Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR In Isaiah

[Randy]

False reading!

how do you read this?
Isaiah 42:1
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
And this?
Isaian 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,

 

[Randy]

Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR In Isaiah

“And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit” (The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, A New Translation. The Jewish Publication Society of America. 5677-1917)

These words are from Isaiah chapter 48, verse 16, where the Speaker is not God the Father. In the Hebrew text, it does not read, “Lord God”, but, “Adonai YHWH”, Literally, “The Lord Yahweh”. Neither is the Speaker the Holy Spirit, as He is here the Second “object” in the Hebrew, Who is “Sent”, by “Adonai YHWH”.

Obviously the early Jews did not like this passage, as it clearly shows that there is more than One Person Who is YHWH. This Can be seen in The Targum of Jonathan Ben Uzie, which dates from around the 1st century AD:

“The prophet saith: And now the Lord God and His Word, hath sent me” (C W H Pauli; The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah, pp.166-167)

These Targums are paraphrases, where some of the content is not what the Hebrew actually says. There is no Hebrew manuscripts that have “The prophet saith”, which has been added to try to remove any reference to another Person Who is YHWH. Though they have rightly said that “ME” refers to “His Word”, Who is the Lord Jesus Christ, as is clear from John 1:1, etc.

The reading of the ending of this verse, in Bible Versions like the King James, is wrong;

“and now the Lord God and his Spirit hath sent me” (1611)

This makes two subjects, “the Lord God”, and “his Spirit”, and one object, “me”, the Speaker. In the Hebrew the word order is, “wə‘atâ ’ăḏōnāy yəhweh šəlāḥanî wərûḥwō” (And now the Adonay YHWH has sent Me and His Spirit), which is, one subject “the Lord God”, and two objects, “His Spirit” and the Speaker. This is same word order in the Greek Old Testament (LXX), and the Latin Vulgate. The same is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from the 1st century BC

“And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit” (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich)

Further, we have the Hebrew verb here, “šə·lā·ḥa·nî”, which is masculine singular, “has sent”, which cannot mean two subjects.

It is very clear from the context verse 16 is, that the Speaker has to be YHWH, and no one who is a lesser person.

The words in this verse are like those found in verse 3, “I have declared the former things from the beginning”, and verse 5, “I have even from the beginning declared it to you”. In verse 12 and 13 the Speaker says, “Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He, I am the First, I also am the Last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth”. Language that can hardly be use by Isaiah, or any other human being! Then, in verse 15 we read, “I, even I have spoken, yes, and I have called him”. In the very next verse, we read, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go”. As the Speaker of verse 16 here continues, it is clear that He is Yahweh, Who is Speaking, and not the Prophet Isaiah. This same Speaker also says, “Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The Lord has called Me from the womb” (49:1). In verse 5 He is called “His Servant”, which clearly can only refer to Jesus Christ. None of these things could have been said by the Prophet Isaiah.

It is clear that the Speaker is Jesus Christ, The One Who was SENT by God the Father, and Who from all eternity, is YHWH, and EQUAL with the Father.

In Isaiah 44:6, we read of the Father: “This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God”. Jesus says the same of Himself in 48:12. This means that Jesus Christ is ETERNAL, exactly as the Father is! The Father could never have Created Jesus Christ.

In Isaiah 40:22, we read of the Father, “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in”. In 48:13, Jesus says that He Created the entire Universe.

In this chapter in the Prophet Isaiah, we have Three distinct Persons, One Whom is the SENDER, and the Two Who are SENT by Him.

In the Book of the Prophet Zechariah, we read in Chapter 2, verses 6-12, where the Speaker is also Yahweh, and says that Another Person, “Yahweh of the Armies”, is Sending Him.

Verses 11 and 12, “for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh...and you will know that Yahweh of armies has sent Me to you”

Here we have in the Jewish Old Testament, clear teaching that the God of the Holy Bible is not One Person. There are Two in these passages Who are YHWH, the Father and Jesus Christ.

We also have in the Book of Isaiah, Jesus Christ is called, “’êl Gibbôr”, in 9:6; and the Father is also called “’êl Gibbôr”, in 10:21, in both places the meaning is exactly the same, MIGHTY GOD (also in Jeremiah 32:18). This reading is also in the New World Translation, as published by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do admit that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, as the Father is!

The Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead and Three distinct equal Persons, is very clear in the Old Testament, and has nothing to do with the Christian Church of “inventing” this Doctrine!

You reject True God from True God and eternally begotten of the Father. The churches reasoning was to show one God rather than a begotten God. The Father is not the Logos and the Logos is not the Father. How then do you believe they are one God? You state so but don't state how they are one. What makes them one if the Logos does not have the Fathers essence?

Why would Jesus need to receive His own Spirit from the Father to send? Christ in us.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Fathers promise:In theses last days I will pour out My spirit.....

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

 

[SolaScriptura]

You reject True God from True God and eternally begotten of the Father.

I REJECT what is NOT taught in the Holy Bible!

I am NOT interested in "creeds" that have HERESY in them!

The Bible clear teaches for those who are really interested in what the Bible says, that the Father is YHWH, Jesus Christ is YHWH, The Holy Spirit is YHWH. This means that the Three Distinct Persons are 100% COEQUAL!

 

[SolaScriptura]

You reject True God from True God and eternally begotten of the Father. The churches reasoning was to show one God rather than a begotten God. The Father is not the Logos and the Logos is not the Father. How then do you believe they are one God? You state so but don't state how they are one. What makes them one if the Logos does not have the Fathers essence?

Why would Jesus need to receive His own Spirit from the Father to send? Christ in us.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Fathers promise:In theses last days I will pour out My spirit.....

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

Psalm 110:1 - Yahweh said to Yahweh

Psalm 110:1 – “nü´ùm Yehôvâh lA´dönî” A very important verse, and Psalm. In the greater majority of English Versions, we have as in the King James Bible, “The LORD said unto my Lord”. In some Versions, like the 2011 New International, Good News, English Standard Version, New American Bible...

christianforums.net

 

[Randy]

Psalm 110:1 - Yahweh said to Yahweh

Psalm 110:1 – “nü´ùm Yehôvâh lA´dönî” A very important verse, and Psalm. In the greater majority of English Versions, we have as in the King James Bible, “The LORD said unto my Lord”. In some Versions, like the 2011 New International, Good News, English Standard Version, New American Bible...

christianforums.net

I not going to argue with your claim Jesus is Yahweh. You have created your own creed. How is God and the Logos one God in your creed since you reject true God from true God? I would think you would believe Yahweh has no end and does NOT change but Jesus is a Son and has a God.

Is it the Lord said to the Lord, or the Lord said to my Lord?

Your free to believe Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[Randy]

I REJECT what is NOT taught in the Holy Bible!

I am NOT interested in "creeds" that have HERESY in them!

The Bible clear teaches for those who are really interested in what the Bible says, that the Father is YHWH, Jesus Christ is YHWH, The Holy Spirit is YHWH. This means that the Three Distinct Persons are 100% COEQUAL!

You have created your own creed and elevated it above all.
How are they One God in your creed?

 

[Randy]

Is this not biblical?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

If you are going to argue the nature of the Son is God, no need, as I agree. But it's His Fathers nature not His own. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are indeed one.
Col 1:19 -A creation of the Father alone

 

[SolaScriptura]

Is this not biblical?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

If you are going to argue the nature of the Son is God, no need, as I agree. But it's His Fathers nature not His own. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are indeed one.
Col 1:19 -A creation of the Father alone

Colossians 1:19

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

"For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

No "Father" in the Greek!

2:9 explains this

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς"

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"

"πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος", is "the totality of the Divine Nature"

The Unitarian Greek scholar, J H Thayer says

"deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Col. 2:9"

Nothing can be stronger that Jesus Christ is GOD!

 

[GodsGrace]

Is this not biblical?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

If you are going to argue the nature of the Son is God, no need, as I agree. But it's His Fathers nature not His own. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. They are indeed one.
Col 1:19 -A creation of the Father alone

Correct
They are One in nature.
One God
One nature.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You reject True God from True God and eternally begotten of the Father. The churches reasoning was to show one God rather than a begotten God. The Father is not the Logos and the Logos is not the Father. How then do you believe they are one God? You state so but don't state how they are one. What makes them one if the Logos does not have the Fathers essence?

