GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

There are serious misunderstandings here....
So I'll need my computer.
Later.

Later alligator.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe God created Adam and Eve trichotomy, that is, body, soul, and spirit.
God told Adam that in the day he eats of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die. Well, he ate of the tree and in accordance to the promise of God Adam died in that day.
But being trichotomy what part of him died? It wasn't his soul because the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, and will. His body didn't die because he lived to be 930 years old. It must've been his human spirit (not the Holy Spirit, but a human spirit that allowed God and he to communicate. After he sinned the communication changed. By the way, the human spirit allows spiritual communication with God and allows us to process spiritual phenomenon. When we are born again God creates a new human spirit in the believer so we may communicate with God - who is Spirit - and process spiritual phenomenon like the Gifts of the Spirit.)

What died in Adam that day in his disobedience to God's command was that Spiritual fellowship he had with God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God since that day. In order to gain that Spiritual relationship back is to be Spiritually born again from above as we humble our heart before the Lord and repent of our sin.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This is putting on the new Spiritual self as we have died to the lust of the flesh and walk in newness of life.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Law shows us we are sinners.
And the Law was in the garden of Eden BEFORE Adam sinned:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.

In the garden, before Adam sinned by disobeying God, God put down the Law, as they say:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

Paul also said:

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom. 7:8–12.

Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.

Still can't answer my question can you,

I will ask you one more time. Where is the scripture where you say God created Adam sinful?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Very interesting about Adam not being immortal because he was not allowed to eat from the tree of life.

It's generally accepted that one of the preternatural gifts of Adam was immortality.

The NT does address the problem of man's death. With sin came death. So doesn't that mean that before Adam sinned there was no death?

Creation as a whole suffers from what is called "the law of entropy.'

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom. 8:22.

Scientists within the last 100 years or so have only understood when looking at the beginning of the universe discovered that everything is degenerating into chaos. Everything dies. The earth is dying and degenerating into chaos. Earthquakes, volcanoes are all evidence of this fact. Even stars that go supernova are evidence of this chaos. But it takes time. Man, too, was created to die. And since Adam and Eve all children born into the world in time die. Adam was not created eternal. Even if he didn't eat from the tree he would have in time die. He wasn't eternal. Eternal-ness is an attribute of God. God is eternal. Not His creation.
Adam was a sinner (created sin-ful) before the actual disobedience he committed. Sin comes from sinner.

Yes, I know the church today and in the past teach Adam was immortal, but he was not. Preventing Adam from the tree of life which would allow them to live forever is evidence of his lack.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What died in Adam that day in his disobedience to God's command was that Spiritual fellowship he had with God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God since that day. In order to gain that Spiritual relationship back is to be Spiritually born again from above as we humble our heart before the Lord and repent of our sin.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This is putting on the new Spiritual self as we have died to the lust of the flesh and walk in newness of life.

I'll agree with that.

But one thing...repentance is a gift of God. No one can repent of their sin unless God grants it. And if God grants it then that is evidence that person is being and has been drawn by the Father.

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life Acts. 11:18.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Still can't answer my question can you,

I will ask you one more time. Where is the scripture where you say God created Adam sinful?

Jesus asked the religious leaders who asked him by what authority he did the things he did. He answered a question with a question. So, I'll ask you a question and if you answer me with Scripture, I will answer you with Scripture.

Where in Scripture does it say God is a Trinity?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'm sorry, but I do not see the word punished or unpunished in those scriptures as I use the KJV.

God is not going to clear the guilty unless they repent and turn back to Him. God does not have to punish anyone as they will have punished themselves and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved, John 3:19-20. Those who walk in disobedience have condemned themselves as God's judgement will come against them in final judgement.

Notice that those in John 3:18-19 who do not come to the light [Christ] are condemned ALREADY.
This speaks to their election to eternal punishment (in the lake of fire.)
God is Immutable. He doesn't change. He's not going to say 'you' are condemned and then tomorrow or next week change His mind and save 'you.'
Everything is locked into place. God is not waiting around to see who will 'accept His Son,' that's not biblical. He's actively calling out a people to Himself. Election. Predestination.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
Jn. 17:6.

 

[Tenchi]

The Law shows us we are sinners.
And the Law was in the garden of Eden BEFORE Adam sinned:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.

