God Created Man/Adam Sin-ful

[jeremiah1five]

...or as Strong defines the word, "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)
I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless, was holy, and innocent before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies. I trusted the Word of God and what I was coming to see was indeed the building of this "so-great salvation" and the "working out of my own salvation" in my life. I hope there is something in this submission that the Lord use to also build that "mansion" in your own life. So, in consideration of James 3:11, let me begin.

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on. We also learn early on that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory (of which Holiness, Righteousness, Omniscience, Omni-present, etc., are His glory.) When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something God had created earlier, that is, the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[Verse 50 is significant, as it is relevant to this post, but its inclusion will make this post very long to explain.]

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology? ("theology" is a compound word from two Greek words: "theos" means "God," and "[o]logy" comes from the word "logos," meaning "word" or "thought." Thus, put together means "Word of God."

So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, ho does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing Adam (and us) that Adam (and we) are sinners:

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Applying what Paul taught about the existence of the Law in Romans 7:7, it would look like this:

ADAM: "What shall say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law (or Command): for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Adam does not and did not bear the image of God, but of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ - our Savior. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" and this is why he was a sinner BEFORE he sinned. Sin [disobedience] comes from sinner, sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was Sinless, He did not sin. But the first man, who bore the image of the earthy (and not of 'heaven' as 1 Cor. 15:49 states), sinned. He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

 

[for_his_glory]

The law brought us to recognize sin when we transgress against God's commands. Adam did not know sin until it was revealed to him after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Romans 7:7

Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground as God breathed His breath of life into Adam making him a living soul. Adam was not created sinful as he was created perfect, but through deceit and being tempted by Satan he became disobedient to God's command and therefore became sinful in the flesh.

We are all created in the image of God being made perfect for that is God's image, but also having a body of flesh and blood unlike the Spirit of God and we also have an immaterial soul/spirit being the very breath of God who made us a living soul. All have a sin nature now because of Adam, but do not recognize sin until it is revealed to them by the law/God's commands.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The law brought us to recognize sin when we transgress against God's commands. Adam did not know sin until it was revealed to him after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Romans 7:7

Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground as God breathed His breath of life into Adam making him a living soul. Adam was not created sinful as he was created perfect, but through deceit and being tempted by Satan he became disobedient to God's command and therefore became sinful in the flesh.

We are all created in the image of God being made perfect for that is God's image, but also having a body of flesh and blood unlike the Spirit of God and we also have an immaterial soul/spirit being the very breath of God who made us a living soul. All have a sin nature now because of Adam, but do not recognize sin until it is revealed to them by the law/God's commands.

for_his_glory, thanks for stopping by.
Now, if I may...
Your first paragraph is correct IF you are identifying "know" as the knowledge God was trying to equip him with. The fruit did not make him sin-ful, nor did his disobedience, he was created that way. Everything God creates will be fallen short of His glory because it will not possess any of the Deific Attributes of God. There is only ONE God. God CANNOT transfer, re-duplicate, share, give, His glory to no one:

Isaiah 45:6 (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 43:10 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Genesis 2:8 the word "formed" is the same word in Hebrew as the word in Isaiah 43:10. Take note.

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV)
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Adam possessed no Deific Attributes of God. Adam was not sinless, Adam was not holy, Adam was not righteous, Adam was not eternal in his creation (he would have eventually died even if he did not eat from the Tree.) He was created fallen short - VERY short of the glory of God. This is why he sinned when tested and educated about his sinful-ness. The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil was used of God to SHOW Adam (and the woman) they were sin-ful. The Greek word "sin" and it's cognates is "missing the mark: [think archery - missing the bullseye, falling short.]
AND the "Thou shalt not" in Genesis 2:17 PROVES he was sin-ful as the Law/Command of God shows US we are sin-ful.

Adam is not made in the image of God. If this is true, then humans AND Christ is in the image of Adam, but I find no passage of Scripture to support this at all. I find the opposite:

1 Corinthians 15:47 (KJV)
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man [Christ] is the Lord from heaven.

QUOTE: "Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground as God breathed His breath of life into Adam making him a living soul. Adam was not created sinful as he was created perfect, but through deceit and being tempted by Satan he became disobedient to God's command and therefore became sinful in the flesh."

