GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[BB1956]

Question:

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

Which?

Back to this now huh, couldn't answer my question in post #118?interesting!
The question you're asking me here is a trick question because you believe God created Adam a sinner, I believe God created Adam sinless.
Also I believe it's you who is teaching or trying to teach that sin comes from holy. After all you're the one saying that God created Adam a sinner. That means you're teaching that God is the source of all that which is demonic. Why do I say that, because things like bitter jealousy and contentiousness, is demonic. And people who are sinners or who are sinful are the ones who do such things.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You and I are going to disagree because I honestly believe you're ignoring scripture, and want people to go by your interpretation of scripture instead. Not that you don't have a right to your interpretation, I just don't agree with it. The scriptures you give I disagree supports you're belief. I find nowhere in scripture that God planned, or that it was God's purpose for Adam to die.The fact that in scripture God said to Adam, to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil, is proof that God didn't want Adam to die. If It was God's plan, God's purpose, or as you say Adam would have died anyway, then why would God give him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree,, and say he would die if he did if as you say he would have died anyway if he didn't eat from the forbidden tree. If Adam was going to die anyway then what was the point of the command God gave Adam regarding the forbidden tree, and why would God say he would die if he did if God knew he was going to die anyway. That command makes no sense whatsoever if Adam was going to die anyway, as you say. I honestly don't think God gives any commands that serve no purpose. So what was the purpose of the command to not eat from the forbidden, if as you believe it's because God created Adam short of his glory so you believe God created Adam sinful or a sinner and was going to die anyway.

Man is a trichotomy, that is, a three-part being: body, soul, and spirit. At leaset, that's how God created Adam.

When Adam ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil God promise Adam would die "in that day." Tell me, what part of Adam died "in that day" he ate from the Tree?

Secondly, if Adam was eternal as some in Christendom believe, why would God prevent Adam and the woman from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever if they were already eternal?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Adam was holy, non-sinning, righteous, sinless man...until he sinned.

So then, you believe sin comes from holy.

Now the question begs to be asked: God is Holy. HOW LONG BEFORE God sin if sin comes from holy, as you say and believe?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Back to this now huh, couldn't answer my question in post #118?interesting!
The question you're asking me here is a trick question because you believe God created Adam a sinner, I believe God created Adam sinless.
Also I believe it's you who is teaching or trying to teach that sin comes from holy. After all you're the one saying that God created Adam a sinner. That means you're teaching that God is the source of all that which is demonic. Why do I say that, because things like bitter jealousy and contentiousness, is demonic. And people who are sinners or who are sinful are the ones who do such things.

If Adam was sinless then you believe that sin comes from holy.

And

No. God is absolved of any unrighteousness because BEFORE He created man and creation a Lamb was slain from the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8).

But given your answers on this thread I doubt you understand the significance.

But go ahead. Take a shot.

 

[Hopeful]

So then, you believe sin comes from holy.

How can one without the knowledge of good or evil be holy?
Adam was just a man.
Were he holy, he would not have disobeyed God.
Why do you consider the pre-sinning man holy?

Now the question begs to be asked: God is Holy. HOW LONG BEFORE God sin if sin comes from holy, as you say and believe?

God is holy. Unconverted man is not.

 

[for_his_glory]

First of all, why are you asking me where is the word "punished" in Exodus 34:6, 7 when the word in the scripture Exodus 34:6, 7 I quoted from my Bible is, "unpunished." The word unpunished is right there in post #113 of what I texted.
Second at Exodus 34:7 that you quoted, "

I'm sorry, but I do not see the word punished or unpunished in those scriptures as I use the KJV.

God is not going to clear the guilty unless they repent and turn back to Him. God does not have to punish anyone as they will have punished themselves and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved, John 3:19-20. Those who walk in disobedience have condemned themselves as God's judgement will come against them in final judgement.

 

[BB1956]

Man is a trichotomy, that is, a three-part being: body, soul, and spirit. At leaset, that's how God created Adam.

When Adam ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil God promise Adam would die "in that day." Tell me, what part of Adam died "in that day" he ate from the Tree?

Secondly, if Adam was eternal as some in Christendom believe, why would God prevent Adam and the woman from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever if they were already eternal?

Human beings are souls they don't have souls, and the spirit in human beings is the same spirit that's in animals. Genesis 2:7 teaches us that God took dust from the ground and formed the dust into a flesh and blood human body. Then he blew the breath(spirit) of life, into the flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body, became a living soul or living person.