In the garden, before Adam sinned by disobeying God, God put down the Law, as they say:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

The Law of God makes sinners of us when we contravene it. The mere existence of God's Law doesn't make all people who are under it automatically guilty. Nowhere in Scripture does God indicate that a man who has only stolen from his neighbor ought to be punished for murder, and adultery, and rape, too. That would be unjust. God condemns a person for that of which they are actually guilty, not for simply existing under His Law. So, too, Adam and Eve in Eden. Only when they had eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and thus had actually disobeyed Him does God punish them for defying His command. The mere issuance of the divine command not to eat the Forbidden Fruit did not make Adam and Eve guilty - that is to say, sinful - which is why, having issued His command about the Forbidden Fruit, God continued to commune with Adam and Eve in Eden, content for them to dwell in the Garden and walk with Him in the cool of the day.

Paul also said:

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom. 7:8–12.

Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.

Did Paul identify himself as one who was guilty of breaking all of God's commands? No. He never claimed that the mere existence of God's Law, and his knowledge of it, made him immediately guilty of all sin. Paul's point was that lust and concupiscence are sinful because God has said that they are. This is basic Divine Command Theory. If God does not prohibit knitting sweaters, or picking daisies, doing so isn't sinful. If God says, "Don't covet your neighbor's wife," or "You shall not murder," we know that doing so is morally wrong. This is all that Paul is saying, essentially. He does indicate, however, that, because of our natural inclination toward sinful selfishness inherited from Adam, we are inflamed to sin by God's commands. At our core, we don't like being told what to do; we naturally resist authority and control; we tend toward pathological selfishness which God's commands sharply constrain. And so, His Law provokes us to rebelliousness and sin rather than moving us to moral conduct, as it would have done had Adam not sinned and cursed us with a natural, inherited proclivity toward unrestrained selfishness (and into the sin it always produces).

It's...strange to me to see how tangled you've become in your thinking on these matters. But pride leads to being unteachable, which always leads to confusion about matters that are actually relatively simple to understand. Anyway, as a general rule, the more complicated you are in your explanation of an idea, and the more lines of explanation you employ to support that idea, the less likely it is to be true. See the principle of Occham's Razor. Multiplying explanations unnecessarily is a sign you've quite possibly got the wrong end of the stick about your idea. And so, when I consider your thinking and recognize that no one reading Scripture in a straightforward, natural way would ever arrive at the convolutions of your thinking, I am alerted to the high likelihood of the falsity of what you're proposing. This isn't the only basis for looking askance at your view about sin, of course. See above.

 

[BB1956]

We just see it differently. We know that the wages of sin is death and complete separation from God. Unless one repents and turns back to God they have damned themselves.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Man is not created sinful as what God created, including man and woman, he saw that it was good and pleasing to Him. We are not born with a sin nature as that does not reflect the image of God in which we were created in, but we are born into a world of iniquity and all have that nature to sin since the fall of Adam. This is why Christ was before the foundation of the world as God's plan of salvation to whosoever will believe in Him receiving life eternal with Jesus.

Well we possibly see death and the complete separation from God differently as well. I believe when a human being is dead he/she is no longer a living human being, so he/she is no longer in existence as a living human being. But God who can read minds and hearts of all human beings can judge at death whether that human being deserves a resurrection or not. If God judges a human being deserving of a resurrection then that human being is in God's memory, so to God he/she is still living to him so not truly separated from God. Those that God judges not worthy of a resurrection for whatever reason that God judges those human beings not worthy of a resurrection, will never exist again as living human beings. So these human beings are not in Gods memory so to God these human beings that God has judged unworthy of a resurrection are truly separated from God for eternity, because the true God isn't the God of the dead, so those that God has judged as unworthy of a resurrection, are not in God's memory and never will be, so those human beings will never exist again as living human beings so these are the ones who are truly separated from God completely.

 

[for_his_glory]

Notice that those in John 3:18-19 who do not come to the light [Christ] are condemned ALREADY.
This speaks to their election to eternal punishment (in the lake of fire.)
God is Immutable. He doesn't change. He's not going to say 'you' are condemned and then tomorrow or next week change His mind and save 'you.'
Everything is locked into place. God is not waiting around to see who will 'accept His Son,' that's not biblical. He's actively calling out a people to Himself. Election. Predestination.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
Jn. 17:6.

