Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[childeye]

=Former Christian;559857]Childeye


“I acknowledge the obvious discrepancies in the Bible. But I also acknowledge the obvious value of the Bible to those who are in Christ. To those who aren’t in Christ, the discrepancies take precedence. Whose side are you on?

I Love the scriptures as you might be aware I quote them constantly. They themselves declare that they are a testimony to the Word which is Spirit.

“I love humility and to think higher of everyone else. Are you jealous of that? You should be.”

Why should I be jealous of your pride in your humility?

My Humility comes form being humbled by God's doing, by seeing the Love that serves and loving it, so I cannot take credit.

Yet in all of that you still didn’t agree with me that I am in Christ.

I don't know I am saved FC. It is my hope that I will be. How can I say you are in Christ as an absolute when I am not sure enough to proclaim myself saved?

In person, you would make me angry. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

And what have I said that makes you angry?

You did not presume. You came to that position at one point.

If I came to that position it was predicated on something you said declaring you deny the Christ or that I mistook you as saying such.

Sometimes you say things that just don’t make any sense to me.

I am aware of this. that's why i said I wished I could talk in person.

Live long and prosper FC.

 

[Elijah674]

Back to the thread: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin! Personally speaking, I think that it is the other way around that is of the devil!
Here is a post from another site where a few do agree with God that we have been created with some non/robatic BRAINS.
_______________________

Hi, I don't think that a couple of these posts think(?) that God created 'thinking free morale agents' without a desire to worship something?? And the Holy Spirit after sin, was STRIVING to get the lost sinner [of mankind] to accept the 'EVERLASTING GOSPEL'! Gen. 6:3 & Rev. 14:6 which is Christ Eternally CENTERED.

Gods GRACE was not the issue in these few posts, as I read of it, they point out that it is always present. And with that, it is DOCUMENTED in Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 about that past satanic choice even! The Striving of the Holy Spirit came according to Paul's Inspired WORD FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF to the ones who had never even heard of Christ as we Know of His REQUIREMENTS!

The Rom. 2:14-15 Gentile ones were saved by finding God/Christ in His created nature while yielding to Christ's GRACE by 'yielding to Him' by His created nature! And yet, it was ETERNALLY CONDITIONAL as not the whole Gentile world did so!
--Elijah

 

[childeye]

Back to the thread: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin! Personally speaking, I think that it is the other way around that is of the devil!
Here is a post from another site where a few do agree with God that we have been created with some non/robatic BRAINS.
_______________________

Hi, I don't think that a couple of these posts think(?) that God created 'thinking free morale agents' without a desire to worship something?? And the Holy Spirit after sin, was STRIVING to get the lost sinner [of mankind] to accept the 'EVERLASTING GOSPEL'! Gen. 6:3 & Rev. 14:6 which is Christ Eternally CENTERED.

Gods GRACE was not the issue in these few posts, as I read of it, they point out that it is always present. And with that, it is DOCUMENTED in Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 about that past satanic choice even! The Striving of the Holy Spirit came according to Paul's Inspired WORD FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF to the ones who had never even heard of Christ as we Know of His REQUIREMENTS!

The Rom. 2:14-15 Gentile ones were saved by finding God/Christ in His created nature while yielding to Christ's GRACE by 'yielding to Him' by His created nature! And yet, it was ETERNALLY CONDITIONAL as not the whole Gentile world did so!
--Elijah

I would like to say that to believe in God is to know He sees all things. And this creates a relationship with our wills that is Spiritual in nature and brings forth honesty, the honest you, that God alone knows. Upon Eating the fruit we hid from Him.

Certainly His grace was always present in the sense that He was there in Truth.
You are correct to say we yield, since it is the Truth that we are forced to yield to upon seeing it. The brain is occupied by the mind and it is the renewing of the mind that the Truth accomplishes. Therefore coming out of ignorance we realize more than we choose to believe, we are convinced more than we have decided. One must be honest to have freedom. Personally this inspires humility in me.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“The bible did not exist in it's current form when the Gospel was first being preached. Many Gentiles come into the faith upon hearing the Gospel were neither educated in scripture, nor literate. Yet they believed through the testimony of others. This is hardly radical.â€

Catholic point of view. According to them, they gave us, not only the New Testament, but the whole Bible, and a few additional Old Testament books, through their authority to canonize.