RESPONSE: There is nothing Deific about dirt. Dirt possesses NO DEIFIC ATTRIBUTES of God. It's the same dirt you walk on, and if God created a man from this dirt it, too, will be sin-ful.
Adam is earthy. Of the earth. There is nothing 'heavenly' about him. God formed the man from dirt, at this point Adam was a dead soul (the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, senses, conscience and will.) God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and Adam was animated and became a living soul. At the same TIME He breathed US, His Elect, those whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain...into the loins of Adam, to be born into the world at the appointed TIME, and born again at the appointed TIME. There is no 'chance' with God. ALL THINGS are pre-ordained and predestinated. Adam was not perfect. Imperfect does not come from 'perfect.' Adam disobeyed because he was created a sinner who "missed the mark" of the glory of God. You need to think. I'm laying it all out for you. You seem to know your Word and I tilt 51-49% you are of God. But your responses are found in another man's bible-study (commentaries) and are text-book answers, but I hope to believe that the truth WILL get through to you, that the Word of God and reason will win the day. It doesn't have to be today, but seriously consider what I have said above. You seem to omit/ignore the reasonableness of my statements.

Words like "perfect" and "innocent" are catch-phrases and THEY ARE deceit. It's a bi-lateral universe God created: Up-down, in-out, left-right, right-wrong, perfect-imperfect....if Adam was "perfect" as you say, then is it reasonable and even logical that imperfect comes from perfect? Sin comes from sinner, it does not come from holy or 'perfect.' Holiness comes from holy. The second Adam (Christ) proved this. Don't you see it? It's Bible.

In our atonement we are not being conformed into the image of the earthy Adam. We, the Elect of God, are being conformed into the image of Christ who is the image of God:

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

When God breathed into the nostrils of Adam He looked forward to the days post-cross and the Advent of the Holy Spirit through whom we in our salvation become a New man (and woman) in Christ. THAT'S WHO is the image of God. Christ, and through Christ, us, His Elect. The image of God is not Adam, the image of God is Christ. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

 

[for_his_glory]

Without holiness no one will see the Lord, Hebrews 12:14.

To be holy means that we are set apart to bring glory and honor to the Lord. This was God's design of creating Adam as he was set apart created in the image of God to be holy unto Him as God set Adam in the garden and gave him dominion over His creation. There was a special fellowship Adam had with God in the beginning, but lost that fellowship as he sinned against God by breaking His commandment/law. Adam knew no sin until the law revealed it to him, Romans 7:7-8.

Yes, the first man, Adam, is of the earth as he was formed from it, which made him earthy, but yet filled with the breath of God that made him a living soul. Christ who is called the second Adam was before the foundation of the world being the holiness that is God.

The holiness we posses is Christ in us as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit upon the Spiritual rebirth of our inner man as this flesh is as a filthy rag to God since the time of Adams fall. We all now have a sin nature (thank you Adam) and through Christ we can be made holy again before the Lord.

 

[turnorburn]

for_his_glory, thanks for stopping by.
Now, if I may...
Your first paragraph is correct IF you are identifying "know" as the knowledge God was trying to equip him with. The fruit did not make him sin-ful, nor did his disobedience, he was created that way. Everything God creates will be fallen short of His glory because it will not possess any of the Deific Attributes of God. There is only ONE God. God CANNOT transfer, re-duplicate, share, give, His glory to no one:

Isaiah 45:6 (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isaiah 43:10 (KJV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Genesis 2:8 the word "formed" is the same word in Hebrew as the word in Isaiah 43:10. Take note.

Isaiah 42:8 (KJV)
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Adam possessed no Deific Attributes of God. Adam was not sinless, Adam was not holy, Adam was not righteous, Adam was not eternal in his creation (he would have eventually died even if he did not eat from the Tree.) He was created fallen short - VERY short of the glory of God. This is why he sinned when tested and educated about his sinful-ness. The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil was used of God to SHOW Adam (and the woman) they were sin-ful. The Greek word "sin" and it's cognates is "missing the mark: [think archery - missing the bullseye, falling short.]
AND the "Thou shalt not" in Genesis 2:17 PROVES he was sin-ful as the Law/Command of God shows US we are sin-ful.

