Futurist vs Preterist debate

[JohnD]

So there are daily sacrifices in the Temple?

There will be.

Until May 1948 many pulpits resounded with the cry that Israel will never be a nation again! Chiefest among them were Preterists. When you get to the heart of Preterism you will find the antisemitic teaching of replacement theology.

So, when the Bible teaches there is a standing temple and daily sacrifices in it in the last days, then you can deduce two things...

1. it will happen
2. in the future because it is not currently so

Another telltale sign of Preterism is the plea to one's reason rather than the biblical illumination (Isaiah 28:9-13 etc.) saying "look outside the widow do you see a temple? are there sacrifices going on now? then Preterism must be true."

 

[JohnD]

Yoda is a wise old character in Star Wars. His speech order is grammatically incorrect for English. Sometimes the YLT's order, because it is a direct translation, can sound like Yoda speaks. One of our members pointed that out to me.
lol. Sometimes my grandson speaks Yoda speech, too.

smile

 

[Deborah13]

There will be.

Until May 1948 many pulpits resounded with the cry that Israel will never be a nation again! Chiefest among them were Preterists. When you get to the heart of Preterism you will find the antisemitic teaching of replacement theology.

So, when the Bible teaches there is a standing temple and daily sacrifices in it in the last days, then you can deduce two things...

1. it will happen
2. in the future because it is not currently so

Another telltale sign of Preterism is the plea to one's reason rather than the biblical illumination (Isaiah 28:9-13 etc.) saying "look outside the widow do you see a temple? are there sacrifices going on now? then Preterism must be true."

I guess I am a partial in the past believer.
But what you have said about preterism does not fit what I believe, especially replacement theology.
Besides that which form of replacement theology are you speaking of ? What is your definition because there is more than one belief within what is called replacement theology.

 

[ezrider]

There will be.

Until May 1948 many pulpits resounded with the cry that Israel will never be a nation again! Chiefest among them were Preterists. When you get to the heart of Preterism you will find the antisemitic teaching of replacement theology.

So, when the Bible teaches there is a standing temple and daily sacrifices in it in the last days, then you can deduce two things...

1. it will happen
2. in the future because it is not currently so

Another telltale sign of Preterism is the plea to one's reason rather than the biblical illumination (Isaiah 28:9-13 etc.) saying "look outside the widow do you see a temple? are there sacrifices going on now? then Preterism must be true."

John, you said you could deduce two things; what is the second? It appears as thought you deduced that it will happen because it is in the future. You have not given me two thought to consider.

Here are a few thought that you might consider.

1). I will happen in the future because the Lord has determined it to be yet to our future, and thus it certainly will happen; or else we do not understand the scripture as we should.

2). It has happened in the past because the Lord has already fulfilled its promise unto us, and thus is it in the past; or else we do not understand the scripture as we should.

 

[ezrider]

smile

In all of the debate I cant seem to recall, but what is it that you are waiting for?

 

[JohnD]

I guess I am a partial in the past believer.
But what you have said about preterism does not fit what I believe, especially replacement theology.
Besides that which form of replacement theology are you speaking of ? What is your definition because there is more than one belief within what is called replacement theology.

Okay.

The reason the Preterist believes that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the great tribulation Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24... despite the language Jesus used about it being as never before or since... plus the fact that 586 BCE was an exact duplicate to that destruction and on the same calendar date... is that God in 70 CE was turning his back on Jews / Israel.

God never has (Romans 11:23).

He never will (Jeremiah 31:35-36).

And in fact, for there to even be a great tribulation that is yet future... the purpose of it is to create the armageddon scenario wherein the surviving Jews cry out to Jesus as a last resort since nothing else has worked. The Hosanna psalms are pleas for safety and salvation and deliverance Hosanna (hosha nah = save now) and echo the very root meaning of Jesus' name yeHOSHua Hosha Nah Yehoshua HaMoshiakh!

 

[ezrider]

The reason the Preterist believes that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the great tribulation Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24... despite the language Jesus used about it being as never before or since... plus the fact that 586 BCE was an exact duplicate to that destruction and on the same calendar date... is that God in 70 CE was turning his back on Jews / Israel.

By 586 BCE I am assuming you to be referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Judgement of God by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians. This being an exact duplicate of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Judgement of God by the hand of the Roman army.

You are aware that Jerusalem was only to receive a double portion for Her sins; and that she has been Judged and laid waste twice already? God hath established His Kingdom according to the covenant of His Promise in the Name of Christ, and His covenant is an everlasting covenant of peace in the which He swore upon Himself that He would no more be wroth with us, and that His wrath would be withheld, as he promised that the water of Noah should no more cover the earth. Through His blood upon the cross Christ has established the New Covenant and the inheritance of His Kingdom and has annulled your covenant with death.

The Lord hath given you Salvation, so why do you look for His Wrath?

 

[Deborah13]

Okay.

The reason the Preterist believes that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the great tribulation Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24... despite the language Jesus used about it being as never before or since... plus the fact that 586 BCE was an exact duplicate to that destruction and on the same calendar date... is that God in 70 CE was turning his back on Jews / Israel.

God never has (Romans 11:23).

He never will (Jeremiah 31:35-36).

