GAP…theory…or…fact?

[Gregg]

Of course I do. But that's not what this thread is about. Only that there was a time gap, in which the earth became a waste place. What actually happened is only conjecture.

My view is that since Eze 28:11-15 indicates that Satan was in Eden and was perfect from the day he was created. But in Gen 1-3, he wasn't perfect at all. He had already fallen. Conclusion: after he fell, he made planet earth his HQ. And he trashed the place. So when God created human beings to prove something to Satan, he "adjusted" the planet in order for Adam to be able to live there.

I can't think of another idea as to why the earth became a waste place.

That is because it did not become a waste place. It was created to be inhabited by man, specifically to be inhabited by the God-Man Immanuel.

 

[gr8grace3]

:yes I can agree with that.



Yes, two very conflicting statements. One does not need to 'repair' something that is not broken. If it was broken then God did not do it. So who did?

I believe Satan did it and it was the fall of Satan. I believe God Froze the earth to stop Satan After his fall.

This is what I don't understand.....

Even if our position is a YE and Genesis 1 is a creation account. Mankind and sin tumbled this perfect creation into chaos and God Has to restore it in the end because of the Fall of mankind.

Why is it a stretch to think that He had to restore the earth after the fall of Satan?

 

[gr8grace3]

That is because it did not become a waste place. It was created to be inhabited by man, specifically to be inhabited by the God-Man Immanuel.

God Created this earth perfect. What would you call this place at this moment?

And I am Curious Gregg. What is this death that you are speaking of that MUST have been here if one believes in the GAP fact?

 

[Gregg]

God told Adam to replenish the Earth and after the flood told Noah to replenish the Earth. Why would God say to replenish if there were not others before Adam just as there were others before Noah.........just saying!

Replenish is a secondary interpretation, but 'fill' would be used as the translation for something that begins empty; as is the case in Gen 1:22 and Gen 1:28 (LITV, NIV, ESV). The LXX interprets מלא as πληρόω meaning to cram or level up; such as used here: ". . . asking that you may be filled [πληρόω] with the full knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding," (Col 1:9 LITV).

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother Mike, I never saw it before either until I put Genesis creation account and that of Ezekiel chapter 31 together and dug deeper into the scriptures. There is the possibility that God created others before Adam that walked in disobedience to God, thus the lineage of Adam had to be created for the purpose of Christ coming to Earth, even though Christ was before the very foundation of the world.

Except the human race failed. So, that begs the question: Can God create a race that is obedient? That's kinda what your comments lead to.

No, Scripture does not indicate any such idea that humans pre-existed Adam. Angels, yes. Humans, no.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is because it did not become a waste place.

I've given verses from both the OT and NT that indicate otherwise. In fact, Isa 45:18 says that God did not create the earth as a waste place (NASB). And JF&B have no problem with "but the earth became a waste place", as I've shown.

It was created to be inhabited by man, specifically to be inhabited by the God-Man Immanuel.

The Bible never says that the earth was created to be inhabited by man.

How does an old earth threaten your doctrine?

 

[Gregg]

I'm just saying the possibility is there just by what I have studied, but it really makes no difference other than it being maybe a part of past history.

Adam was the first man - "So also it has been written, 'The first' man, Adam, 'became a living soul;' the last Adam a life-giving Spirit" (1Cor 15:45 LITV). Gen 2:7-8 tells us that this very first man that He created was put into the Garden of Eden; and that Adam was alone (Gen 2:18).

The source is scripture as if you would read Ezekiel chapter 31 you will see they were in the garden of Eden before that of Adam being placed there. As for further study I will not do your homework for you as this is how we learn when we dig deeper into the word of God. Just do a study on Assyrians in the Garden of Eden.

No Assyrians in the Garden of Eden with Adam.

 

[FreeGrace]

Adam was the first man - "So also it has been written, 'The first' man, Adam, 'became a living soul;' the last Adam a life-giving Spirit" (1Cor 15:45 LITV). Gen 2:7-8 tells us that this very first man that He created was put into the Garden of Eden; and that Adam was alone (Gen 2:18).



No Assyrians in the Garden of Eden with Adam.

Correct.

 

[Gregg]

How does an old earth threaten your doctrine?

Something does not have to be a threat, in order to stand for the truth.

 

[Gregg]

God Created this earth perfect. What would you call this place at this moment?

And I am Curious Gregg. What is this death that you are speaking of that MUST have been here if one believes in the GAP fact?

Are you confusing me with someone else, as I do not believe in the Gap Theory. Where did I mention death, please?

 

[gr8grace3]

Are you confusing me with someone else, as I do not believe in the Gap Theory. Where did I mention death, please?

Post # 63~~Gregg~~To believe there was death before Adam’s sin destroys the basis of the Christian message. The Bible states that man’s rebellious actions led to death and the corruption of the universe, but the gap theory undermines the reason that man needs a Savior.


I will try to be more clear. I do Know that you do not believe in the Gap doctrine.

What death are you speaking of?

Sorry for the confusion brother. I asked before, right after you posted it, but no response. And it may have been worded confusing, sorry.

 

[Gregg]

Post # 63~~Gregg~~To believe there was death before Adam’s sin destroys the basis of the Christian message. The Bible states that man’s rebellious actions led to death and the corruption of the universe, but the gap theory undermines the reason that man needs a Savior.


I will try to be more clear. I do Know that you do not believe in the Gap doctrine.

What death are you speaking of?

Sorry for the confusion brother. I asked before right after you posted it, but no response. And it may have been worded confusing, sorry.