So it's obvious from what Genesis 2:7 is saying, that the breath(spirit) of life wasn't a living person blown into the flesh and blood human body, because if that were true then Genesis 2:7 would say that God GAVE the flesh and blood human body a living soul or living person. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that though, it says that after God had formed a flesh and blood human body from the dust of the ground then blew the breath(spirit) of life into that flesh and blood human body, that flesh and blood human body BECAME a living soul or living person.

The point I'm making here is that when Adam ate from the forbidden tree and he eventually died of old age, he stopped being a living soul or living person. He went back into the ground from which he was taken, because before God had made Adam a living soul or living person Adam didn't exist as a living soul or living person.

When God created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden called Eden, God wanted them to live forever. For that to happen Adam and Eve had to love God so much that they would exercise faith that only the true God YHWH who is the creator, had the right to decide what is in the best interests of Adam and Eve(what is good) and what is not in the best interests of Adam and Eve(what is evil). So Adam and Eve and their offspring, all of humanity, would be sinless and not dying today if Adam and Eve had not eaten from the forbidden tree.

 

[BB1956]

I'm sorry, but I do not see the word punished or unpunished in those scriptures as I use the KJV.

God is not going to clear the guilty unless they repent and turn back to Him. God does not have to punish anyone as they will have punished themselves and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved, John 3:19-20. Those who walk in disobedience have condemned themselves as God's judgement will come against them in final judgement.

I disagree, when that scripture says that God isn't going to clear the guilty that means God will punish those who are guilty and unrepentant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, Adam received punishment for his disobedience. But if God did not command THOU SHALT NOT there would be no disobedience because 'by the law is the knowledge of sin.'
Rom. 3:20.

And it was the mere command of God (THOU SHALT NOT) by which the Scripture teaches that Adam was a sinner BEFORE he sinned. By the Law (or Command) is the knowledge of sin. Sin comes from sinner. Wickedness comes from the wicked. Adam sinned and disobeyed God's command because he was a sinner. It's not hard to understand.

By the way, even if Adam was not under restriction of command and if no command of THOU SHALT NOT he would have eventually died. He was NOT eternal.

Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22.

I know what some are going to say, "God didn't want him to live forever in 'that' sinful condition.'" Well, if eating from the Tree of Life would give Adam eternal life, then he wasn't eternal to begin with. This fact also proves Adam was created sin-ful, and as the word in Greek [harmatia] is defined ('missing the mark') this shows Adam was fallen short of the glory of God. And this means sin-ful.

Very interesting about Adam not being immortal because he was not allowed to eat from the tree of life.

It's generally accepted that one of the preternatural gifts of Adam was immortality.

The NT does address the problem of man's death. With sin came death. So doesn't that mean that before Adam sinned there was no death?

 

[GodsGrace]

Human beings are souls they don't have souls, and the spirit in human beings is the same spirit that's in animals. Genesis 2:7 teaches us that God took dust from the ground and formed the dust into a flesh and blood human body. Then he blew the breath(spirit) of life, into the flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body, became a living soul or living person.

So it's obvious from what Genesis 2:7 is saying, that the breath(spirit) of life wasn't a living person blown into the flesh and blood human body, because if that were true then Genesis 2:7 would say that God GAVE the flesh and blood human body a living soul or living person. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that though, it says that after God had formed a flesh and blood human body from the dust of the ground then blew the breath(spirit) of life into that flesh and blood human body, that flesh and blood human body BECAME a living soul or living person.

The point I'm making here is that when Adam ate from the forbidden tree and he eventually died of old age, he stopped being a living soul or living person. He went back into the ground from which he was taken, because before God had made Adam a living soul or living person Adam didn't exist as a living soul or living person.

When God created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden called Eden, God wanted them to live forever. For that to happen Adam and Eve had to love God so much that they would exercise faith that only the true God YHWH who is the creator, had the right to decide what is in the best interests of Adam and Eve(what is good) and what is not in the best interests of Adam and Eve(what is evil). So Adam and Eve and their offspring, all of humanity, would be sinless and not dying today if Adam and Eve had not eaten from the forbidden tree.

Animals don't have a spirit.
Only a body and soul.

 

[BB1956]

If Adam was sinless then you believe that sin comes from holy.

And

No. God is absolved of any unrighteousness because BEFORE He created man and creation a Lamb was slain from the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8).

But given your answers on this thread I doubt you understand the significance.

But go ahead. Take a shot.

