I would definitely say that when considering Isa 45:18, it does mean "became". But the earth was not created a waste place. Even though it became one.
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GAP…theory…or…fact?
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
He's also a KJV only kind of guy. And I disagree. Why, did you think I believed everything he said? But to your statement, seems you left out a quote mark, so I have no idea what all you were quoting. As I recall, he thought there were creatures similar to humans. Anyway, how far did you read? Seems maybe just a paragraph or 2.So I looked at this site you have posted, www.kjvbible.org and I quote:
"Why the old "world that then was" ended, and why God made a new world and modern Man, requires a study into the ancient origins of Satan and the Angels.
Very interesting seeing you don't believe that man existed before Adam. It appears the author of this site does.
I cited the verse. Did you miss it? Please tell me what 1 Pet 1:12 means.
I'd rather stick with actual scholars, myself. It is clear that he didn't understand the statement.
Gen 1:11-12
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
The "after his kind" is not a statement about procreation.
Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Again, nothing about procreation. However, v.22 is another thing. ;)
Gen 1:24, 25
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Again, nothing about procreation. That was back in v.22. "be fruitful and multiply".
Oh, and v.28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
And, this verse speaks to my earlier point about Rom 5:12 referring only to the world after man was created and put in dominion over all of it. Psa 8 and Heb 2:6-8.
I am with you. I am not speaking for everyone, I just see a definite Bias in a lot of cases on the flip-side of the argument. If one weighs the scripture and does the study and WANTS to know the truth it points to "was" is "became."I would definitely say that when considering Isa 45:18, it does mean "became". But the earth was not created a waste place. Even though it became one.
Deborah13
Member
FreeGrace , I am satisfied that you do not wish to take what anyone else shows you seriously.
You misquote Richard Jamieson.
You say that no one addressed your four scripture hayah statement and yet @Synthesis posted with a link to the Englishman's Concordance you said you were using, that the exact word from Genesis 1:2 occurs 111 times, not just your four.
You try to tell me that two completely different Greek words are the same from Hebrews and Mark.
Then you want 1 Peter to be talking about a time before Adam, when he is talking about the time before Noah's Flood.
So I'm done here.
God bless and keep you.
You misquote Richard Jamieson.
You say that no one addressed your four scripture hayah statement and yet @Synthesis posted with a link to the Englishman's Concordance you said you were using, that the exact word from Genesis 1:2 occurs 111 times, not just your four.
You try to tell me that two completely different Greek words are the same from Hebrews and Mark.
Then you want 1 Peter to be talking about a time before Adam, when he is talking about the time before Noah's Flood.
So I'm done here.
God bless and keep you.
Gregg
Member
Except in the case of creation when it did not exist [was nothing else] before it was.
To those wanting or needing a 'Gap Theory',
The world was created, called into existence, in a state identified as "without form and void" (Gen 1:2). This was its state "In the Beginning" when God created it (Gen 1:1). He did not create the earth with a history or with life upon it. Isa 45:18 points out that God did not create the world to remain formless or void, to remain empty, but rather with the purpose of forming it to be inhabited. The same is true for God's purpose of creating and forming Israel, as He explains in Isa 45:19-22. God created and formed Israel to be inhabited by Him. He did not create them in vain, but would accomplish bringing His Messiah into the world through Jacob according to His promise; and He explains as much in Isa 45:23-25. Paul agrees, as he interprets Isa 45:23 in this verse, "that at the name of Jesus 'every knee should bow,' of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth," (Php 2:10).
Isa 45:18 is nothing about fallen angels prior to Adam, ice that keeps Satan from further trashing the earth, or an old earth; but rather it is about our patient and loving Creator whom we know as Jesus, and to whom we bow. The LORD did not create the earth to remain empty, but after creating heaven and earth, He formed the earth to be inhabited by man; specifically to be inhabited by the Man Jesus Christ in whom God proposed that all other men "be holy and without blemish before Him" (Eph 1:4).