Yes, keeping track of things is not easy here.

I was quoting:
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575 :, and
https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/what-about-the-gap-and-ruin-reconstruction-theories/ .

But for God Himself, I do not believe any sentient beings existed before Adam, and that death to man came through Adam [or because of his sin]. The article, with which I agree, was speaking about both spiritual death [separation from God] and physical death.

 

[reba]

Lets keep this thread on topic... Ezk 31 is not for this thread.... admin

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, keeping track of things is not easy here.

I was quoting:
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575 :, and
https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/what-about-the-gap-and-ruin-reconstruction-theories/ .

But for God Himself, I do not believe any sentient beings existed before Adam, and that death to man came through Adam [or because of his sin]. The article, with which I agree, was speaking about both spiritual death [separation from God] and physical death.

Thanks Gregg. I do appreciate your time and thoughts.

 

[Gregg]

The Bible never says that the earth was created to be inhabited by man.

And I added "specifically to be inhabited by the God-Man Immanuel"; which is qualified by this: "all things have been created. . . for Him."

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, keeping track of things is not easy here.

I was quoting:
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575 :, and
https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/gap-theory/what-about-the-gap-and-ruin-reconstruction-theories/ .

But for God Himself, I do not believe any sentient beings existed before Adam, and that death to man came through Adam [or because of his sin]. The article, with which I agree, was speaking about both spiritual death [separation from God] and physical death.

I do believe Angels were created before man. Job 38:4-
4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,

5Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?

6“On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,

7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?.....ALL, before the fall of Satan and his angels.

And I completely Agree with you on this,", and that death to man came through Adam [or because of his sin]."

God will not hold man responsible for satans sin,nor will God hold angels responsible for mans sin.

It is why Christ had to come in the Flesh for Mankind. A Man had to pay the price for mankind.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't see this as relevant. I given the words and how they were used in other passages; same form, in fact. And I cited Jameison, Faussett and Brown Commentary on the verse, where they acknowledge that "eminent critics" accept the "waste place" translation and "became" from Gen 1:2.

It is relevant, and in many ways. Why do you accept one commentary over another? A servant is not greater than its master and in this case, the Jews understand their own language better than any Lexicon you can quote from. That being the case, if you should pause for a moment, you would certainly see the relevance.

 

[jasonc]

lol. I am a gentile. I don't speak Hebrew, but the Hebrew native whom is fluent in his tounge is wrong.

 

[stovebolts]

lol. I am a gentile. I don't speak Hebrew, but the Hebrew native whom is fluent in his tounge is wrong.

So says the Hebrew.

 

[Deborah13]

Semantics? No real difference here.

Huh?

Is your source claiming that this primitive noun is only used in a singular sense? Then why is it found in the plural?

MY SOURCE?? I copied it right from YOUR post GAP…theory…or…fact? from Strong's. Click on the blue writing and it will take you to YOUR post where you quoted it from Strong's.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to. What "word" in Mark 10:6. The word I have explained was "ktisis", or in the actual Greek text, "ktisews". I explained how I found the proper meaning, "from a state of disorder and wildness".

This is YOUR post..GAP…theory…or…fact?
In that post you say...
"And I've shown that both mark 10:6 and Heb 11:3 indicate that there was a restoration."
Here is Mark 10:6 and Hebrews 11:3

Mar 10:6 ButG1161 fromG575 the beginningG746 of the creationG2937 GodG2316 madeG4160 themG846 maleG730 andG2532 female.G2338

Heb 11:3 Through faithG4102 we understandG3539 that theG3588 worldsG165 were framedG2675 by the wordG4487 of God,G2316 so that things which are seenG991 were notG3361 madeG1096 ofG1537 things which do appear.G5316

WHICH words from this scripture are you comparing and saying they both mean 'restoration'? Now that is a very simple question, wouldn't you say? Will you please answer it?

I cannot figure out this sentence. Please advise.

You said that I was speculating about the time involved between verses 1 and 2. I said you and Mr. Jamison were also speculating. Jamison does not declare it was a long period of time but only speculates that it May have been.

Meanings of words don't change by a letter. In the Greek, various letters indicate the different moods, voice, and tense. Not meaning.

Really? Do a noun and a verb mean exactly the same thing?
G2937 - κτίσις - ktisis - noun
G2936 - κτίζω -ktizō - verb (this is the root word) See how the ending changed?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2937&t=KJV

What is the point here? Or, so what?

I said

Here is the link again to the Englishman's Concordance showing that form of the word is only used One, One, time in the NT. http://biblehub.com/greek/kate_rtisthai_2675.htm

You said GAP…theory…or…fact?

Heb 11:3 - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. KJV NASB has 'prepared'

The Greek word for "framed" is 'katartizo':
katartizō Strong's #: 2675......The word occurs 13 times in the NT."

I pointed out to you that the word "καταρτίζω - katartizō does not appear 13 times in the NT.
According to the Englishman's Concordance, that you use, that word appears only 1 time and that is in Hebrews 11:3.
"κατηρτίσθαι (katērtisthai) — 1 Occurrence
Hebrews 11:3 V-RNM/P
GRK: Πίστει νοοῦμεν κατηρτίσθαι τοὺς αἰῶνας
NAS: that the worlds were prepared by the word
KJV: that the worlds were framed by the word
INT: By faith we understand to have been formed the worlds
http://biblehub.com/greek/kate_rtisthai_2675.htm

You mean who trashed the place? Scripture doesn't say.

You are correct it doesn't say anybody "trashed the place".