Adam is not made in the image of God. If this is true, then humans AND Christ is in the image of Adam, but I find no passage of Scripture to support this at all. I find the opposite:

1 Corinthians 15:47 (KJV)
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man [Christ] is the Lord from heaven.

QUOTE: "Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground as God breathed His breath of life into Adam making him a living soul. Adam was not created sinful as he was created perfect, but through deceit and being tempted by Satan he became disobedient to God's command and therefore became sinful in the flesh."

RESPONSE: There is nothing Deific about dirt. Dirt possesses NO DEIFIC ATTRIBUTES of God. It's the same dirt you walk on, and if God created a man from this dirt it, too, will be sin-ful.
Adam is earthy. Of the earth. There is nothing 'heavenly' about him. God formed the man from dirt, at this point Adam was a dead soul (the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, senses, conscience and will.) God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and Adam was animated and became a living soul. At the same TIME He breathed US, His Elect, those whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain...into the loins of Adam, to be born into the world at the appointed TIME, and born again at the appointed TIME. There is no 'chance' with God. ALL THINGS are pre-ordained and predestinated. Adam was not perfect. Imperfect does not come from 'perfect.' Adam disobeyed because he was created a sinner who "missed the mark" of the glory of God. You need to think. I'm laying it all out for you. You seem to know your Word and I tilt 51-49% you are of God. But your responses are found in another man's bible-study (commentaries) and are text-book answers, but I hope to believe that the truth WILL get through to you, that the Word of God and reason will win the day. It doesn't have to be today, but seriously consider what I have said above. You seem to omit/ignore the reasonableness of my statements.

Words like "perfect" and "innocent" are catch-phrases and THEY ARE deceit. It's a bi-lateral universe God created: Up-down, in-out, left-right, right-wrong, perfect-imperfect....if Adam was "perfect" as you say, then is it reasonable and even logical that imperfect comes from perfect? Sin comes from sinner, it does not come from holy or 'perfect.' Holiness comes from holy. The second Adam (Christ) proved this. Don't you see it? It's Bible.

In our atonement we are not being conformed into the image of the earthy Adam. We, the Elect of God, are being conformed into the image of Christ who is the image of God:

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

When God breathed into the nostrils of Adam He looked forward to the days post-cross and the Advent of the Holy Spirit through whom we in our salvation become a New man (and woman) in Christ. THAT'S WHO is the image of God. Christ, and through Christ, us, His Elect. The image of God is not Adam, the image of God is Christ. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

(he would have eventually died even if he did not eat from the Tree.)

That simply isn't true..

 

[jeremiah1five]

That simply isn't true..

That's it? No Scripture to support your four words of disbelief?

Eternal-ness is a Deific Attribute. Only God possesses eternal-ness.

But here is something to consider:

Genesis 3:22 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If Adam was already eternal in his creation which is what I would presume upon your comment that you believe, then why would God say and caution that if Adam would 'put forth his hand and eat of the Tree of Life he would live forever' if he was already an eternal creature?

The other thing in this passage of Scripture is that the central thing about the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil is that after eating the fruit from the forbidden tree that now Adam had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil - it didn't make him evil, it only gave him the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil - and that is a mental faculty.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi jeremiah1five
You've written some very interesting comments on creation and I can find much where I agree with you.

For instance, Adam was created with the potential to sin, and I liked your take on how the law, or Gods command shows us our sin. I'm also thinking about what Paul wrote in Roman's 5:12-14.

I dont think I would go as far as to say Adam was created sinful though. The way I understand Genesis 1:26-27 within context shows us that God empowers the earth to bring forth vegetation etc vs 11 and 12. In essence, one way God creates is by empowering His creation. We see this also in the creation of the animals, vs 24 and 25.

When God created humanity, he didnt just empower creation. God actively participated in an intamate way. Thus, let us make man in our image can be understood in the light of what Solomon said in Ecc 12:7
English Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I look at humanity as divine dirt clods lol.

The theology I ascribe to states that every human has that divine spark, it's what makes us human, and the idea of God resonates deeply within us because Gods spirit is part of every humans DNA. This is why Paul writes that we are without excus in Roman's 1:20. Please do not confuse Gods Spirit with the Holy Spirit.

Going back to Adam and Eve, James has this to say about sin and death..
James 1:15
ESV Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

We see this perfectly with Eve. Genesis 3:6a NIV When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

What I glean from these verses is this. Humanity was not created sinful. We were created Holy, and good. However, we were not created perfect as we are currently being perfected through Christ. One could say we are perfectly broken. Instead, humanity was created with the potential to sin, which in your words, gives us the reason why God gave the command not to eat from that tree, and gave its consequence.