If you want to go by historic Tradition, then the New Testament didn’t actually authoritatively exist until the latter part of the fifth century. They had the Old Testament, which must have been considered authoritative since the New Testament writers quote it. But they didn’t have an authoritative New Testament. Five hundred years is a long time to be without an authorized New Covenant Bible. But that’s man-made religion for you. Actually, the Bible as we have it today didn’t exist until after the era of the printing press, after the 16th century. And the Bible didn’t get into the hands of the common people until well into the nineteenth century. Doesn’t seem to have been of much benefit to them though, people who are denominationally minded to begin with. They just follow the interpretations of whatever denomination they’re a part of. Might as well not have a Bible if that’s all it’s going to amount to.

If you read the second century writers, you’ll find that they quote most of what we have as the New Testament. Personally, I believe the New Testament writings were commonly known and in use before the end of the 1st century. And I believe God did the canonizing, not a man-made religion. And the Spiritual gifts were in full function for the first couple of centuries at least. They should be today, and would be if the true nature of the ekklesia were known. Instead there are the denominations of Christianity, and the imitations of the spiritual gifts in Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement. Either we’re close to the end of an era or there isn’t anything to be an end of.

When the Bible was supposedly finally authorized in the fifth century, they were only determining the status of certain writings thought to be a part of the Bible, but were not. Interesting how they managed to formulate their version of the Trinitarian idea in the fourth century without an authorized New Testament.


“I Love the scriptures as you might be aware I quote them constantly. They themselves declare that they are a testimony to the Word which is Spirit.â€

What do you mean by “a testimony to the Word which is Spirit�


“I don't know I am saved FC. It is my hope that I will be. How can I say you are in Christ as an absolute when I am not sure enough to proclaim myself saved?â€

Lack of assurance of one’s salvation is a sign of the times. And another reason to believe we are close to the end of an era. The believers in the first century had no doubt and died with full assurance. And if the writings of the centuries immediately following are any indication, it was no different for them. That suggests that a lack of assurance of personal salvation may be indicative that there is no personal salvation to be assured of. Or it’s indicative of self-centeredness, relying on something of our own to Justify us.

One of the doctrines of Calvinism is perseverance of the saints or eternal security. All it says is that those who are truly elect will be saved in the end. But most who believe in eternal security use the idea as a means of personal assurance. That those who truly believe are the elect, meaning themselves, of course. And thus they are deceived into believing in the power of their own faith rather than in the sovereignty of God. How ironic.

The only thing that makes me doubt my own salvation is whether or not I’ll lose faith in the only tangible aspect of the faith I have left, which is the Bible. Christianity as a tangible is already gone for me.

Apparently, there is some radical interpretation that went on in the first century by the New Testament writers that I have only recently become aware of. And given my opposition to understanding the Bible through the practice of interpretation, that poses a very significant question.

I can believe that Christianity is a man-made religion and not lose faith in the Bible or the God it portrays. I can question historical doctrines, such as the three “orthodox†versions of the Trinity or the three ways of looking at Justification, and not lose faith in the Bible or in Jesus Christ as our mediator and our Justification. I can believe in a Bible that has discrepancies that can’t be interpreted into apparent oblivion. But I can’t believe in a new Testament that is the result of interpretation.

Peter certainly didn’t think that the Old Testament was the result of interpretation. And as near as I can tell, the histories and the prophets of the Old Testament merely applied the Law. They didn’t interpret it, as did the Jews in Jesus’ day. John claimed a first hand account that was not the result of interpretation. There’s no reason for the New Testament to be based on interpretation. They’re supposed to be eyewitness accounts of an existing reality and answers to degradations of that reality.