Please do not peddle Gen 1:1-2 and Isa 45:18 as having some mysterious revelation about angels trashing the earth, ice barriers, a gap in time, and an old earth . . . but rather about the Ancient of Days, the gap between God and man, the barrier of sin, and the God-Man Immanuel who is our Creator and only Mediator between God and man.
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"So says the LORD, your Redeemer and your Former from the womb; 'I am the LORD who makes all things; stretching out the heavens; I alone, spreading out the earth. Who was with Me,' " (Isa 44:24-25).
.
When I first studied this I bristled a bit. When I was first saved, YEC was just the norm and one of the first things I heard when I was saved was," The Gap is dangerous and False!" It was said with such disdain and negative attitude, that that stuck with me. And no one could adequately explain to me "Why." After studying it, now I know why they couldn't explain to me why it was false.
I believe what the deal is here, is the fact that it reveals Satans background to us. And Satan does not want us to know about his background. Because it reveals to us why we are truly here. God didn't need someone to love or someone to have a relationship with. He didn't create us because He was lonely or needed friends. He created us to be witnesses of His Grace and Mercy and Justice to Satan and his fallen Angels.
Satans appeals to God In Job. And Job did what he was created for....to be a witness of His Grace,mercy,justice and love.His fairness.
If we as believers, figure out that we are here to be witnesses in this Angelic conflict it is another nail in Satans coffin. And Satan will do his very best to blind the believer of why they are truly here.
That is why this doctrine is attacked.
Genesis 1:1 Is "and it was so."
I believe what the deal is here, is the fact that it reveals Satans background to us. And Satan does not want us to know about his background. Because it reveals to us why we are truly here. God didn't need someone to love or someone to have a relationship with. He didn't create us because He was lonely or needed friends. He created us to be witnesses of His Grace and Mercy and Justice to Satan and his fallen Angels.
Satans appeals to God In Job. And Job did what he was created for....to be a witness of His Grace,mercy,justice and love.His fairness.
If we as believers, figure out that we are here to be witnesses in this Angelic conflict it is another nail in Satans coffin. And Satan will do his very best to blind the believer of why they are truly here.
That is why this doctrine is attacked.
Gregg, can you give me any other examples of when God created something it was not perfect after He said " And it was so." And He had to "work" at it.
Genesis 1:1 Is "and it was so."
A rather judgmental statement, no? There has been a lot of push back, but nothing that either refutes my points or proves their view.
I typed in the exact statement. Could you point out what I misquoted, if I did?
I responded to that post. And I explained how I came to my conclusion.
If you look up each verse, they both are forms of 'katartizo', which has been my only point. The 2 words are only different in respect to voice, mood, and tense. They are the same word.You try to tell me that two completely different Greek words are the same from Hebrews and Mark.
No, I don't "want" anything, but truth. I explained that verse. If you or anyone else understands that verse differently, please explain what you think it means.
And to you, too.
First, I don't want or need any theory. I do want to know the truth. And WAY before Darwin, geologists determined that the earth was real old. It's just nonsense to claim that the earth is 6,000 yrs ago. Esp since carbon dating is accurate out to 10-15,000 yrs. If the earth was only 6,000 yrs old, there wouldn't be so many measurements leading to millions/billions of years. It would all show an age of about 10-15,000 yrs. Which it doesn't. No one has addressed this.
Sure, if you stay with "and" and "was". But I've definitively shown that "way" HAS BEEN translated as "became" in 4 other verses, using the exact same form as 1:2. It is inexplicable that y'all keep ignoring or dismissing that.
Pure opinion and speculation. In fact, Eze 18:13 refutes your speculation.
That's not what it says. I guess you believe you know more than the translators of the NASB, who translated "tohuwabohu" as "a waste place".
Your view doesn't even agree with the KJV, which rendered "tohuwabohu" as "in vain". But even that translation still fits with "a waste place", since such a place has no purpose. That's what "in vain" means.
