GAP…theory…or…fact?

[gr8grace3]

Really, that is the reason why God created man? I am totally astounded that a Christian could say such a thing. I would suggest that you make an appointment with your pastor, and discuss this statement with him.

Gregg, I just want the truth. We are in the Angelic conflict, and we are witnesses For God in this conflict. And we are blessed beyond imagination with a relationship in Christ For following His plan for our lives.

Eph 3:9-10 NASB~~9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

And I would suggest to anyone, that they find a pastor who will actually teach mystery doctrine, instead of this "daisy field" Christianity that most teach.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would call this an assumption. Just because Scripture doesn't give us a complete list of Adam's kids, there is no reason to assume that there were other "humans" or pre-humans or anyone other than Adam's kids. Remember how long they lived. We have no idea when Cain left the family. Could have been hundreds of kids by then. We just don't know, but your assumption of other than Adam's line is quite a leap, imho.

Very true as this would be an assumption as I took Genesis chapter 4 to be Adams first son being Cain, second son being Abel, but I guess there might have been daughters before Cain and also more born between Cain and Able. We can never know for sure, just as I assume there were others before Adam I can only go by scripture comparing scripture with scripture to form my own thoughts on the subject.

 

[for_his_glory]

Replenish is a secondary interpretation, but 'fill' would be used as the translation for something that begins empty; as is the case in Gen 1:22 and Gen 1:28 (LITV, NIV, ESV). The LXX interprets מלא as πληρόω meaning to cram or level up; such as used here: ". . . asking that you may be filled [πληρόω] with the full knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding," (Col 1:9 LITV).

Genesis 1:22 and 1:28 are two different events as I see 1:22 as being the very beginning of Gods creation of commanding the seas to be filled with life way before the creation of man and then further down the line (not knowing a time line) God tells Adam to replenish and subdue and take dominion over everything as in possibly taking charge or being the one to walk in Gods will as others before Adam walked in disobedience as in the days of Noah. I'm only speculating as how I read things. I'm not reading anything into scripture but only comparing scripture with scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

Young's Literal Translation
Gen 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
YLT
Isa 45:18 For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it--not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: `I am Jehovah, and there is none else.

In the beginning OF God's PREPARING the earth, it existed empty and the Holy Spirit was moving on the surface of the waters.
God as the designer (architect), former and maker, established it (made it upright). NOT empty He PREPARED it but He PREPARED it to be inhabited, He formed it to be inhabited.
YHVH is God and there is no other one.

I woke up this morning and Isaiah 45:18 was the first verse I read. I had to chuckle because it was right there under my nose.
1) God Creator - architect before the foundation of the world
2) God Former - when one builds the foundation of a house, the panels used to hold the liquid concrete in place are called forms.
3) God Maker - the builder, the one who builds on the foundation
4) God Establisher - all of these are necessary for the abode to stand up right (not fall down) and to be a habitable abode

The architect's intention from the beginning of preparing this abode was to make in habitable for man and beast, for all His creation.

A potter when they dig or buy a brick of clay, they begin to shape it and form it into an unrecognizable shape. Then they keep working the clay over until it becomes the finished creation ready for use.
God did that in creating the earth and He does that to us, too.

KJV with Strong's numbers
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776
Gen 1:2 And the earthH776 wasH1961 without form,H8414 and void;H922 and darknessH2822 was uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the deep.H8415 And the SpiritH7307 of GodH430 movedH7363 uponH5921 the faceH6440 of the waters.H4325
KJV with Strong's
Isa 45:18 ForH3588 thusH3541 saithH559 the LORDH3068 that createdH1254 the heavens;H8064 GodH430 himselfH1931 that formedH3335 the earthH776 and madeH6213 it; heH1931 hath establishedH3559 it, he createdH1254 it notH3808 in vain,H8414 he formedH3335 it to be inhabited:H3427 IH589 am the LORD;H3068 and there is noneH369 else.H5750

 

[for_his_glory]

We can speculate, deduct and rationalize this, but yet each has their own thoughts on the matter. I have never concluded the fact, but stand on the possibility that there were others on earth before Adam. Does it have anything to do with my salvation or anyone's else's, no. It's only a thought of curiosity and has no bearing on the teachings of scripture as the teachings start with Adam and conclude on the great and terrible day of the Lord. I am opting out of this conversation for I have said all I can on the subject and will let everyone to their own conclusions. God bless all of you

 

[turnorburn]

I never said the technique was perfect. Far from it. I've read that flowers growing by airports have a carbon date of thousands of years too.

I believe the site www.kjvbible.org explains the geologic age of the earth and how Noah's flood could not have created the sediments and fossils found today.

i didn't see any information on that site about our mountain ranges being created at the time of the flood either, or how gravitation pull caused the magma under the earths crust to thrust upward forming those mountain ranges and at the same time causing the fountains of the great deep to break open like it says in..

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

tob

*edit: spelling

 

[Gregg]

Please explain "context". iow, show how context demands a different translation.

Please explain what 1 Pet 1:12 means, then. Why do angels "long to look into these things" (salvation)?