If God has already planned who would be His own then what was the whole purpose of Christ's life, death and resurrection.

Even though God created man, yet Jesus being before the foundation of the world had His purpose in the world as God had all things planned out before hand. Do you think God would have known man would sin against Him? I would think so because of the fall of Satan before man was ever created. Like Judas, Jesus told him to go do what he needed to do as Jesus already knew Judas would sell Him out. God already knew ahead of time as Jesus is the arm of God even before the foundation of the world, Isaiah 53:1. This is why Mary, even though not born yet, was already predestined before the foundation of the world for God's purpose here on earth, Jeremiah 1:5.

God does not select before the womb those who will spend eternity with Him or those who will be cast into the lake of fire. God is a sovereign God that in his love and patience for us would not want anyone to perish and only God knows the intents of the heart as he judges us, 2 Peter 3:9. God wants all of us to come to repentance, but not everyone will for the way they are raised from birth. Many babies are born into families that have rejected God and will be raised to also come against Him as their hearts become hardened unto Him. Although, a hardened heart can be changed if given proper nourishment.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. A baby can not be covered by the blood of Jesus until they come into the knowledge of good and evil and accept Him as Lord and Savior. Many use Ephesians 1:4, 5 to support this, but that is not what these verses are saying. These two verses are very similar to that of 2 Peter 3:9 that through Gods love he breathed his breath (spirit) into us when we first came from the womb making us a living soul and that he would want us to be holy and without blame. Staying holy without blame is through repentance and acceptance that brings us to that adoption that is in Christ Jesus thus we were made for Gods good pleasure.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

God did not predestine the man, but predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. We were created to be holy and without blame before Him.

Adam was created perfect until he fell to temptation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well we possibly see death and the complete separation from God differently as well. I believe when a human being is dead he/she is no longer a living human being, so he/she is no longer in existence as a living human being. But God who can read minds and hearts of all human beings can judge at death whether that human being deserves a resurrection or not. If God judges a human being deserving of a resurrection then that human being is in God's memory, so to God he/she is still living to him so not truly separated from God. Those that God judges not worthy of a resurrection for whatever reason that God judges those human beings not worthy of a resurrection, will never exist again as living human beings. So these human beings are not in Gods memory so to God these human beings that God has judged unworthy of a resurrection are truly separated from God for eternity, because the true God isn't the God of the dead, so those that God has judged as unworthy of a resurrection, are not in God's memory and never will be, so those human beings will never exist again as living human beings so these are the ones who are truly separated from God completely.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If one is not walking in newness of life then whether physically alive or dead have already condemned themselves and in the day of judgement will be cast into the lake of fire as their names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No one is knitted together in their mothers womb comes out in birth being a sinner. Just like Adam we are all created in the image of God and the image of God is not sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'll agree with that.

But one thing...repentance is a gift of God. No one can repent of their sin unless God grants it. And if God grants it then that is evidence that person is being and has been drawn by the Father.

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life Acts. 11:18.

God will always forgive a humbled heart that comes before Him confessing they are a sinner in need of God's grace. Jesus is our mediator before the Father.

1Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Tim 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti m2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due tim

 

[GodsGrace]

We just see it differently. We know that the wages of sin is death and complete separation from God. Unless one repents and turns back to God they have damned themselves.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Man is not created sinful as what God created, including man and woman, he saw that it was good and pleasing to Him. We are not born with a sin nature as that does not reflect the image of God in which we were created in, but we are born into a world of iniquity and all have that nature to sin since the fall of Adam. This is why Christ was before the foundation of the world as God's plan of salvation to whosoever will believe in Him receiving life eternal with Jesus.

fhg,
just fell on this...

It's not that we are born sinful because God made us that way.
God said everything He made was good, just as you've stated.

But when Adam disobeyed God and sinned, Adam become knowledgeable of evil/sin.
He allowed this evil/sin to enter into everything, himself, other humans and nature.
This evil that entered is called by different names: the sin nature, the flesh, concupiscense, and maybe other names I don't know about. But it all means the same. We are born scarred from the effect of the knowledge of evil/sin which Adam allowed into humanity since he was the federal head of mankind he effected each one of us.

