What I said is true. All the scriptures you're bringing up are about the offspring of Adam and Eve who were born in sin because of the fact that Adam and Eve disobeyed God concerning the forbidden tree, it was then when Adam and Eve disobeyed God that death came into existence and the scriptures show sin is the cause of death. So it was Adam and Eve disobedience regarding that forbidden tree that caused sin and death to come into existence, not because God was asking something that was impossible for them to do meaning obeying the command to not eat of the forbidden tree so it wasn't because God created them with the purpose for them to be disobedient. God created them very good, just as the scriptures say at Genesis 1:31, which means that creation including Adam and Eve met the true God's perfect standards, of how he had created Adam and Eve. This means that when God gave the command to Adam to not eat of the forbidden tree God wasn't commanding him to do something that was impossible for Adam or Eve to obey.
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GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
I choose to reason on the scriptures. The scriptures say that
death came into existence because of Adam and Eve's disobedience, regarding the forbidden tree, you know this. The scriptures also show we who are Adam and Eve's offspring inherited sin and death from Adam, and God shows us when he inspired Paul to write Romans 6:23 that its sin that causes death. Disobedience has always been considered a sin to God. Nowhere in scripture does it say that it's something else other than sin that causes death. So since Adam and Eve were given the death sentence by God for their disobedience, and disobedience has always been something that God has always viewed as a sin, then yes, the scriptures are teaching us that Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God.
Now you're walking it back.
How can you apply a passage in Hebrews specifically describing Jesus Christ, the Holy One, and apply it to us sinners?
Misapplication of Scripture.
Jesus was separate from sinners in that He was Holy.
Adam was not holy. He was a sinner which is why he sinned.
It's that simple. Sin comes from sinners. That's why Adam sinned. He was a sinner. The 'Thou shalt not' proves he was a sinner before the act of sin and the act itself proves the command after the fact.
There is no verse in the entire Bible that as much as implies that Adam was created a sinner. After God created Adam and Eve, he saw that everything he made “was very good.” You are essentially calling the sinful nature very good, in which case, we don’t need a saviour and sim is meaningless. Even worse, you’re implying that the sinful nature is made in the image of God, which means that God has a sinful nature. Utter blasphemy.
Adam wasn’t created a sinner, he was created with the ability to choose between having God as his God or having self as god. Adam (and Eve) rebelled against God because they were deceived and and stopped trusting what God has said was truth. He chose self as god and that is why he became a sinner. That is why God cursed the ground, increased the pain of childbearing, and kicked them out of the Garden.
There is NOTHING in the passage you quote in Romans that refers to the forbidden tree.
You are adding to the Bible and there's a curse in Revelation to those that do that.
Sin comes from sinner. Adam sinned proving he was a sinner before the act of sin, which is why he disobeyed God. He was created a sinner. The "Thou shalt not" in Genesis 2:17 shows that he was a sinner.
Death came into existence by the mere creation of the man and the woman BEFORE the act of sin (disobedience).
Adam was not created holy as sin, his sin, does not come from holy. Sin comes from sinners. It's not that hard to understand. Say it with me...sin comes FROM SINNER.
Even IF Adam and Eve wouldn't have disobeyed (sinned) they STILL would have died in time. That's because they were not created with an eternal nature as God possesses. And if Adam had ALL the attributes of God but was not eternal he would have fallen short of the glory of God. ONLY ONE PERSON, JUST ONE, can stand before a Holy God and that is the Holy Son.
There is ONLY ONE GOD, there is NO ONE - Adam included - like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Adam sinned because he was created fallen short of the glory of God and the Greek word for that is 'harmatia' which is translated into English as 'sin/sinner.'
You won't find a passage of Scripture in the Old Testament that God is three Persons. That theology was discerned AFTER the Advent of the Son. So, with regard to Adam's creation there are several Scripture that address his fallen nature which is why he sinned and disobeyed God. Sin comes from sinner. Adam sinned proving that he was a sinner BEFORE the act of disobedience.
AGAIN, the word 'good' used to describe God calling His creative acts 'good' means 'to specifications,' or 'good enough.' You want to give the word a moral meaning and it doesn't have anything to do with morality. That word is elsewhere in Scripture but not here where God says 'and everything was very good.'
The 'herb bearing seed, the tree yielding seed, the beasts of the earth God called 'good.' Surely by your theology of affixing 'morally goodness to a seed or seeds or beasts of the earth cannot be seen as sound doctrine. There is no morals where seed of herbs and trees and beasts of the field cannot be moral. Besides, the serpent is a beast of the field. Are you sure you want to apply 'good' in a moral sense to the serpent? So, your understanding that God calling the results of His various acts of creation as morally 'good' falls apart.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Gen. 3:1. The serpent is not 'morally good' as ypou say, but he was made good 'to specifications' and 'good enough.'
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:16–17.
The 'thou shalt not takes us forward to the Ten Commandments which its mere existence SHOWS US SINNERS before any act on our part of sin. THOU SHALT NOT have other gods before me....THOU SHALT NOT take the name of the LORD your God in vain....THOU SHALT NOT bear false witness and the others, as Paul described, SHOWS US WE ARE SINNERS.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom. 7:7–11.
