Futurist vs Preterist debate

[JohnD]

Nehemiah had made a ruling that the gates would be closed and remain closed on the sabbath. If it happened on a sabbath they would be trapped inside and could not flee to the mountains.
Neh 13:18 Thus did not your fathers do? and our God bringeth in on us all this evil, and on this city, and ye are adding fierceness on Israel, to pollute the sabbath.'
Neh 13:19 And it cometh to pass, when the gates of Jerusalem have been dark before the sabbath, that I speak, and the doors are shut, and I say, that they do not open them till after the sabbath; and of my servants I have stationed at the gates; there doth not come in a burden on the sabbath-day.

But you are making my point. The enforcement of sabbath law was from the vantage point that Jews were in charge and though the outside world was a threat in those days they maintained sabbath law so long as there was no threat from outside.

Deborah, do you believe they would have laid down their arms on Saturday to any and all invading forces to keep from breaking sabbath law? Really?

 

[jasonc]

Yeshu is a derogatory name.

Yeshua Y'shua short for Yehoshua = Joshua Jesus even Jesse other variations include Hoshea (Hosea) and Isaiah (Yeshayahu) Yah is savior / savior Yah that sort of thing.

Moshiakh / Mashiach / Messiah Christ

Spelling is not that critical. As in Tanach / Tanakh.

Ha is merely "the" as in the Moshiakh HaMoshiakh

I have done origin language study for many years, my friend.

I know what ha means, I know that yeshu is derogatory. but if that Is all that you know to call to god. then its not going to be held against you when you call that name.

Jews don't teach much about Jesus at all. I read what they say. I was reading what purim is from their own sources.

a jew may leave isreal, but isreal is never leaving the Jew. futurist seem to ignore that.

 

[jasonc]

I dunno, JasonC.

Do you believe God turned his back on your people?

no, but that one doesn't need land or soil to be a jew.
the function of isreal in Jewish view is complex. the land is the closest point on earth to get to God. Jerusalem amongst that is the closest. what does the bible say actually about that? do I physically have to ayalah(sp?) to be close the Lord? if so , show me that in the bible

The kaddish comes to mind once again.

 

[jasonc]

so Ezekiel 36, 40-48 are fulfilled?

 

[JohnD]

I know what ha means, I know that yeshu is derogatory. but if that Is all that you know to call to god. then its not going to be held against you when you call that name.

Jews don't teach much about Jesus at all. I read what they say. I was reading what purim is from their own sources.

a jew may leave isreal, but isreal is never leaving the Jew. futurist seem to ignore that.

Uh???

Not this futurist.

A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. Even if they run from it (and I am sure we both have encountered Jewish people like that).
But that is only physical. For this life. And it is forever in this life.

But the Bible draws a distinction between the spiritual and the physical not only between the twins (Yacov who was spiritual and Esau who was worldly) but between the spiritual Jew and the unspiritual.

Rabbi Shaul / Apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Harkening back at least as far as Deuteronomy 10:16, btw.

Clarifying what he meant in:

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The vehicle of faith in the New Covenant is not ekklesia / assembly / church in the way the Gentiles have redefined it but as the Spirit Israel of God into which we Gentiles are grafted and Jews who believe are born to or who do not persist in unbelief are grafted back into (Romans 11:16-26).

Galatians 6:10–16 (AV)
10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
11Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Yes there are futurists and Preterists and on and on who do not realize this is what scripture teaches. I am not one of them, khaver.

 

[JohnD]

so Ezekiel 36, 40-48 are fulfilled?

Actually I believe Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled in recent decades. And 40 - 48 are the tribulation (not to be destroyed but cleansed millennial) temple. Chapter 36 I have to go back and bone up on. Brb.

 

[jasonc]

yet your doctrine is just that, that MODERN isreal must be in order for that to be fulfilled.
yet currently depending the source, isreal and the us. have equal amounts of jews. it is true that more do practice Judaism there. but again, if modern isreal. sadly were to be wiped out. there would be still jews in the world. that is my case. land has nada with this.

literal eh?

" when ye see the armies surrounding the wall of Jerusalem, now that the desolation of thereof is near"

so modern isreal's capital per se wont be saved?

 

[jasonc]

Actually I believe Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled in recent decades. And 40 - 48 are the tribulation (not to be destroyed but cleansed millennial) temple. Chapter 36 I have to go back and bone up on. Brb.

modern isreal is not the two kingdoms. my family is big and we are all over. mostly us but none of us want to go to isreal. not even the ones in france.

40-48 are the tribulation? so the law returns in that time frame?

 

[JohnD]

Ezekiel 36 is yet to be fulfilled. There will be a time described in Isaiah 65 and other places as a time of celebration / reacquaintance between God and the Jewish people some call the millennium (because the edenic conditions will be restored and people will live to be about 1000). I believe Ezekiel 36 will be fulfilled then and certain portions of Ezekiel 36 reflect upon Jewish history up to the present day.

