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Futurist vs Preterist debate

Have it your way.... I will never again believe The Body of Christ was second choice. or plan 'B'.. Nor will i believe the The Body (or Church ) will fail... I do not believe Jesus misspoke when he said "this generation" .. I believe His Sacrifice to be the 'center' not His second coming...


Member reba...
 
The scenario Jesus is speaking of which pierces through the conversational setting of "the temple complex" after he said it will be thrown down (which did happen in 70 CE and the plowing under of Jerusalem in 135 CE) to a time when the false prophet and the beast will plow with the Lord's heifer.

Daniel 9:24–27 (AV)
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Covenant, many mix down to mean a peace treaty, is actually THE Covenant (which in other places in Daniel is referred to as the holy covenant). The term antichrist has become so familiar as to have lost its true meaning in the original Hebrew way of thinking rather the false messiah. The false messiah will convince the many (worldwide except for believers indwelt by the Spirit of God see Matthew 24:24) that he is the real Christ and that Jesus was a hoax, an imposter.

Revelation 13:1–10 (AV)
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The chapter opens with his standing on the sand by the sea.

Genesis 22:16–18 (AV)
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Stars of the heavens = Abraham's spiritual heirs (Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus)
Sand by the seashore = Abraham's physical heir (people born Jewish)

Jesus warned:

Matthew 24:15–20 (AV)
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Sabbath day?

In all Jewish history keeping sabbath never impeded fight or flight. On the sabbath day the Jews marched around Jericho six more times than the previous days that week and when the walls fell they charged in!

So what was Jesus getting at?

If while in Judea you see these things happen... run! And the only way sabbath law would hinder you is if the Jewish law was in full force and they who were in charge of enforcing sabbath law saw no problem whatever with the beast ascending to temple mount to desecrate the holiest of places by sitting atop the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant and claiming to be God.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–4 (AV)
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

No Roman general or anyone else ever fulfilled this.

So to believe it is already passed and fulfilled is to render these and many other verses meaningless.
 
So to believe it is already passed and fulfilled is to render these and many other verses meaningless.

So you must believe the Old Testament is meaning less... member reba
 
Than me???

I explained what Preterists believe. Which you claim to believe.

Consult your own theology. I think you are in for some surprises if not shock.
My beliefs are my beliefs. I don't have to believe what you claim someone else believes. I can't help what they may believe.
Full preterism says all things are past, I don't believe that either.
Do all born again Christians believe OSAS? Nope.
Do you believe the same thing that every other follower of Christ believes? Bet you don't. :wink

One reason I believe that Matt 24 is talking about 70 CE is I think when He said, this generation, He meant it.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass.
 
Have it your way.... I will never again believe The Body of Christ was second choice. or plan 'B'.. Nor will i believe the The Body (or Church ) will fail... I do not believe Jesus misspoke when he said "this generation" .. I believe His Sacrifice to be the 'center' not His second coming...


Member reba...

I am not certain from where you get this...

Known to God from the beginning were all who would believe.

The Church (the Great Assembly = ekklesia) is in other places in the Bible referred to as klal yisro'el (all Israel or rather fullest Israel).

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This spiritual distinction from the physical goes back at least as far as:

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

And in fact was the distinction between the sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers) in Israel:

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And we Gentiles by birth are grafted into which Olive Tree? Physical or Spiritual (Romans 11:16-26)?

And so ALL Israel (that believing Jews and Gentiles) will be saved.

There's no plan B or second choice at all. We are not second class citizens in heaven...

Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
So there are daily sacrifices in the Temple?

There will be.

Until May 1948 many pulpits resounded with the cry that Israel will never be a nation again! Chiefest among them were Preterists. When you get to the heart of Preterism you will find the antisemitic teaching of replacement theology.

So, when the Bible teaches there is a standing temple and daily sacrifices in it in the last days, then you can deduce two things...

1. it will happen
2. in the future because it is not currently so

Another telltale sign of Preterism is the plea to one's reason rather than the biblical illumination (Isaiah 28:9-13 etc.) saying "look outside the widow do you see a temple? are there sacrifices going on now? then Preterism must be true."

Why for what purpose...

I am not antisemitic... nor do i abide in the replacement theology ... Yet you would label me a preterist. and you speak as if know what i believe, you are mistaken...

Again i ask why the daily sacrifices? member reba
 
Okay.

"This generation..."

In context, Jesus said the generation that sees the fulfillment of the things he spoke of, THIS generation will not pass till all be fulfilled.
 
Honestly, preterism doesn't oppose the Trinity. Actual scripture texts don't include 'the great tribulation'.

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

The Great Tribulation is the one that Jesus said would be such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That said, the Great Tribulation is unique and stands alone as such, making it the Great Tribulation, second to none.


JLB
 
Okay.

"This generation..."

In context, Jesus said the generation that sees the fulfillment of the things he spoke of, THIS generation will not pass till all be fulfilled.


Amen Brother.

That is the way most people understand that verse.


JLB
 
Again i ask why the daily sacrifices? member reba
please read post 262 carefully.

The false messiah will deceive the world into believing he is the true messiah and will rebuild the temple and reestablish temple sacrifices. He will mock the idea that the death of messiah was God's plan. So, the sacrifices will be affirmation to the Jews that this guy is their guy even though he is not.
 
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

The Great Tribulation is the one that Jesus said would be such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That said, the Great Tribulation is unique and stands alone as such, making it the Great Tribulation, second to none.


JLB

Well done!
 
please read post 262 carefully.

The false messiah will deceive the world into believing he is the true messiah and will rebuild the temple and reestablish temple sacrifices. He will mock the idea that the death of messiah was God's plan. So, the sacrifices will be affirmation to the Jews that this guy is their guy even though he is not.
Where are the scriptures for such? member reba
 
Where are the scriptures for such?

It's getting kind of jumbled here, for such what?

I listed several scriptures in post 262 which is why I said please read carefully. There are more.
 

Again i ask why the daily sacrifices? member reba
please read post 262 carefully.

The false messiah will deceive the world into believing he is the true messiah and will rebuild the temple and reestablish temple sacrifices. He will mock the idea that the death of messiah was God's plan. So, the sacrifices will be affirmation to the Jews that this guy is their guy even though he is not.
Guess we just dont see the same things in Scripture.. :) member reba
 
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Sabbath day?
Nehemiah had made a ruling that the gates would be closed and remain closed on the sabbath. If it happened on a sabbath they would be trapped inside and could not flee to the mountains.
Neh 13:18 Thus did not your fathers do? and our God bringeth in on us all this evil, and on this city, and ye are adding fierceness on Israel, to pollute the sabbath.'
Neh 13:19 And it cometh to pass, when the gates of Jerusalem have been dark before the sabbath, that I speak, and the doors are shut, and I say, that they do not open them till after the sabbath; and of my servants I have stationed at the gates; there doth not come in a burden on the sabbath-day.
 
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