Regarding context, I couldn't pass this one up - you pulled me back into the conversation.

Nothing in 1 Pet 1:12 [or the chapter's context] suggests even a remote connection to creation, to the age of the earth, or the presence of angels regarding either. So why bring it into the discussion? It is not even tangent to this thread.

Calling upon 1Pet 1:12 in support of 'Gap Theory' demonstrates a lack of συνεσει πνευματικη - inability to understand concepts and see relationships between them. It also demonstrates elastic exegesis and a propensity to see things that are not there.




.

 

[FreeGrace]

Young's Literal Translation
Gen 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
YLT
Isa 45:18 For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it--not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: `I am Jehovah, and there is none else.

OK, let's stop focusing on how to translate "tohu wabohu" for a moment. Let's just stick with the 2 words in each verse.

If the YECers are correct, Moses wrote that God created out of nothing the earth and it was "tohu wabohu".

Yet, Isaiah clearly wrote this: God did not create out of nothing the earth "tohu wabohu".

Do you see the glaring contradiction here? Regardless of what English words we might want to insert in each verse, it doesn't matter. It's the Hebrew that counts, and the 2 words occur together in both Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

So, whatever they mean, Moses and Isaiah were referring to creation, by the word "create" (barah).

If there is no time gap, and God did create the earth "tohu wabohu", then he contradicts Isaiah completely, who wrote the exact opposite; that God did not create the earth "tohu wabohu".

The only reasonable conclusion is that v.2 should read "but the earth became "tohu wabohu". Thus, we have a time gap that isn't explained, but just noted by inference of the fact that the earth became something other than what it was at original creation.

In the beginning OF God's PREPARING the earth, it existed empty and the Holy Spirit was moving on the surface of the waters.

This does not, and cannot, explain the contradiction between Moses and Isaiah. If there is no time gap, they are contradicted by each other.

In spite of what Gregg posted about the "gap theorists" doing harm to Scripture, I have just shown that in fact, it is the YECers that are doing great harm to Scripture, by creating a huge contradiction between Moses and Isaiah.

 

[FreeGrace]

We can speculate, deduct and rationalize this, but yet each has their own thoughts on the matter.

No, it's real clear. If there is no time gap, then Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other in a huge way.

I have never concluded the fact, but stand on the possibility that there were others on earth before Adam. Does it have anything to do with my salvation or anyone's else's, no. It's only a thought of curiosity and has no bearing on the teachings of scripture as the teachings start with Adam and conclude on the great and terrible day of the Lord. I am opting out of this conversation for I have said all I can on the subject and will let everyone to their own conclusions. God bless all of you

The point is this: we should all understand what Scripture says. And the earth is quite a lot older than Adam. Not that it changes any doctrine. Or, Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other. I don't accept that view.

 

[FreeGrace]

Regarding context, I couldn't pass this one up - you pulled me back into the conversation.

Nothing in 1 Pet 1:12 [or the chapter's context] suggests even a remote connection to creation, to the age of the earth, or the presence of angels regarding either.

Nor did I ever suggest such a thing.

Calling upon 1Pet 1:12 in support of 'Gap Theory' demonstrates a lack of συνεσει πνευματικη - inability to understand concepts and see relationships between them. It also demonstrates elastic exegesis and a propensity to see things that are not there.

I didn't "call" on anything to prove or demonstrate anything. I asked what it meant by "angels long to look into these things", context being salvation of mankind.

Do you believe Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other? If you believe there is no time gap, then that is the only conclusion.

 

[Gregg]

No, it's real clear. If there is no time gap, then Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other in a huge way.

Allow me to interpret your statement for you: If no false condition, then true does not equal true.

 

[Gregg]

Nor did I ever suggest such a thing.


I didn't "call" on anything to prove or demonstrate anything. I asked what it meant by "angels long to look into these things", context being salvation of mankind.

What does the answer matter? 1Pet 1:12 is a disconnect and diversion from the subject matter of this thread.

Do you believe Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other? If you believe there is no time gap, then that is the only conclusion.

Please read my post # 291.

You are asking me if Scripture contradicts itself, knowing that my answer will be 'no, it does not'. So in advance, you say if I answer 'no' then I must agree with you that there is a time gap.

Can reason walk beside narcissistic intellect?




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[gr8grace3]

What does the answer matter? 1Pet 1:12 is a disconnect and diversion from the subject matter of this thread.



Please read my post # 291.

You are asking me if Scripture contradicts itself, knowing that my answer will be 'no, it does not'. So in advance, you say if I answer 'no' then I must agree with you that there is a time gap.

Can reason walk beside narcissistic intellect?




.

Gregg, I hope I do not come across to you like this. I don't see FreeGrace as coming off like that either.

I just want a discussion. So could you please explain how there is no contradiction in the verses being discussed. I just want your point of view on those scriptures, not just a comment on what or how someone else "says" something. Explain how there is no contradiction in Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

This is what I interpret you are teaching, correct me if I am wrong,please. Genesis 1:1-2 God created the earth and it was "tohu wabohu".