But there seems to be some interpretation, especially in Paul’s writings. Though Paul apparently wasn’t an eyewitness, he did claim to be taught by Jesus. I suppose that Paul would interpret the Old Testament really shouldn’t be surprising given he was educated as a first century Pharisee. And modern Judaism, which comes from the first century Pharisees, is a very interpretational religion. New Testament interpretation of the Old Testament would make the reason why Christianity is a man-made religion is the fact that the New Testament it is based on is just as man-made and must be interpreted to have any contemporary life at all.

The practice of “proper†Biblical interpretation doesn’t give the accurate meaning of a text, as Bible interpreters claim. Rather, it changes the text to mean whatever the interpreter wishes it to mean. Usually in keeping with a predetermined doctrinal schema or individual concept. Savedbygrace57 is a good example of a Bible interpreter. Some of his interpretations show changes that are obvious to everyone but himself. Such as changing “whole world†into “elect worldâ€. I don’t understand how people can talk themselves into such things, but that there are so many who do is a sign of the times as well.


“And what have I said that would make you angry?â€

Your Calvinistic tendencies for one. An inability to see the reality that is directly in front of you. To me that’s foolishness. And I can’t abide fools very well.

Maybe it’s just that you remind me of certain people and events in my past. Savedbygrace57 sure does. I did make an effort to talk to him at one point. And he made it very clear he didn’t even want me on his threads. I’m writing on one of his threads right now, which must irk him to no end. Of course, he’s an extreme case, and to him I am one of the Satanic people. I have to think that the only reason he’s kept around is because he generates controversy and a lot of threads. I know that not all monitors agree with his point of view.

And in keeping with this thread, I will never understand how people can be so confused about the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. As if the existence of one automatically means the non-existence of the other. That’s ludicrous to me.


May you also live long and prosper. Though I doubt if the Vulcan way would be an apt philosophy for one who believes himself to be a Christian. As interesting a philosophy as it is.

The philosophy was developed in three years time by writers and actors through the influence of one man, Gene Roddenberry. And though Roddenberry wasn’t against religion per se, he certainly didn’t have much use for Christianity. Hell is referred to as a fable once heard in childhood in his first pilot.

Originally, it was only a philosophy that included meditation and certain ideas, something on the order of early Buddhism. And a mere philosophy it was until the fifth movie that William Shatner directed and had a hand in writing (The Final Frontier). It hinted at an aspect of Vulcan philosophy that included the existence of a Supreme Being that didn’t exist in the original series.

And Vulcan philosophy included an element of ritual mysticism starting with the third movie (The Voyage Home) that didn’t exist in the original series either. I can imagine that the Protestants who equate mysticism in any form with occultism wouldn’t take to Vulcan philosophy very well.

I like the Vulcan idea of the IDIC or “Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinationsâ€, created by Roddenberry for the second or third season of the original series. It’s considered the cornerstone of Vulcan philosophy (no doubt to ease their warlike tendencies), and refers to a tolerance toward all peoples and ideas to help create a society that is greater than the sum of its parts. And there are no more warlike peoples on earth than Christians, who continue to fight physically and to fight amongst themselves over every conceivable doctrine. The IDIC reflects my own understanding that all who are in Christ should keep the unity of the Spirit, rather than unity in denominational doctrines. An understanding considered by most Christians to be a form of Christian Relativism.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Elijah674

People who have cheese for brains are easy to control. People who are led to believe that their destiny is intended to be controlled are just as easy to control. Serfdom anyone? The idea of controlled cultism didn’t start recently. John Calvin and his followers would be considered a cult today, if it weren’t for a quirk of history. You should read about the goings on in Geneva when Calvin was there. It’s easy to get caught up in cultic thinking. I was there once. But I’m proof that they can’t fool all of the people all of the time.

I have to wonder what “quench not the Spirit†means to those who think we’re forced by God’s choice into being in Christ, and forced into hard labor after we’re in Christ. Wouldn’t that be impossible?

FC

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Antichrist freewill religions exalts the will of the creature into the place of the Creator, making the will of God subject to the will of man the creature, which is Blasphemy, it makes the Eternal Purpose of God subject to man's will as this implies 2 Thess 2:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Thats right, when we make God's will subject to the will of the creature, we are setting in the temple saying " I am God" I determine my destiny, not God.