So, because of Adam's sinning, we are born with this sin nature...this tendency toward serving satan instead of God.
This is why we need to repent - change our direction - and go toward God.

This is why John 3:18... states that he who does not believe is already lost....because we are born lost.

 

[for_his_glory]

fhg,
just fell on this...

It's not that we are born sinful because God made us that way.
God said everything He made was good, just as you've stated.

But when Adam disobeyed God and sinned, Adam become knowledgeable of evil/sin.
He allowed this evil/sin to enter into everything, himself, other humans and nature.
This evil that entered is called by different names: the sin nature, the flesh, concupiscense, and maybe other names I don't know about. But it all means the same. We are born scarred from the effect of the knowledge of evil/sin which Adam allowed into humanity since he was the federal head of mankind he effected each one of us.

So, because of Adam's sinning, we are born with this sin nature...this tendency toward serving satan instead of God.
This is why we need to repent - change our direction - and go toward God.

This is why John 3:18... states that he who does not believe is already lost....because we are born lost.

Because of the similar sin of Adam, being disobedient, the sin of disobedience has been brought into the world as man walks in it, Romans 5:12-14. No one here on earth is excluded or without excuse for their own sins, not the sins of their fathers, but of walking in disobedience as Adam did. Deuteronomy 24:16; Exodus 34:7; Psalms 51:5; Ezekiel 18:19-20; John 9:1-3; Romans 3:23; 5:12-21; 6:23; Titus 3:5

 

[GodsGrace]

First, let me commend you for your questions. They are very good questions and they show me you are THINKING and applying the grey matter (your brain) to my posts. Kudos to you.

That's nice to hear of course.
But we have many members with lots of grey matter here.
It's nice that we all can think of different questions.

QUOTE: Please reply to my post regarding death.

QUOTE: Also, why would God make man sinful?
RESPONSE: God created man sin-ful "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" because that's they only way he can be created. When you take what Isaiah said that "there is only one God" and "there is none like Him" and He "[God] gives His glory to no one," then what conclusion can one reach when that is applied to Adam.

You bring up a lot of points.
Missing the mark: What is the mark? Is it God's glory? Or is it obedience to God....we miss obeying God, what God wants from us....faithfulness, obedience. WHEN we obey God we also glorify Him.

1 Corinthians 13:10
So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

John 15:8
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

​

I know the church today teach Adam was created holy, or righteous, or sinless, or innocent (whatever that means), but that is not what my studies have revealed and I believe I have rightly divided the word of truth. Having said that, God controls how much 'light' a person and a generation receives and if in the past the teaching that Adam was holy was developed based on the luminosity of the light given to that generation then I believe God is giving more light to this generation of believers to come to the knowledge of the truth. I am not the only one who sees this about Adam. At other forums I have interacted with many who hold to what I post about man (Adam.)

Adam was created with preternatural gifts.
I don't believe we could say he was holy.
I think we can say he was sinless and innocent.
How else would you explain that they became shameful of their nakedness after they sinned when God came "looking" for Adam?
Surely it's because they were innocent before, and now became aware of their nakedness, their loss of the simple innocence they had before.
Their eyes were opened...they saw into their soul. It had become stained and they "felt" the evil/sin that had now come to inhabit their body and soul.

I agree about the light given to different generations BTW.
This is why God revealed Himself at different times in different ways...
The early Hebrews had only little knowledge of God, what they needed.
And so forth...

But, even today, the story of Adam does not change.
At least, not in any of the 3 denominations where I've learned and the
small amount of reading I've done.

Another thing. Only the Holy Son can stand before a Holy God (the Father). So, if Adam was holy, then he would have to possess ALL the Deific attributes of God (eternal, all-wise, all-knowing, omnipotent, etc., or else he would still fall short of the glory of God. He would be "missing the mark" and the Greek word is still "harmatia" which is translated "sin."

I agree.
I just don't know of any church that claims Adam was holy.