Then we have Isaiah say God did not create the earth "tohu wabohu".

I see a contradiction. Can you show me how there is not a contradiction please? I am Sorry, but I have seen no one just explain it, straight and simple.

 

[FreeGrace]

Allow me to interpret your statement for you: If no false condition, then true does not equal true.

Huh? That "interpretation" doesn't make sense.

But never mind. If there is no time gap, then Isaiah has contracted Moses, period.

Regardless of how one translates "tohu wabohu", both used those 2 words in relation to creation (barah). So, one of them has to be wrong, if there is no time gap. Who do you think was wrong?

If no time gap, then Moses said that God created the earth "tohu wabohu", while Isaiah said that God did NOT create the earth "tohu wabohu".

So, you're believing Moses over Isaiah, right?

 

[FreeGrace]

What does the answer matter? 1Pet 1:12 is a disconnect and diversion from the subject matter of this thread.

So, no answer, then.

Please read my post # 291.

I did, and it makes no sense.

You are asking me if Scripture contradicts itself, knowing that my answer will be 'no, it does not'. So in advance, you say if I answer 'no' then I must agree with you that there is a time gap.

No, I'm saying that those who reject a time gap in Gen 1:1,2 create a contradiction between Moses and Isaiah.

Can reason walk beside narcissistic intellect?

Please, be reasonable then.

If there is no time gap, then Moses plainly said that "God created the earth tohu wabohu". Right?

And Isaiah plainly said that "God did NOT create the earth tohu wabohu". Right?

So, if there is no time gap, then who is right here? Both can't be right, if there was no time gap.

However, if there is a time gap, we know that v.2 must read "but, the earth became tohu wabohu".

I've already shown that "but…became" are entirely legitimate translations. And keep Isaiah from contradicting Moses.

 

[Deborah13]

OK, let's stop focusing on how to translate "tohu wabohu" for a moment. Let's just stick with the 2 words in each verse.

If the YECers are correct, Moses wrote that God created out of nothing the earth and it was "tohu wabohu".

What? Where did Moses write in Genesis 1:2 that God created the earth out of nothing?
Specifically from the verse show me where Moses wrote that, or that YECers say it says that?
PLEASE bolden that part of this verse of scripture.
KJV
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Yet, Isaiah clearly wrote this: God did not create out of nothing the earth "tohu wabohu".

Do you see the glaring contradiction here? Regardless of what English words we might want to insert in each verse, it doesn't matter. It's the Hebrew that counts, and the 2 words occur together in both Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18.

So, whatever they mean, Moses and Isaiah were referring to creation, by the word "create" (barah).

If there is no time gap, and God did create the earth "tohu wabohu", then he contradicts Isaiah completely, who wrote the exact opposite; that God did not create the earth "tohu wabohu".

The only reasonable conclusion is that v.2 should read "but the earth became "tohu wabohu". Thus, we have a time gap that isn't explained, but just noted by inference of the fact that the earth became something other than what it was at original creation.


This does not, and cannot, explain the contradiction between Moses and Isaiah. If there is no time gap, they are contradicted by each other.

In spite of what Gregg posted about the "gap theorists" doing harm to Scripture, I have just shown that in fact, it is the YECers that are doing great harm to Scripture, by creating a huge contradiction between Moses and Isaiah.

 

[FreeGrace]

What? Where did Moses write in Genesis 1:2 that God created the earth out of nothing?
Specifically from the verse show me where Moses wrote that, or that YECers say it says that?

OK, let's start with v.1. The word "created" is "barah" in the Hebrew, and indicates creating something out of nothing. The same word occurs in Isa 45:18.

But never mind, that's just a distraction. The point is clear. IF v.2 should be translated as "and the earth was…", then what Moses wrote contradicts directly what Isaiah wrote in 45:18. Are you following this?

Isaiah wrote that "God did NOT create the earth "tohu wabohu", so no matter how you want to define those 2 words, they both occur in Gen 1:2 and Isa 45:18. And Isaiah claimed that God did NOT create the earth "tohu wabohu", whereas Gen 1:2 says that God did, IF you stay with "and the earth was…". Got it? This is a direct contradiction.

Those who believe the earth is 6 days older than Adam take v.2 as how God originally created the earth. And that would be "tohu wabohu". But Isaiah directly contradicts that in 45:18.

YEC have a big problem. Their view leads to Scripture contradicting Scripture.

The only solution to avoiding this contradiction is to understand v.2 as "but, the earth became "tohu wabohu".

 

[Gregg]

Please, be reasonable then.

This would have been reasonable: Your OP should have listed each point of you case for the 'Gap Theory' [with or w/o description], followed by a conclusion. If you had done that, I wouldn't have responded in the first place. Why? Because I would have seen a ridiculously extra-biblical conclusion . . . built upon several mis-interpretations of Scripture substantiated by conjecture.

Now I am the wiser for it; a little dizzy with your manner of argument and persistent self-substantiation, but wiser for it non-the-less.

 

[jasonc]

http://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human-beings-on-earth-before-adam

 

[jasonc]

http://creation.com/gap-theory-revisited