This Antichrist spirit makes Salvation [Which is to the Glory of God] dependent upon mans will, it makes men feel good about themselves, to trust in himself and his abilities.

 

[childeye]

“And what have I said that would make you angry?â€

Your Calvinistic tendencies for one. An inability to see the reality that is directly in front of you. To me that’s foolishness. And I can’t abide fools very well.

FC, I told you I am not a Calvinist. What reality am I unaware of? Please elaborate. I believe in God as Love, Jesus as the True Image of God. These are realities to me.

 

[n2thelight]

This is why I believe this is True !

2 Thess 2:1-4

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Isa 14:13-14

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Man's own freewill by far is the most believed and popular religious conviction throughout the whole world. Rev 13:1;5-8

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's adherents are linked to all the various denominations, and sects, yes, even the non religious adhere to man's freewill.

So John writes Rev 13:16

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

That is all follow this deadly concept or philosophy of man's freewill !

If man has no freewill,whats the purpose?

 

[Vic C.]

Elijah674

People who have cheese for brains are easy to control. People who are led to believe that their destiny is intended to be controlled are just as easy to control. Serfdom anyone? The idea of controlled cultism didn’t start recently. John Calvin and his followers would be considered a cult today, if it weren’t for a quirk of history. You should read about the goings on in Geneva when Calvin was there. It’s easy to get caught up in cultic thinking. I was there once. But I’m proof that they can’t fool all of the people all of the time.

I have to wonder what “quench not the Spirit†means to those who think we’re forced by God’s choice into being in Christ, and forced into hard labor after we’re in Christ. Wouldn’t that be impossible?

FC

I used to believe much of Calvinism, then I rebelled.

A former member and acquaintance of mine once said to me, "find me one person who went into salvation kicking and screaming." ;)

The more I mature in my faith and understanding, the more I tend to lean on some of those Calvinistic beliefs again. It has nothing to do with having cheese for brains. It has everything to do with conceding to the fact that God is God and is going to do things that we mere mortals just don't understand this side of life.

Who can say with absolute certainty that they understand God's purpose for doing what He does? We are all destined to an eternity void of God, for all have sinned and have fallen short of His glory. Is it beyond God to will another fate for some of us? Is he obligated to save any of us from the fate of eternal separation?

We must deal with this, trust in God and let Him deal with the finer points of His eternal plan.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[MarkT]

People who have cheese for brains are easy to control. People who are led to believe that their destiny is intended to be controlled are just as easy to control. Serfdom anyone? The idea of controlled cultism didn’t start recently. John Calvin and his followers would be considered a cult today, if it weren’t for a quirk of history. You should read about the goings on in Geneva when Calvin was there. It’s easy to get caught up in cultic thinking. I was there once. But I’m proof that they can’t fool all of the people all of the time.

I have to wonder what “quench not the Spirit” means to those who think we’re forced by God’s choice into being in Christ, and forced into hard labor after we’re in Christ. Wouldn’t that be impossible?

If God gave them cheese for brains, then they would be easy to control. See, here it is up to God. He makes men for his purpose. But why would he give some men cheese for brains? Well, he does it because they are not his people. But regardless, this bears on the question of free will.

Let’s say God put everything into the physical body that makes you you. He gives you a human spirit, human intelligence, human ability. Each man is made individually. We’re not all the same. We are individuals.

Einstein, for example, was a smart man (for a human). But Einstein didn’t choose to be smart. He didn’t choose his abilities. He was born with his abilities. When it came to physics, he was gifted. But the point is God made him. He raised Einstein for his purpose.

If God poured mercy into the human body, the man would be merciful. If God poured kindness into the body, the man would be kind. See it is not up to man.

If God gives some men a believing heart, for example, and not others, it is because it is his will. It is his will that his friends know what he is doing, and it is his will that his enemies do not. He doesn’t tell his enemies what he is doing. In their minds, they are doing whatever. They don’t know God has made them to be destroyed.

God doesn’t control the mind. He doesn’t control our mind. He doesn’t control their minds. God controls the step.

When we speak of the mind, we are speaking of something ancient. It’s a mysterious thing, but we are ancient compared to our physical body. In a sense our soul is ancient, or, to put it another way, eternal.