In the scriptures, there is a clear connection of kosmos with the world of mankind and it aids one in understanding what is meant by “the foundation of the world,” as referred to in a number of scriptures. These scriptures speak of certain things as taking place ‘from the foundation of the world.’ These include the ‘shedding of the blood of the prophets’ from the time of Abel onward, a ‘kingdom prepared,’ and ‘names being written on the scroll of life.’ (Luke 11:50, 51; Matthew 25:34; Revelations 13:8; 17:8; compare Matthew 13:35; Hebrew 9:26.) Such things relate to human life and activity, and so “the foundaton of the world” must relate to the beginning of mankind, not of the inanimate creation or the animal creation, or before Gid created Adam and Eve. Hebrews 4:3 shows that God’s creative works were, not started, but “finished from the foundation of the world.” Since Eve was evidently the last of YHWH God's earthly creative works, the world’s foundation could not precede her.

The Greek term (katabole) for “founding” can refer to the conceiving of seed in human conception. katabole literally means “a throwing down [of seed]” and at Hebrews 11:11 may be rendered “conceive." Its use there evidently refers to Abraham’s ‘throwing down’ human seed for the begetting of a son and Sarah’s receiving that seed so as to be fertilized.

Therefore “the founding of the world” need not be taken to mean the beginning of the creation of the material universe, nor does the expression “before the foundation of the world” (John 17:5, 24; Ephesians 1:4; 1Peter 1:20) refer to a point of time prior to the creation of the material universe. Rather, these expressions evidently relate to the time when the human race was ‘founded’ through the first human pair, Adam and Eve, who, outside of Eden, began to conceive seed that could benefit from God’s provisions for deliverance from inherited sin.(Genesis 3:20-24; 4:1, 2)

So before children were born to Adam and Eve, YHWH God indicated that there would be enmity between the ‘seed of the woman’ and the ‘seed of the serpent.’ (Genesis 3:15) so from the foundation of the world it had already been determined that no worshiper of the wild beast would have his name written in the Lamb’s scroll. Only persons sacred from God’s standpoint were to be so privileged.
But from the foundation of the world, does not mean before Adam and Eve were created. Genesis 3:15 was stated after Adam and Eve had sinned, but before they had children. So from the Foundation of the world would be when Adam and Eve began having children and onward.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How can one without the knowledge of good or evil be holy?
Adam was just a man.
Were he holy, he would not have disobeyed God.
Why do you consider the pre-sinning man holy?

God is holy. Unconverted man is not.

QUOTE: Were he holy he would not have disobeyed God.
RESPONSE: That's correct. So, if he wasn't holy he was 'less' than God and that would make him sin-ful before he disobeyed God because sin does not come from holy, sin comes from sinners.

QUOTE: Why do you consider the pre-sinning man holy?
RESPONSE: I don't. God created Adam sin-ful. The word 'sin-ful' comes from the Greek word 'harmatia' which means "missing the mark" [think archery]. So what is the 'mark' he missed? There's only one standard in all creation: the glory of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

QUOTE: Were he holy he would not have disobeyed God.
RESPONSE: That's correct. So, if he wasn't holy he was 'less' than God and that would make him sin-ful before he disobeyed God because sin does not come from holy, sin comes from sinners.

QUOTE: Why do you consider the pre-sinning man holy?
RESPONSE: I don't. God created Adam sin-ful. The word 'sin-ful' comes from the Greek word 'harmatia' which means "missing the mark" [think archery]. So what is the 'mark' he missed? There's only one standard in all creation: the glory of God.

Please reply to my post regarding death.

Also, why would God make man sinful?
Did God predestinate Adam's sin?
If so, why did God abolish Adam from the Garden for doing what God planned for Adam to do?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Very interesting about Adam not being immortal because he was not allowed to eat from the tree of life.

It's generally accepted that one of the preternatural gifts of Adam was immortality.

The NT does address the problem of man's death. With sin came death. So doesn't that mean that before Adam sinned there was no death?

Honestly, there is no mention of 'sinning' or 'disobedience' in the passage we are addressing:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression
Rom. 5:12–14.

If there was no "Thou Shalt Not" in the garden and Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there would be no sin. Right?
But since there was a law, and the law shows us we are sinners, this, along with other facts show that Adam was (created) a sinner or sin-ful BEFORE he ate from the tree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Honestly, there is no mention of 'sinning' or 'disobedience' in the passage we are addressing:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression
Rom. 5:12–14.

If there was no "Thou Shalt Not" in the garden and Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there would be no sin. Right?
But since there was a law, and the law shows us we are sinners, this, along with other facts show that Adam was (created) a sinner or sin-ful BEFORE he ate from the tree.

There are serious misunderstandings here....
So I'll need my computer.
Later.

 

[for_his_glory]

I disagree, when that scripture says that God isn't going to clear the guilty that means God will punish those who are guilty and unrepentant.