We understand that temptation- desire comes before sin and is not sin in itself.

 

[turnorburn]

That's it? No Scripture to support your four words of disbelief?

Eternal-ness is a Deific Attribute. Only God possesses eternal-ness.

But here is something to consider:

Genesis 3:22 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If Adam was already eternal in his creation which is what I would presume upon your comment that you believe, then why would God say and caution that if Adam would 'put forth his hand and eat of the Tree of Life he would live forever' if he was already an eternal creature?

The other thing in this passage of Scripture is that the central thing about the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil is that after eating the fruit from the forbidden tree that now Adam had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil - it didn't make him evil, it only gave him the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil - and that is a mental faculty.

Here's one for starters..

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Here's one for starters..

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

OK.
Now what?

 

[for_his_glory]

That simply isn't true..

Usually you and I agree on many things, but I can't find any scripture that specifically says God intended Adam to live forever, but to only care for His creation and for Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth.

In Genesis 3:22-24 If Adam were to have eaten from the tree of life instead of the tree of knowledge then he would have lived forever and God would had not numbered the days of man.

 

[jeremiah1five]

QUOTE:jeremiah1five[/USER]
You've written some very interesting comments on creation and I can find much where I agree with you.

For instance, Adam was created with the potential to sin, and I liked your take on how the law, or Gods command shows us our sin. I'm also thinking about what Paul wrote in Roman's 5:12-14.
RESPONSE:Hello Stove. I hope you are well today. I would venture to guess that image of you is one of a healthy man.
Now, if I may....
There was no change to Adam when he disobeyed God., except his human spirit died. He was just as you and I. You, I, we all have the potential to sin. That comes from our sin nature. Adam was created with a sin nature, a nature just as yours and mine, one that is sin-ful, or as Strong defines the word, "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory of God (or the glory that is God.)
And we are still in this body of this death. But the man was not responsible. God is. God is responsible for everything that takes place in His creation.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I use Strong's:
"evil" - from [H#7489] (ra`a`); bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral).

And I'm sure other good linguists have the same.

Romans 5:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

There is no difference between the Law of God and His Commands. The Law(s) of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. I agree with Paul. The world was created before man and it was the creation of man into the world scene that sin entered into the world. And death by sin. And verse 13....Until God spoke, sin or "missing the mark" (for even the world and all creation is and was sin-ful), was not imputed. It was after the "thou shalt not" in the Garden that was applied to the man was sin then imputed (or placed on his account) as the word is defined. The man sinned BECAUSE he was created a sinner. His disobedience in eating from the tree did not make him a sinner, or sin-ful. But since you see the "Law/Command" of God in the Garden showing us and the man he was a sinner before he sinned I won't repeat myself.

QUOTE:I dont think I would go as far as to say Adam was created sinful though. The way I understand Genesis 1:26-27 within context shows us that God empowers the earth to bring forth vegetation etc vs 11 and 12. In essence, one way God creates is by empowering His creation. We see this also in the creation of the animals, vs 24 and 25.
When God created humanity, he didnt just empower creation. God actively participated in an intamate way. Thus, let us make man in our image can be understood in the light of what Solomon said in Ecc 12:7
English Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
RESPONSE:Everything that God created at the beginning would have died in TIME. And why would everything die (or waste away, disintegrate)? Because God did not transfer, or copy, or reduplicate, or share, or give His Eternal-ness to created matter. You are familiar with Isaiah 42:8?
Isaiah 42:8 (KJV)
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

God's glory is being Eternal. God's glory is that He is sin-less, that He is omnipotent, that He is holy, that He is righteous, that He is Omniscient, etc. Simply put, God cannot re-duplicate any aspect of these glories and others to anything or anyone. At least, not to man when he was created.
When God blew into the nostrils of the man He did at least two things: He animated man, and He blew His Elect in His loins to be born at the appointed TIME, and born again at the appointed TIME. And He didn't give the Holy Spirit to the man either. Talking about Solomon and the spirit that goes upward is another post, but what he is saying has to do with the soul of God's people. Bodiless souls awaiting a resurrection of the body.

QUOTE: I look at humanity as divine dirt clods lol.
RESPONSE:There is nothing divine about humanity. How can a body of this death in everyone be divine?