The ones who rebelled against God in the beginning are his enemies. We did not. We are his friends. And God lets us see who they are. I mean he lets his sheep see who they are.

We are born of the Spirit of God. I mean his sheep are. We receive the gifts of the Spirit because we are born again. When we were born as men are born, God gave us a believing heart and an understanding spirit. When we were born again, God gave us his Spirit.

So you can say, like Einstein, we are gifted. But I don’t mean gifted with a greater human intelligence like Einstein. I mean we are gifted with the Spirit of God. Our intelligence and abilities far surpass the greatest human intelligence. We have the mind of Christ.

So none of the things we are born with are a matter of choice. If you want to argue that you can choose to believe, fine. I’m not going to argue. Let it be settled in your own minds so that we can see who is of God; who has the Spirit of God and who does not. If there is kindness in you, and you choose to be unkind, then again, it is your own mind. You can think what you want.

 

[MarkT]

Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

This teaching of man's freewill in the matter of Salvation is not just of those who loudly proclaim it, but even to those in the reformed faiths, who in the final analysis, make faith and or repentance, the basis for a man's Justification before God. Even if it is supposedly God given Faith. Hence any that attribute any part of Justification in part or in whole to what man does is an Idolater and it does not matter who it is and what their credentials or reputation may be. Even though they may say the right things , like salvation by grace, election and new birth, yet they worship themselves, mans freewill ultimately is what determines if one is saved or lost, what man does or not do, it never fails. When all is said and done, freewill religionists makes man his own savior, and that is what I believe the text is saying, it is the exaltation of man. Freewill religion is a form of will worship as per Col 2:23

23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

This will worship is ethelothrēskia and it means:


voluntary, arbitrary worship

a) worship which one prescribes and devises for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of faith which ought to be directed to Christ

b) said of the misdirected zeal and the practice of ascetics

Its self made religion, not according to Faith and what has been revealed.

This is the religion of cain. Cain instead of by Faith making an offering to God that was accepted, he instead, did what he thought or believed to be acceptable to God. It was his own self made worship, and no doubt done in sincerity and his best the fruit of the ground could offer. This is exactly what the freewillers are doing today, rejecting the revelation of scripture of how Justification and Salvation is wrought by the lamb of God, and do that which is right in their own eyes. Prov 14:22

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

There own self made religions, why you think its so many different suasions ?

Will worship is also the worship of ourselves. Did not The serpent tell Eve, that she could be as God !! Gen 3:5

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Ambition, to be as God. cp Isa 14:14

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yes, this is what fuels freewill religion ! The word God in Gen 3:5 is the same exact word as in Gen 1:1

Satan was telling eve she could be, what he himself desired to be, like the Most High !

While I agree with much of what you said about ambition, I disagree with your statement that teaching freewill makes man an idolater. An Idolater is someone who makes graven images and statues. There might be some who think they chose God, but it doesn't mean they are worshipping themselves, although there is a measure of rebellion and ambition there. I know it's their way or the highway no matter what Jesus said.

I would say it means they are ignorant and to some extent misled. Some do make statues but many don't. I'm not sure I would call a crucifix a graven image. But I suppose images of Jesus and angels and God would count as being graven images. I can see where you can make an association with those who believe in freewill and their doings, but I can't see how you can link faith and justification with the teaching of freewill.

As for faith and justification, I would say even the serpents came out to be baptised by John. They didn't believe Jesus, but it seems they were all for John's baptism - maybe to make a show of piety.

But you say it (salvation) doesn't depend on them. I agree. I would say it depends on us. We are emissaries of God. I think it is literally possible that we, the sheep, can change other people's destiny. Otherwise why would the Spirit have us try to change men's minds? I'm not saying we can change our own destiny, but I think we can change other people's destiny. I don't think just anybody can do it (turn behemoth), but I think there are some people who can change the destiny of some who are meant for destruction, provided they believe. Is God therefore a God of second chances? I think so. God is just.

So let's make an appeal to the minds of men, whoever they are, as Jesus did. If God has given men a measure of faith so that they can come to their senses, then so be it. If the word that comes by us is met with faith in them, then we might be able to save some of them.