QUOTE: Did God predestinate Adam's sin?
RESPONSE: He had to. God knows He cannot nor will not reduplicate or copy or transfer His glory to dirt and He didn't. The way you are today in your being is the way Adam was in his. There was no glow around him, there was no halo. All that are figments of supernaturalism that cannot apply to a sin-ful man. I agree that in the 70s or was it the 80s that scientists found a microscopic glow around both leaves of plants and humans, but that life-giving force of the creative acts of God are not like what they depict in renaissance paintings and such of the past. You know those artworks that show a glow around the head of the apostles or even of Jesus (but no one knows what Jesus looks like), and the shroud of Turin is a fake. Adam was just like you and me. Flesh.

I agree. Let's not get silly!
No halos.
But I think they shroud just might be real...
Different topic.

The way I am today is how Adam was AFTER eating the forbidden fruit.

And I don't agree that God predestinated Adam to eat of the fruit.
Why would he have had to eat the fruit if God had already made Adam sinful?
It doesn't make logical sense.

QUOTE: If so, why did God abolish Adam from the Garden for doing what God planned for Adam to do?
RESPONSE: I believe it was and is the plan of God to call out a people from the mass of humanity to Himself (John 17). It's called salvation history, or redemptive history. It was the Father's plan, the Son implemented that plan, and the Holy Spirit in the world today is applying that plan to God's Elect. We are living in the Times of the Gentiles but soon God will turn His attention to Israel because He still has some Promises to fulfill He gave to Abraham, David, and His Son, the King of Israel.

I agree with the second half of the above paragraph.
Underlined by me.

I won't get into the first part right now.
It has to do with salvation economy, as you stated and it would change the topic very much.
God did want to call out a people to Himself....but how? No reply required.

And you didn't really answer my question as to why God would create Adam sinful,
and then abolish him from the Garden for doing what God wanted...

It is all about God's Son. He is the central point in all history. All we are, all the Church is, is a gift to His Son. And Christ died for His Church (Eph. 5).
Now, what do you say, wondering?

I think I said it.
And I agree with your last paragraph.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe God created Adam and Eve trichotomy, that is, body, soul, and spirit.
God told Adam that in the day he eats of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die. Well, he ate of the tree and in accordance to the promise of God Adam died in that day.
But being trichotomy what part of him died? It wasn't his soul because the soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, and will. His body didn't die because he lived to be 930 years old. It must've been his human spirit (not the Holy Spirit, but a human spirit that allowed God and he to communicate. After he sinned the communication changed. By the way, the human spirit allows spiritual communication with God and allows us to process spiritual phenomenon. When we are born again God creates a new human spirit in the believer so we may communicate with God - who is Spirit - and process spiritual phenomenon like the Gifts of the Spirit.)

Agreed on all.
I also am a Trichotomist ! (a new word!)

And death in this instance means separation from God.
Our spirit is separated from God - it dies.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because of the similar sin of Adam, being disobedient, the sin of disobedience has been brought into the world as man walks in it, Romans 5:12-14. No one here on earth is excluded or without excuse for their own sins, not the sins of their fathers, but of walking in disobedience as Adam did. Deuteronomy 24:16; Exodus 34:7; Psalms 51:5; Ezekiel 18:19-20; John 9:1-3; Romans 3:23; 5:12-21; 6:23; Titus 3:5

Agreed 100%!

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Law of God makes sinners of us when we contravene it. The mere existence of God's Law doesn't make all people who are under it automatically guilty. Nowhere in Scripture does God indicate that a man who has only stolen from his neighbor ought to be punished for murder, and adultery, and rape, too. That would be unjust. God condemns a person for that of which they are actually guilty, not for simply existing under His Law. So, too, Adam and Eve in Eden. Only when they had eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and thus had actually disobeyed Him does God punish them for defying His command. The mere issuance of the divine command not to eat the Forbidden Fruit did not make Adam and Eve guilty - that is to say, sinful - which is why, having issued His command about the Forbidden Fruit, God continued to commune with Adam and Eve in Eden, content for them to dwell in the Garden and walk with Him in the cool of the day.