 

[JohnD]

yet your doctrine is just that, that MODERN isreal must be in order for that to be fulfilled.
yet currently depending the source, isreal and the us. have equal amounts of jews. it is true that more do practice Judaism there. but again, if modern isreal. sadly were to be wiped out. there would be still jews in the world. that is my case. land has nada with this.

literal eh?

" when ye see the armies surrounding the wall of Jerusalem, now that the desolation of thereof is near"

so modern isreal's capital per se wont be saved?

Not sure what you are driving at.

I believe the phase Israel is in now is the bones have regathered but there is no breath (spirit) or religion in them. There are religious Jews in Eretz. But they will tell you Yisro'el is secular and some religious Jews do not recognize its statehood.

 

[JohnD]

The gathering of all Jews to Israel / Jerusalem when they who survive to that point call out to Yeshua will be in the end of the ages. After the Jews will become the global refuseniks (after the false messiah reneges on his affirmation of the Mosaic covenant) and they become the brunt of the blame for the world's plagues (the way the Christian refuseniks previously were)... then the issue of total annihilation will occur.

 

[jasonc]

Not sure what you are driving at.

I believe the phase Israel is in now is the bones have regathered but there is no breath (spirit) or religion in them. There are religious Jews in Eretz. But they will tell you Yisro'el is secular and some religious Jews do not recognize its statehood.

nothing new to me.

been like that since the man david ben Gurion(who hated Judaism and was an atheist ) started the war for independence. Gurion wanted no state religion, he knew that arabs wouldn't want peace but also realized that if some would live in peace they can. much of what modern isreal is what Gurion envisioned. He did make some compromises with the rabbis the haredem say that.

do you really want a theocratic nation of isreal? that invites death to Christians.

 

[JohnD]

modern isreal is not the two kingdoms. my family is big and we are all over. mostly us but none of us want to go to isreal. not even the ones in france.

40-48 are the tribulation? so the law returns in that time frame?

Our posts are crossing.

Daniel 9:24–27 (AV)
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The false messiah (rebuilder of the temple) will confirm the mosaic covenant for 7 years.

 

[jasonc]

The university that I may learn from is in Isreal.

I could cheat and find some jew locally willing at the reformed temple.lol

 

[JohnD]

nothing new to me.

been like that since the man david ben Gurion(who hated Judaism and was an atheist ) started the war for independence. Gurion wanted no state religion, he knew that arabs wouldn't want peace but also realized that if some would live in peace they can. much of what modern isreal is what Gurion envisioned. He did make some compromises with the rabbis the haredem say that.

do you really want a theocratic nation of isreal? that invites death to Christians.

Don't want it. But it is in God's plan to woo Israel back. All of the futurist dogma plays part in that plan. So in the end I want what God wants.

 

[jasonc]

Our posts are crossing.

Daniel 9:24–27 (AV)
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The false messiah (rebuilder of the temple) will confirm the mosaic covenant for 7 years.

uhm read Ezekiel 40-48 again.
that says GOD will dwell in the temple if the people repent and give instructions to what they are to do. you said that Ezekiel 40-48 is during the trib. its not. my pastor doesn't teach that way. I know the basics of futurism.

 

[JohnD]

The university that I may learn from is in Isreal.

I could cheat and find some jew locally willing at the reformed temple.lol

grin

 

[jasonc]

Don't want it. But it is in God's plan to woo Israel back. All of the futurist dogma plays part in that plan. So in the end I want what God wants.

Do we know how many jews are saved since the cross?

we don't. I bet that is larger then you think. so you don't see the dilemma if isreal were to die out. 25 miles is a long way to ride on a donkey, or drive by car that is surrended by the enemies of isreal and not be wiped out. I would be outside of my county driving 25 miles straight line.(as the birds fly if I head west or north.

 

[JohnD]

uhm read Ezekiel 40-48 again.
that says GOD will dwell in the temple if the people repent and give instructions to what they are to do. you said that Ezekiel 40-48 is during the trib. its not. my pastor doesn't teach that way. I know the basics of futurism.

Again, there is a 2000 year pause in Isaiah 61:1-2a from the lips of the Blessed one himself.

Luke 4:16–20 (AV)
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

 

[JohnD]

Do we know how many jews are saved since the cross?

we don't. I bet that is larger then you think. so you don't see the dilemma if isreal were to die out. 25 miles is a long way to ride on a donkey, or drive by car that is surrended by the enemies of isreal and not be wiped out. I would be outside of my county driving 25 miles straight line.(as the birds fly if I head west or north.

I am of the strong opinion God has even pursued Jews who have mingled in amongst the Gentiles. That many will be surprised who enter the pearly gates as it were will be greeted by father Abraham as a physical heir as well as a spiritual heir