As for the teachers of freewill, the theologians, I would not listen to them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Blasphemy of universal atonement !

Rev 13:1

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Why I believe universal atonement is blasphemy against Christ. If Christ's death is universal, meaning that He died for all without exception, then His death in and of itself, cannot be effectual to any He died for. This lie is actually telling sinners that Christ saves, but at the same time tells them His death alone cannot save you [Which is lie 1 Pet 2:24] ! You see the problem here ? This false notion also means that Christ's death does no more for saved sinners in heaven, than it does for sinners who are eternally damned. What this logically boils down to is that the sinner himself gives the efficacious saving value to the death of Christ ! This teaching is against Christ. This teaching is blasphemy.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Blasphemy of Faith !

I know thats a odd title, but perhaps the deadliest blasphemy in religion today is that of the perversion of Faith. Most in organized religion today have crowned faith or the act of believing as their saviour. Their faith speaks loud and clear as a witness, that Christ death alone has no power to save a sinner from their lost condition. It is their act of believing or faith that finally appeased God on their behalf and not solely the Blood of Christ ! For this act of believing is setup next to Christ. Faith or the act of believing is their ground of salvation and not the imputed righteousness of Christ which is revealed to Faith. Their Faith and not the blood of Christ makes them right with God, and so this must be seen as a damnable heresy, denying the very Lord who supposedly bought them. 2 Pet 2:1

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“I told you I am not a Calvinist. What reality am I unaware of? Please elaborate. I believe in God as Love, Jesus as the True Image of God. These are realities to me.â€

Whatever. It’s really unimportant. We’re not going to meet in person. Let us move on.

I too believe that God is love. (1 John 4:8, 16) I too believe that Jesus is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:1-4, Col 1:15) But I also believe that the human male is the image of God and the woman the image of the man. (1 Cor 11:7) And the difference is in the perfection and currently glorified state of Jesus, in whom we hope to attain also. (1 Cor 15:45-50)

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Vic C

“The more I mature in my faith and understanding, the more I tend to lean on some of those Calvinistic beliefs again.â€

Sorry to hear that.


“It has nothing to do with having cheese for brains.â€

I’m sorry if you thought I was referring to you specifically. It was a generalization. It’s the rest of the paragraph you should think about if you’re heading back the way you came.


“Who can say with absolute certainty that they understand God's purpose for doing what He does? We are all destined to an eternity void of God, for all have sinned and have fallen short of His glory. Is it beyond God to will another fate for some of us? Is he obligated to save any of us from the fate of eternal separation?â€

We can’t understand the ways of God. That’s sure. But we are capable of understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible. Why else would God have bothered to give us a Bible?

It tells us that everyone is condemned, as you said. And, as you said, God isn’t obligated to do anything on our behalf. He could have just let matters ride and watch us all fall into the pits of hell, or whatever. It would have been no problem for God to start over on another created planet, in another created solar system, with another created race of beings.

Instead the Bible tells us, and I think it’s the chief reason God gave us the Bible, that God had no choice but to act in a certain way. God acted out of love. For the whole world, not the elect world, as Savedbygrace57 is determined to believe. God acted in a certain way because God is love. God wants all to be saved, God doesn’t want anyone to parish. (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9) If God is choosing who will be saved, and consequently who will be lost, then that defeats his own purpose. And Paul never said that God is choosing us independently.

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.†(Eph 1:4 NASB)

What does it say? We have been chosen before the foundation of the world. No! It says we have been chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world. We’re not the elect on our own. We’re not specially chosen individuals. Jesus is the elect. Jesus is the chosen one. And we’re elect, we’re chosen, in him.

“He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will†(v. 5)

What does it say? God predestined us to adoption as sons to himself. No! God predestined us to adoption as sons THROUGH JESUS CHRIST to himself. We are predestined through Jesus Christ.