Did Paul identify himself as one who was guilty of breaking all of God's commands? No. He never claimed that the mere existence of God's Law, and his knowledge of it, made him immediately guilty of all sin. Paul's point was that lust and concupiscence are sinful because God has said that they are. This is basic Divine Command Theory. If God does not prohibit knitting sweaters, or picking daisies, doing so isn't sinful. If God says, "Don't covet your neighbor's wife," or "You shall not murder," we know that doing so is morally wrong. This is all that Paul is saying, essentially. He does indicate, however, that, because of our natural inclination toward sinful selfishness inherited from Adam, we are inflamed to sin by God's commands. At our core, we don't like being told what to do; we naturally resist authority and control; we tend toward pathological selfishness which God's commands sharply constrain. And so, His Law provokes us to rebelliousness and sin rather than moving us to moral conduct, as it would have done had Adam not sinned and cursed us with a natural, inherited proclivity toward unrestrained selfishness (and into the sin it always produces).

It's...strange to me to see how tangled you've become in your thinking on these matters. But pride leads to being unteachable, which always leads to confusion about matters that are actually relatively simple to understand. Anyway, as a general rule, the more complicated you are in your explanation of an idea, and the more lines of explanation you employ to support that idea, the less likely it is to be true. See the principle of Occham's Razor. Multiplying explanations unnecessarily is a sign you've quite possibly got the wrong end of the stick about your idea. And so, when I consider your thinking and recognize that no one reading Scripture in a straightforward, natural way would ever arrive at the convolutions of your thinking, I am alerted to the high likelihood of the falsity of what you're proposing. This isn't the only basis for looking askance at your view about sin, of course. See above.

Paul identifies his ONE sin of lust as breaking ONE of the Laws.

Paul was guilty of lust and would have suffered the prescription for that sin under the Law of Moses. But before God he was no longer under condemnation for the sin of lust.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1.

QUOTE: That would be unjust. God condemns a person for that of which they are actually guilty, not for simply existing under His Law.
RESPONSE: Paul teaches that the existence of the Law (or Command) calls him a sinner. He doesn't name a sin for which he is guilty until his example in the next sentence:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: Rom. 7:7.

Let me ask you:

Does sin come from sinner?

Or

Does sin come from holy?

 

[GodsGrace]

Honestly, there is no mention of 'sinning' or 'disobedience' in the passage we are addressing:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression
Rom. 5:12–14.

If there was no "Thou Shalt Not" in the garden and Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil there would be no sin. Right?
But since there was a law, and the law shows us we are sinners, this, along with other facts show that Adam was (created) a sinner or sin-ful BEFORE he ate from the tree.

Your ideas are very interesting, but I fear I'll have to leave after this...

Romans 5:12-14
In my own words:
Adam caused sin to enter into the world - man and nature.
His sin brought death, both physical and spiritual.
Everyone after Adam sinned, so everyone is experiencing physical death.
Breaking the law is sin. Everyone broke the law/breaks the law.
From the time of Adam to Moses everyone died, even those that did not break a commandment as Adam did.

Adam broke a commandment because God told him THOU SHALT NOT....
Anything God commands is a commandment - whether or not there is a law.

Here's the interesting question you bring up - one that cannot be answered and even in how you're trying to answer it many problems arise:
You say:
But since there was a law, and the law shows us we are sinners, this, along with other facts show that Adam was (created) a sinner or sin-ful BEFORE he ate from the tree.

And here we must face the problem of theodicy.
How did evil get into the world? Why is evil in the world?
No one knows.

What you ask is spot on.
If Adam was created without sin...
WHAT made him disobey God?

Great question.
If you find the answer....
let me know.


(the answer cannot be that God created him sinful).

 

[GodsGrace]

Creation as a whole suffers from what is called "the law of entropy.'

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom. 8:22.

Scientists within the last 100 years or so have only understood when looking at the beginning of the universe discovered that everything is degenerating into chaos. Everything dies. The earth is dying and degenerating into chaos. Earthquakes, volcanoes are all evidence of this fact. Even stars that go supernova are evidence of this chaos. But it takes time. Man, too, was created to die. And since Adam and Eve all children born into the world in time die. Adam was not created eternal. Even if he didn't eat from the tree he would have in time die. He wasn't eternal. Eternal-ness is an attribute of God. God is eternal. Not His creation.
Adam was a sinner (created sin-ful) before the actual disobedience he committed. Sin comes from sinner.

Yes, I know the church today and in the past teach Adam was immortal, but he was not. Preventing Adam from the tree of life which would allow them to live forever is evidence of his lack.

Creation groaneth because it was affected by the same sin nature that we're affected with.

There's a difference between being ETERNAL
and being IMMORTAL.

must go.