they believed or repent, but it is a Gift that is revealed to those for whom it has been accomplished for, it is revealed to them by the Gospel,

The first covenant wasn't forced neither is the new covenant. (freewill) The gospel message isn't centered on God has already chosen who will be saved. The Gospel message is whoever calls on the Lord will be saved. So shouldn't you direct your message to pointing all to Christ for salvation for even if one believed in what you proclaim no one would know who was pre-chosen but God. Whoever calls on the Lord will be saved.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

I was steered to Jesus from my beginning from my mother and found Jesus (who does respond to a sincere faith in Him), to be the very much alive Christ and Son of living God.

So steer people to Jesus for life don't take hope away from people outside the faith with your message.

R.

 

[savedbygrace57]

randy

The first covenant wasn't forced neither is the new covenant

I have not mentioned about anything being forced, so could you please respond appropriately to posts 815 and 816 !

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Command to Repent ! -

Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When this command, order, charge of God goes out to every man that it is intended for, if the every man does not repent as God Commanded, then God's powerful word of Command has been defeated of its purpose, God's Word of Command has been made of no effect. However this cannot be the case because God's Word of Command always effects what He commands according to purpose. Those whom God purposes to believe the Gospel 2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In other words, if a man or woman personally commanded by God to repent, the chances of them not repenting are the same as those in Gen 1:3

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God said [commanded] let there be light, and the light refused to come into manifestation.

Speaking of Commanding His Purpose Ps 148:5

Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

How do you think one becomes a New Created Man ? Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.



Ps 33:9

For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Ps 105:8

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.


Ps 111:9

He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.

Ps 147:15

He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly.

Of the Command of Christ Mk 1:27

And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Notice the writer says with Authority Commandeth He and it produces obedience of the unclean spirits who we know had their own will Vs 24,25

Now the same word Authority is used of Christ when He sends His disciples out to teach all nations Matt 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So when the Disciples Preached Repentance in His Name it was in view of Christ Power or Authority producing the effects of Repentance, and Acts 17:30 is an opportunity for demonstration Christ's Authority in Commanding all men every where to Repent, those whom it was intended for did repent according to the Purpose of God, His Word of Command produces the desired result ! I know that unbelievers will not except this Truth !