And in addition it says that we’re predestined according to the kind intention of his will. Some emphasize the words “his willâ€. They emphasize the sovereignty of God because of these two words. And it’s a reference to same. But they totally miss something very significant due to their emphasis. The words “kind intention†according to the NASB. Or “good pleasure†according to the KJV. In the Greek, this literally means “good thinking†or “good thoughtsâ€. Consider that. The good thoughts of the will of God. According to the good thinking of the will of God. We are predestined according to the good thinking of the will of God. Through Jesus Christ, to himself, according to the good thinking of the will of God.

For the Calvinist, the emphasis is on the sovereignty of God and our election by the choice of God. The Bible emphasizes the sovereignty of God and our election in Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God.

The elect includes all who are part of the new creation in Christ:

“Therefore, if anyone is IN CHRIST, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.†(2 Cor 5:17-19 NKJV)

The only way to be in Christ is to believe into Christ, that is, believe God and what he has revealed to us. (John 3:16-18 Literal, Rom 4) And then as we do the work of our faith, that is, be baptized by water, we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ, into the Body of Christ. (Rom 6, 1 Cor 12:13) Some say that water baptism is just a Tradition. Though I can’t put my finger on specific references, my opinion is that it’s a legitimate work of our faith into Christ.

God reveals. We choose whether or not to believe God and what God reveals. People choose to believe or not to believe for all kinds of reasons. That isn’t the point. The point is that they choose. Sometimes God is the hound of heaven. Sometimes God gives them up to their own desires. That too isn’t the point. The point is that whatever state they end up in, it was their own choice. Not, I repeat not, the choice of God. If God chooses some to be elect, then automatically he chooses the rest to their fate. That isn’t just an expression of sovereignty. It’s an expression of despotism. But God isn’t a despot. He’s a God who loves mankind. Enough to send his only begotten Son to die on behalf of mankind.

Mankind isn’t just some plaything for God. Created on a whim. “Hey guys, let’s create some bipeds with some intelligence just for fun, and watch them blow themselves and their planet to smithereens. Ha ha ha ha ha, chortle.†Sorry, I’m being facetious. But some people seem to think that, though not out loud.

It’s my opinion that God loves mankind because of relationship. Mankind is created in the image and likeness of God. According to Genesis 2:7, God put a part of himself into Adam resulting in Adam becoming a living soul. And in that sense, mankind is related to God. Which to me, explains why God desires to save all of mankind, and desires none to perish. But some choose, for whatever reason, or simply due to neglect, to perish.

Reading the Bible through the lens of Calvinism, the Bible is distorted. Just as is reading the Bible through the lens of Arminianism, the Bible is distorted. Just as is reading the Bible through the lens of Catholicism, the Bible is distorted.

“But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus†(Eph 4:20-21 NASB)

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.... Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you†(Col 3:1, 16 NASB)

Our only teacher is Jesus Christ. When we understand the Bible through the lens of an ism, we’re following men. In a practical sense, we’re following another Jesus, not Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Not John Wesley. Not the Pope of Rome. And certainly not the unrepentant murderer John Calvin, who tried to make himself more God than man by emphasizing his own importance by claiming that he was one of the chosen ones, specially elected by God. Whether or not what Calvin taught is from Satan isn’t relevant. What is relevant is that John Calvin chose to teach it and to live it. Martin Luther taught that we are Justified by our own faith alone, and, in a practical sense, denied thereby that the letter of James is a part of the Bible. That was bad enough. What John Calvin taught was far worse because he denied that mankind was a special creation of God by denying that God loved all of mankind equally without reservation, without choosing favorites.

All of mankind is special to God. So special that God sent his own special Son, his only begotten Son, to be a propitiation for them all (1 John 2:1-2). We are elect in that one who is special, Jesus Christ. And all who choose to believe upon Jesus Christ will NOT be ashamed. Those who choose not to, will be ashamed.

“for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." †(Rom 10:13 NIV)

If calling was just by a special faith given by God, then what would be the purpose of even putting this sentence in the letter? We wouldn’t have any choice but to automatically call. The fact that this sentence is here shows that it is our choice to call. So also the context. God gives us the information we need, and the intention is that we respond. In a much deeper way than on or off.