I never said it was about those things. I suspect you haven't been reading my posts very closely.
I have shown that Gen 1:2 can easily without any stretch say that the earth became a waste place, and that cannot be refuted; just rejected or disagreed with. And isa 45:18 says that the earth wasn't created a waste place.
No one can explain the "apparent" age of the earth, if it was created 6 days before Adam.
There is no "mysterious revelation" here. I admitted what happened in that time gap is unknown. But the Bible does give some indication. I've definitively shown that 1:2 indicates that the earth became something it was not created as.
I've explained that verse, and gave the Hebrew word, which doesn't mean "stretching". Your view is the 'stretch' here.
Very well said!!When I first studied this I bristled a bit. When I was first saved, YEC was just the norm and one of the first things I heard when I was saved was," The Gap is dangerous and False!" It was said with such disdain and negative attitude, that that stuck with me. And no one could adequately explain to me "Why." After studying it, now I know why they couldn't explain to me why it was false.
I believe what the deal is here, is the fact that it reveals Satans background to us. And Satan does not want us to know about his background. Because it reveals to us why we are truly here. God didn't need someone to love or someone to have a relationship with. He didn't create us because He was lonely or needed friends. He created us to be witnesses of His Grace and Mercy and Justice to Satan and his fallen Angels.
Satans appeals to God In Job. And Job did what he was created for....to be a witness of His Grace,mercy,justice and love.His fairness.
If we as believers, figure out that we are here to be witnesses in this Angelic conflict it is another nail in Satans coffin. And Satan will do his very best to blind the believer of why they are truly here.
That is why this doctrine is attacked.
Gregg
Member
Context.
Gregg
Member
What else can I say.
Please Gregg, Show us how the context demands that it has to be "was."
We learn by repetition and I have not learned yet, how the context of Gen 1:2 demands that it is "was."
Gregg
Member
Really, that is the reason why God created man? I am totally astounded that a Christian could say such a thing. I would suggest that you make an appointment with your pastor, and discuss this statement with him.
Gregg
Member
turnorburn
Member
FreeGrace said " It's just nonsense to claim that the earth is 6,000 yrs ago. Esp since carbon dating is accurate out to 10-15,000 yrs"
40 some years ago i read an article that said they took a living mollusk and tested it by that method the test said that it was 5000 years old.. not that it matters because the bible paints a better picture than man ever will..
tob
40 some years ago i read an article that said they took a living mollusk and tested it by that method the test said that it was 5000 years old.. not that it matters because the bible paints a better picture than man ever will..
tob
turnorburn
Member
Yes seriously.. the holy spirit keeps me warm but not to the point that I'm melting..
tob
Please explain "context". iow, show how context demands a different translation.
Please explain what 1 Pet 1:12 means, then. Why do angels "long to look into these things" (salvation)?
I never said the technique was perfect. Far from it. I've read that flowers growing by airports have a carbon date of thousands of years too.
I believe the site www.kjvbible.org explains the geologic age of the earth and how Noah's flood could not have created the sediments and fossils found today.
There was a very good reason I linked Isa 45:18 to Gen 1:2. The same phrase occurs in both. Yet, no translation is consistent with how to render the same phrase in the 2 verses.
If YEC were correct, then Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other. How? Simple. YEC claims that 1:2 is simply the way that God created (banah-out of nothing) the earth which was w/o form and void.
Yet, Isaiah wrote that God did NOT create (banah) the world w/o form and void. Though the KJV treats the phrase as an adverb in 45:18.
So, just putting the same rendering from 1:2 into 45:18 results in a total contradiction.
The only solution is to acknowledge that 1:2 describes how the earth became, because Isaiah says that the earth was NOT created "tohu wabohu".
Even the NASB wasn't consistent. While properly translating the phrase in 45:18 as "waste place", they didn't in 1:2.
So, IF earth was created w/o form and void, Isaiah says it wasn't. Total contradiction. It can't be both.