QUOTE:The theology I ascribe to states that every human has that divine spark, it's what makes us human, and the idea of God resonates deeply within us because Gods spirit is part of every humans DNA. This is why Paul writes that we are without excuse in Roman's 1:20. Please do not confuse Gods Spirit with the Holy Spirit.
RESPONSE:The only people that are divine are those born of God, or Christians:

2 Peter 1:4 (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Verse 1. Peter is speaking to Believers. WE HAVE this divine nature but it is only Christ in us. He is the Divine One, not us.

QUOTE:Going back to Adam and Eve, James has this to say about sin and death..
James 1:15
ESV Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

We see this perfectly with Eve. Genesis 3:6a NIV When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
What I glean from these verses is this. Humanity was not created sinful. We were created Holy, and good. However, we were not created perfect as we are currently being perfected through Christ. One could say we are perfectly broken. Instead, humanity was created with the potential to sin, which in your words, gives us the reason why God gave the command not to eat from that tree, and gave its consequence.
We understand that temptation- desire comes before sin and is not sin in itself.
RESPONSE:Would a sinless, holy, divine being as you say Adam and the woman were, have such desires and lusts?
Right there is more evidence that the man and woman were created sin-ful ("missing the mark" of the glory of God)
Receive the Word, Stove. It's right there in front of you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Adam does not and did not bear the image of God, but of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ - our Savior. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

That notion is contrary to scripture.
Gen 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[fn] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" and this is why he was a sinner BEFORE he sinned.

Again, scripture does not agree. Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
"Everything" includes Adam. Adam could not be both "good" and "a sinner." at the same time. He can only be one or the other.
The idea that God created Adam as a sinner has no basis whatsoever anywhere in scripture.

And it is illogical to say that someone can be a sinner before they sin. To sin requires that one act. Before Adam acted in sin, he was not a sinner.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That notion is contrary to scripture.
Gen 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[fn] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Again, scripture does not agree. Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
"Everything" includes Adam. Adam could not be both "good" and "a sinner." at the same time. He can only be one or the other.
The idea that God created Adam as a sinner has no basis whatsoever anywhere in scripture.

And it is illogical to say that someone can be a sinner before they sin. To sin requires that one act. Before Adam acted in sin, he was not a sinner.

I agree with the Scripture in Genesis.

Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The image of God is not sin-ful Adam, it is Christ. We believers are being conformed to the image of Christ, not Adam.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV)
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

God ordained that His people that are possessed of the Holy Spirit and have received the new life in Christ and the ones who bear His image. Not the earthy Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:49 (KJV)
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Meaning we are of the earth, earthy. But in our redemption, we shall bear the image of the heavenly which is Christ. Again, our conforming is not the image of Adam, but of Christ. God was thinking of His Holy people, not the unholy Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45-48 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

When God said, let us make man in our image, He wasn't talking about Adam, who is of the earth, and earthy. The only image that corresponds to the holy image of God is a Holy Son, and there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

QUOTE: "Again, scripture does not agree. Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
"Everything" includes Adam. Adam could not be both "good" and "a sinner." at the same time. He can only be one or the other.
The idea that God created Adam as a sinner has no basis whatsoever anywhere in scripture.
And it is illogical to say that someone can be a sinner before they sin. To sin requires that one act. Before Adam acted in sin, he was not a sinner.
RESPONSE: There is no difference between the Law of God and His Commands. The Law(s) of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.
Paul teaches that the existence of the Law (Thou shalt not...) shows us that we are sinners. Paul explains:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

It isn't lust unless God says "thou shalt not covet." Again, the existence of a Law shows us we are sinners.

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The existence of the Command of restriction against a thing proves the man was sin-ful BEFORE he disobeyed. Frankly, the man was a sinner before he sinned. This is why he sinned. sin comes from sinners, sin does not come from holy (or righteous, or sinless-ness, etc.), the last Adam proved this. Christ was holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was sinless.

God does not necessarily deal in logic. He deals in reason.

But back to Paul. Romans 7:7 applies to the man God created sin-ful. There is only One God.

ADAM: "What shall say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it].

Besides this the Doctrine of Imputation is not an act swap, it's a nature-swap.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It doesn't say, "for he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no acts of sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God."

Sin comes from sinners. The man sinned because he was a sinner, he is not a sinner because he sinned.