And in fact, for there to even be a great tribulation that is yet future... the purpose of it is to create the armageddon scenario wherein the surviving Jews cry out to Jesus as a last resort since nothing else has worked. The Hosanna psalms are pleas for safety and salvation and deliverance Hosanna (hosha nah = save now) and echo the very root meaning of Jesus' name yeHOSHua Hosha Nah Yehoshua HaMoshiakh!

Well, I have much more confidence in the power of the saving grace of God and the Word of God and the prompting of the Holy Spirit than you do.
My goodness, just in Elijah time there was a remnant never mind all the other years before the cross and all the Israelites that have been saved since the cross. I would imagine that they cannot be counted.

I don't believe that 70 CE was God turning His back on Israel or Judea. Surely it was judgement and He put an end to the Mosaic system by taking away the daily sacrifices making that covenant obsolete.

 

[reba]

There will be.

Until May 1948 many pulpits resounded with the cry that Israel will never be a nation again! Chiefest among them were Preterists. When you get to the heart of Preterism you will find the antisemitic teaching of replacement theology.

So, when the Bible teaches there is a standing temple and daily sacrifices in it in the last days, then you can deduce two things...

1. it will happen
2. in the future because it is not currently so

Another telltale sign of Preterism is the plea to one's reason rather than the biblical illumination (Isaiah 28:9-13 etc.) saying "look outside the widow do you see a temple? are there sacrifices going on now? then Preterism must be true."

There will be.

Why for what purpose...

I am not antisemitic... nor do i abide in the replacement theology ... Yet you would label me a preterist. and you speak as if know what i believe, you are mistaken...

 

[JohnD]

Why for what purpose...

I am not antisemitic... nor do i abide in the replacement theology ... Yet you would label me a preterist. and you speak as if know what i believe, you are mistaken...

I am not labeling you. I am pointing out what Preterism is.

When pressed, Preterists apply 70 CE to Matthew 24:21 using antisemitism conclusions to distinguish it from 586 BCE.

 

[jasonc]

Okay.

The reason the Preterist believes that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the great tribulation Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24... despite the language Jesus used about it being as never before or since... plus the fact that 586 BCE was an exact duplicate to that destruction and on the same calendar date... is that God in 70 CE was turning his back on Jews / Israel.

God never has (Romans 11:23).

He never will (Jeremiah 31:35-36).

And in fact, for there to even be a great tribulation that is yet future... the purpose of it is to create the armageddon scenario wherein the surviving Jews cry out to Jesus as a last resort since nothing else has worked. The Hosanna psalms are pleas for safety and salvation and deliverance Hosanna (hosha nah = save now) and echo the very root meaning of Jesus' name yeHOSHua Hosha Nah Yehoshua HaMoshiakh!

the Hebrew word that is used for Messiah is not Hamashiac but Moshiac. they know that it wasn't originally that but since Christians use that word they changed that. Yeshu is what they called Jesus. Yeshua is normally our Joshua, of course there are the variations.

I really need to learn my Language of origins.

 

[jasonc]

since im a partial preterist. im also a jew. does that mean that I hate myself?

 

[JohnD]

I dunno, JasonC.

Do you believe God turned his back on your people?

 

[JohnD]

the Hebrew word that is used for Messiah is not Hamashiac but Moshiac. they know that it wasn't originally that but since Christians use that word they changed that. Yeshu is what they called Jesus. Yeshua is normally our Joshua, of course there are the variations.

I really need to learn my Language of origins.

Yeshu is a derogatory name.

Yeshua Y'shua short for Yehoshua = Joshua Jesus even Jesse other variations include Hoshea (Hosea) and Isaiah (Yeshayahu) Yah is savior / savior Yah that sort of thing.

Moshiakh / Mashiach / Messiah Christ

Spelling is not that critical. As in Tanach / Tanakh.

Ha is merely "the" as in the Moshiakh HaMoshiakh

I have done origin language study for many years, my friend.

 

[JohnD]

Well, I have much more confidence in the power of the saving grace of God and the Word of God and the prompting of the Holy Spirit than you do.
My goodness, just in Elijah time there was a remnant never mind all the other years before the cross and all the Israelites that have been saved since the cross. I would imagine that they cannot be counted.

I don't believe that 70 CE was God turning His back on Israel or Judea. Surely it was judgement and He put an end to the Mosaic system by taking away the daily sacrifices making that covenant obsolete.

Than me???

I explained what Preterists believe. Which you claim to believe.

Consult your own theology. I think you are in for some surprises if not shock.

 

[JohnD]

Matthew 24:21 (AV)
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
70 CE destruction of Temple and Jerusalem simply cannot fit this mold.

When pressed, a champion of Preterism stated that it was God's turning away from Israel for rejecting his Son that made the destruction in 70 CE different than in 586 BCE.

 

[reba]

I am not labeling you. I am pointing out what Preterism is.

Full pretersim is not promoted on this site...per the ToS.. Your views are what you believe preterism to be,,,,
Please remember when folks here are discussing the topic not one is a full preterist..

 

[JohnD]

Uh, is this Mod-Reba speaking?

 

[reba]

Nope just a member

 

[JohnD]

Oh. Okay.

I believe you'll find when pressed this is what Partial Preterism believes as well.

And I am not saying you guys absolutely believe this. I am saying I doubt you realize what Preterism in any form is really all about. And it may be an insistence on my part, but it is always from a loving Christian brother to you my Christian brethren and cistern (LOL).