We just see it differently. We know that the wages of sin is death and complete separation from God. Unless one repents and turns back to God they have damned themselves.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Man is not created sinful as what God created, including man and woman, he saw that it was good and pleasing to Him. We are not born with a sin nature as that does not reflect the image of God in which we were created in, but we are born into a world of iniquity and all have that nature to sin since the fall of Adam. This is why Christ was before the foundation of the world as God's plan of salvation to whosoever will believe in Him receiving life eternal with Jesus.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Please reply to my post regarding death.

Also, why would God make man sinful?
Did God predestinate Adam's sin?
If so, why did God abolish Adam from the Garden for doing what God planned for Adam to do?

First, let me commend you for your questions. They are very good questions and they show me you are THINKING and applying the grey matter (your brain) to my posts. Kudos to you.

QUOTE: Please reply to my post regarding death.

QUOTE: Also, why would God make man sinful?
RESPONSE: God created man sin-ful "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" because that's they only way he can be created. When you take what Isaiah said that "there is only one God" and "there is none like Him" and He "[God] gives His glory to no one," then what conclusion can one reach when that is applied to Adam. I know the church today teach Adam was created holy, or righteous, or sinless, or innocent (whatever that means), but that is not what my studies have revealed and I believe I have rightly divided the word of truth. Having said that, God controls how much 'light' a person and a generation receives and if in the past the teaching that Adam was holy was developed based on the luminosity of the light given to that generation then I believe God is giving more light to this generation of believers to come to the knowledge of the truth. I am not the only one who sees this about Adam. At other forums I have interacted with many who hold to what I post about man (Adam.)
Another thing. Only the Holy Son can stand before a Holy God (the Father). So, if Adam was holy, then he would have to possess ALL the Deific attributes of God (eternal, all-wise, all-knowing, omnipotent, etc., or else he would still fall short of the glory of God. He would be "missing the mark" and the Greek word is still "harmatia" which is translated "sin."

QUOTE: Did God predestinate Adam's sin?
RESPONSE: He had to. God knows He cannot nor will not reduplicate or copy or transfer His glory to dirt and He didn't. The way you are today in your being is the way Adam was in his. There was no glow around him, there was no halo. All that are figments of supernaturalism that cannot apply to a sin-ful man. I agree that in the 70s or was it the 80s that scientists found a microscopic glow around both leaves of plants and humans, but that life-giving force of the creative acts of God are not like what they depict in renaissance paintings and such of the past. You know those artworks that show a glow around the head of the apostles or even of Jesus (but no one knows what Jesus looks like), and the shroud of Turin is a fake. Adam was just like you and me. Flesh.

QUOTE: If so, why did God abolish Adam from the Garden for doing what God planned for Adam to do?
RESPONSE: I believe it was and is the plan of God to call out a people from the mass of humanity to Himself (John 17). It's called salvation history, or redemptive history. It was the Father's plan, the Son implemented that plan, and the Holy Spirit in the world today is applying that plan to God's Elect. We are living in the Times of the Gentiles but soon God will turn His attention to Israel because He still has some Promises to fulfill He gave to Abraham, David, and His Son, the King of Israel.

It is all about God's Son. He is the central point in all history. All we are, all the Church is, is a gift to His Son. And Christ died for His Church (Eph. 5).
Now, what do you say, wondering?

 

[for_his_glory]

God created Adam sin-ful.

According to you, but not according to scripture or you would have posted that scripture where God created Adam sinful.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Vs. 31 includes Adam that was made in the image of God and God blessed Adam and Eve. Is God's image sinful and does He bless sinners for that is what you are teaching whether you realize it or not.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Animals don't have a spirit.
Only a body and soul.

I believe God created Adam and Eve trichotomy, that is, body, soul, and spirit.
God told Adam that in the day he eats of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die. Well, he ate of the tree and in accordance to the promise of God Adam died in that day.
But being trichotomy what part of him died? It wasn't his soul because the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, and will. His body didn't die because he lived to be 930 years old. It must've been his human spirit (not the Holy Spirit, but a human spirit that allowed God and he to communicate. After he sinned the communication changed. By the way, the human spirit allows spiritual communication with God and allows us to process spiritual phenomenon. When we are born again God creates a new human spirit in the believer so we may communicate with God - who is Spirit - and process spiritual phenomenon like the Gifts of the Spirit.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

According to you, but not according to scripture or you would have posted that scripture where God created Adam sinful.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Vs. 31 includes Adam that was made in the image of God and God blessed Adam and Eve. Is God's image sinful and does He bless sinners for that is what you are teaching whether you realize it or not.

The Law shows us we are sinners.
And the Law was in the garden of Eden BEFORE Adam sinned:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.

In the garden, before Adam sinned by disobeying God, God put down the Law, as they say:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

Paul also said:

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom. 7:8–12.

Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.