The commandment in the garden of Eden PROVES the commandment shows Adam was a sinner BEFORE he disobeyed.
Adam sinned BECAUSE he was a sinner. He is NOT a sinner because he sinned.
God tested Adam and Eve when he told them not to eat from the forbidden tree. That doesn't make Adam and Eve sinners because God tested them. God’s test of Adam's obedience and devotion is notable for the respect it showed for Adam's dignity. By this test God attributed nothing bad to Adam; God did not use as a test by telling Adam to abstain, from bestiality, murder, or some similar vile or base act, thereby implying that God felt Adam might have some despicable inclinations residing within him. Eating was normal, proper, and Adam had been told to “eat to satisfaction” of what God had given him. (Genesis 2:16) But God now tested Adam by restricting his eating of the fruit of this one tree, God thus causing the eating of that fruit to symbolize that the eater comes to a knowledge that enables him to decide for himself what is “good” or what is “bad” for humanity. So, God neither imposed a hardship on Adam or Eve nor did He attribute to Adam anything beneath his dignity as a human son of God. By Adam and Eve continuing to refrain from eating of this one tree, they would recognize that it was the true God who had the right to decide what is good(what is in the best interests) of humanity and what was evil(what isn't in the best interests) of humanity. They failed this test and decided that they can decide for themselves what is good(what's in the best interests) of humanity, and what is evil(what isn't in the best interests) of humanity.
No, he wasn’t created a sinner. There is not a single verse on the Bible try at even implies that God created Adam a sinner. You chastised someone else for adding to Scripture but now you are doing the same.
There is no reason, especially since humans are made in the image of God, that Adam and Eve were created holy and morally perfect, but given the capacity to choose to follow God or rebel, hence the test of the tree. If God created Adam and Eve sinful, that whole tree bit was pointless, as was their punishment.
And, you still have the problem that the sinful nature would then be made in the image of God, which means that God has a sinful nature. That is blasphemy.
So, from your position that Adam and Eve were holy and morally perfect the conclusion in holding to that belief is that sin comes from holy.
What capacity. The bondage of sin makes you a servant to and of sin. Paul teaches this:
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Rom. 6:20.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom. 6:16.
Adam sinned because he was a sinner. THOU SHALT NOT proves it.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom. 7:7–12.
Here's the commandment God gave to Adam proving he was a sinner before he disobeyed (sinned).
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.
Adam sinned because he was a sinner.
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Sam. 24:13.
That's the same thing as saying, 'sin comes from sinner.'
No, that clearly isn’t what I said. It comes from the moral choice to do evil, to rebel against God. Besides, angels are holy and morally perfect, yet 1/3 of them chose to rebel as well.
Thou shalt not, or, as we say in modern times, “You shall not,” proves nothing. It is just a command that God have to Adam and Eve to test them.
And the image of God is Christ, not dirt.
How does this post address what I said? Of course sinners sin post Fall, but there isn’t a single verse that even implies Adam was a sinner before he actually chose to sin.
If Adam sinned because he was a sinner, why did 1/3 of the angels sin and 2/3 not sin? Did God make some angels sinners and others holy?
What does this even address? Do you deny that God made man in his image, despite the very clear teaching in Genesis 1:26-27?
Again:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom. 7:7–11.
Adam was not holy. He sinned and sin does NOT come from holy. That should be your first clue.
THOU SHALT NOT still means something despite the times we live in. I mean, it means a great deal to Christians.
Again:
Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.
That's like saying if Adam were talking..."I had not known disobedience except the Law/Command had said, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it."
Adam was not holy. There is no choice when one is in BONDAGE to sin.
The image of God is Christ, not Adam.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is cthe Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Cor. 15:45–49.
According to Paul we have yet to bear the image of the heavenly, that spirit (God is Spirit) from above. From Adam until God changes our bodies in a twinkle twinkle of an eye we are all bearing the image of the earthy not the heavenly or spiritual.
So, until the Advent of Christ who will change our bodies we all bear the image of the earthy. And there is distinction between the image of God of the heavenly and the image of dirt in the earthy.
You're conflating the law of Moses with a single command from God to Adam and Eve. I noticed that you skipped the first part of my post, why is that? Care to address it? I'll post it again:
No, that clearly isn’t what I said. It comes from the moral choice to do evil, to rebel against God. Besides, angels are holy and morally perfect, yet 1/3 of them chose to rebel as well.
You again skipped a portion of my post, why is that? Here it is again:
If Adam sinned because he was a sinner, why did 1/3 of the angels sin and 2/3 not sin? Did God make some angels sinners and others holy?
Okay, but, again, how does this address my post? And you yet again skipped part of my post. Here it is again:
Do you deny that God made man in his image, despite the very clear teaching in Genesis 1:26-27?
He is indeed, but he is juxtaposing those who walk in darkness against those who walk in the light.
Only some of the verses apply to each set.
You do know, I hope, that the gift of repentance from sin has been given to the Gentiles too?
Men don't sin. after turning from sin.
More sin shows the repentance was a lie to God.
I don't agree for a second.
Testify of my sin or recant that.