Calvin wrote a book the size of the Bible. Having once been a Calvinist, I had a copy. I threw it out. I had a copy of the works of John Wesley. I threw it out. I had a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I threw it out. I had Systematic Theologies by many Protestant authors. I threw them out. I had several hymnals. I threw them out. Why should I continue to read Bibles written by men? Don’t need, don’t want, more than one Bible. Only one Bible counts in the end. The Bible that God gave us.

FC

 

[childeye]

If man has no freewill,whats the purpose?

To create children of God.

 

[jasoncran]

To create children of God.

huh? i didnt get the whole conservation. but to disciple or to have kids.

 

[Elijah674]

Let me say this lovingly. 'i' see this kind of 'post heading' with the originator of the post at the present time, with a real Jer. 17:5 SERIOUS problem! Some verses include Eccl. 3:14 + Rev. 22 last couple verses of warning!

--Elijah

Me again with just a little more! It is interesting with these OSAS ones teaching against the Lord giving mankind free choice & then they freely 'choose' to teach the below lies! (of satan on immortal sinners in hell never dieing)

Deut. 30 and the Lords Word of Free Choice:
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20] That [thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice], and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And who believes God? But few! Matt. 7's BROADWAY + ALL of the Rev. 17:5 ones 'teach' that they are to be saved as they still are.. [AS SINNERS!]

Josh. 24
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
[16] And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

And these above Matt. & Rev. today ones???


Gen. 3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And all of these 'ones' that teach against free choice?? Freely teach That God lied & satan is to be believed! [[SICK!]]

But God has TWICE said:

Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

+

Eccl. 3
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

And some of these one's say.. 'I am full' of these Inspired Words of God! (bottom/line!)

Now, you tell God who is sinning the Great Transgression with this 'anti/christ' stuff??


---Elijah

 

[childeye]

Me again with just a little more! It is interesting with these OSAS ones teaching against the Lord giving mankind free choice & then they freely 'choose' to teach the below lies! (of satan on immortal sinners in hell never dieing)

Deut. 30 and the Lords Word of Free Choice:
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[20] That [thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice], and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And who believes God? But few! Matt. 7's BROADWAY + ALL of the Rev. 17:5 ones 'teach' that they are to be saved as they still are.. [AS SINNERS!]

Josh. 24
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
[16] And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

And these above Matt. & Rev. today ones???


Gen. 3
[1] Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And all of these 'ones' that teach against free choice?? Freely teach That God lied & satan is to be believed! [[SICK!]]

But God has TWICE said:

Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

+

Eccl. 3
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

And some of these one's say.. 'I am full' of these Inspired Words of God! (bottom/line!)

Now, you tell God who is sinning the Great Transgression with this 'anti/christ' stuff??


---Elijah

You need to reread your scripture for Joshua says "but you can't serve the lord for he will destroy you in your sins". Do you honestly believe there is no spiritual war happening? That because men have brains and choose there are no spirits that deceive men? You gave me a scripture once that said, go out and find any who care about all the wrong that is going on in the kingdom and put a mark upon them. Those who are marked are those who have love. Can't you see that? Are you saying men have the ability to not sin apart from Christ?

 

[Elijah674]

You need to reread your scripture for Joshua says "but you can't serve the lord for he will destroy you in your sins". Do you honestly believe there is no spiritual war happening? That because men have brains and choose there are no spirits that deceive men? You gave me a scripture once that said, go out and find any who care about all the wrong that is going on in the kingdom and put a mark upon them. Those who are marked are those who have love. Can't you see that? Are you saying men have the ability to not sin apart from Christ?

No, 'i' never have said that, but man was created in the image of God with the brain free choice to make decisions at the start. The proof was that Adam blew it, but even then after he sined he again made the free choice to accept the Eternal Plan of Salvation with the Promise that [IF] he did, Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 were assured. But still [ONLY] if the [Eternal CONDITIONS] were met!

And the Joshua scripture? Give the chapter & verse & perhaps it was posted wrong? And Surely Eph. 6:12 finds the Christian of mankind in a war with satan & his earthly 'desired' crew! Gen. 4:7

--Elijah

PS: Go back and re/read the Josh. verses. They are quoted correctly!