The last Adam proved this.

Yes, the man can be sin-ful and also good, since the word good in Genesis does not mean "morally good."
The word "good" in Genesis means "to specification" or "good enough."
The word for [morally] good does not appear in these first few chapters in Genesis. What god is saying is that after creating the man, the trees, etc., that they were good, or "to specification" or "good enough" for His purpose.
Animals are not moral and yet God says they are "good," too.
Unless you want to hold that the animals were and are moral.
I think it's call "instinct."

 

[jeremiah1five]

That simply isn't true..

And it "simply isn't true" because..........

 

[Jim Parker]

The image of God is not sin-ful Adam, it is Christ.

The man that God made in His image and likeness was Adam.
Jesus was not "made". He was not created. He is not a creature.
So when Genesis says that God "made" man in His image and likeness it is not talking about Jesus Who was NOT EVER made but was God and with God in the beginning.

And Adam was not a sinner until he sinned. Up until that time, he was sinless.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The man that God made in His image and likeness was Adam.
Adam was not a sinner until he sinned.

And the fact the Command of God "Thou shalt not" which Paul said proves/shows us we are sinners (Rom. 7:7) means nothing?
And the fact that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory to none means nothing?
And the fact that the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 means nothing?
And the fact that if Adam was sinless means that God re-duplicated, shared, gave, transferred, copied His glory into the dirt means that God violated His own Word above in Isaiah means nothing?
And the fact that sin comes from sinner, and sin does not come from holiness as the last Christ proved means nothing?
And the fact that the Doctrine of Imputation is a nature-swap, not an act swap means nothing?
And the fact that God Himself said that the tree He used was to show Adam he was sinful and that the tree was used to give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness, not make him sinful means nothing?
And even the fact that Scripture says the man (Adam) was sown in corruption (created sinful) means nothing?

1 Corinthians 15:42 (KJV)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

EDIT

Let me ask you, Jim Parker, what was Adam in his creation? Was he sinless?

 

[OzSpen]

OK.
Now what?

If everything that God created was 'very good' (Gen 1:31 NIV), God could not have created anything that contradicts God's goodness. In the beginning, He could not have created sinful beings.

What is the goodness of God? What did Jesus ask the rich young ruler? '"
Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone' (Mk 10:18 NIV).

Oz

 

[WIP]

Remember, CFnet is no longer a site for debating. When discussions turn into one side trying to prove the other side wrong, things get sour. Let's try to build each other up in unity rather than building up ourselves by tearing each other down.

 

[OzSpen]

Remember, CFnet is no longer a site for debating. When discussions turn into one side trying to prove the other side wrong, things get sour. Let's try to build each other up in unity rather than building up ourselves by tearing each other down.

WIP,

Are you confirming that on CFnet posters no longer will be able to practise these biblical requirements:

1. 'But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.... It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud"' (1 Pet 2:1-2, 21-22 NIV).

2. ' Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people' (Jude 1:3 NIV).

3. 'The one who refuses correction despises himself, but whoever hears reproof acquires understanding' (Prov 15:32 NET).

4. ' My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from his wandering path will save that person’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins' (James 5:19-20 NET).

Am I no longer able to apply these biblical standards on CFnet?

Sincerely,

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

WIP,

Are you confirming that on CFnet posters no longer will be able to practise these biblical requirements:

1. 'But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.... It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud"' (1 Pet 2:1-2, 21-22 NIV).

2. ' Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people' (Jude 1:3 NIV).

3. 'The one who refuses correction despises himself, but whoever hears reproof acquires understanding' (Prov 15:32 NET).

4. ' My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, he should know that the one who turns a sinner back from his wandering path will save that person’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins' (James 5:19-20 NET).

Am I no longer able to apply these biblical standards on CFnet?

Sincerely,

Oz

Hi Oz, I'll be glad to answer that.
First, take a second look at our Community Message and read it with a fresh set of eyes.

For too long this forum has bred the stench of division. Brother tearing down brother and going for the jugular. Pride will do that every time, and what's worse is when the offenders justify it.

It's pretty simple. Discuss anything you want, but leave room for the others view and extend grace. When heels get dug in, nobody wins. If folks want to argue for the sake of being right, they can leave before we ban them. Those days are over.

Learn to be United in our differences. If a wacko comes on, report them and let the Admins take care of it.