Why would Jesus need to receive His own Spirit from the Father to send? Christ in us.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Fathers promise:In theses last days I will pour out My spirit.....

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I

The Father is Greater than I

The Father is Greater than I “You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) This is probably the most used verse in the Bible, by those who argue...

christianforums.net

 

[Randy]

Colossians 1:19

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

"For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

No "Father" in the Greek!

2:9 explains this

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς"

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"

"πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος", is "the totality of the Divine Nature"

The Unitarian Greek scholar, J H Thayer says

"deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Col. 2:9"

Nothing can be stronger that Jesus Christ is GOD!

(was pleased)- from the will of another
In Him not Him
Before all things
He Lives by that Deity forever-the Father, The Father is greater than Him, The Father is the only true God, The Father is greater, The Father is His God and our God
All truths stated by Jesus

God does not change ever.

 

[Randy]

The Father is Greater than I

The Father is Greater than I “You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) This is probably the most used verse in the Bible, by those who argue...

christianforums.net

You clearly teach what the Son states is not always truth.
God never changes. And I still don't know since you reject true God from true God how you state the Logos who was with God and is stated God are the one and the same God.

 

[Randy]

Correct
They are One in nature.
One God
One nature.

Because its the Father's Deity in Him not His own.

As in God from true God not true God from true God.

He has always been the Son. About that "Son" Hebrews 1; God brought all things into existence by Him. As the Deity in the Son that created is the Father. God spoke to us in these last days by His Son. As the Deity living in Jesus spoke to us. God appointed Him heir of all things. As Jesus is a Son. Jesus is all that the Father is. The very imprint of the "Fathers being" and the radiance of "The Father's" glory for all that the Father is was pleased to dwell "in Him". The Him is the Firstborn of all creation; the beginning of the creation of God. A born Son of the Father before all things. That is why Jesus received authority and has a God and Father. The eternal life found in Him is the Father. For just as He lives and never dies by the Deity in Him so the one who feeds off of Him will live and never die. As the Father has life in Himself and gives life so the Son was granted by God to have life in Himself and give life. And giving life is a judgment made. Jesus has been appointed by God as that one who judges and placed all things in His hands.

 

[Randy]

Colossians 1:19

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

"For all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

No "Father" in the Greek!

2:9 explains this

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς"

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"

"πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος", is "the totality of the Divine Nature"

The Unitarian Greek scholar, J H Thayer says

"deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Col. 2:9"

Nothing can be stronger that Jesus Christ is GOD!

Clearly from the will of another. (was pleased) If not the Father who is that other that defined the Son's being?
perhaps Col 1:20 will clue you in as its so greatly implied many translators state Him.

Col 1:19-20 -The meaning given is true.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR In Isaiah​

Not according to scripture. According to Isaiah Yahweh created the heavens and the earth. Yahweh is the Father.

Isaiah 44​

24Thus says Yahweh,​

your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:​

“I am Yahweh,​

who has made all things,​

who alone stretched out the heavens,​

who by Myself spread out the earth,​

​

Isaiah 64​

8But now, O Yahweh, You are our Father;​

we are the clay, and You are the potter;​

we are all the work of Your hand.​

Jesus is the Son of Yahweh.

Psalm 2​

7I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by Yahweh: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.​

 

[Whatever]

There is one verse in Isaiah cross referenced with Paul that shows that the Yahweh that Isaiah saw was Jesus or the Word or Logos and not the Father. I don't know anything about interpretations, so I will have to quote somebody else.

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

Strong's has it as the Hebrew Adonai.

This comes from The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury
the Lord. In the primitive Hebrew text, Jehovah, changed by the Sopherim to "Adonai" out of extreme (but mistaken) reverence for the Ineffable Name "Jehovah" (See The Companion Bible, Appendix 32 for the list of 134 places this was done). This fact taken in connection with Joh_12:37-41 clearly establishes that Isaiah saw Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form, establishing beyond any possible question that Jesus is properly identified as Jehovah, the Second Person of the Trinity

I have used Isaiah 6:1 cross referenced with Joh 12:41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. To show to Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

There is one verse in Isaiah cross referenced with Paul that shows that the Yahweh that Isaiah saw was Jesus or the Word or Logos and not the Father. I don't know anything about interpretations, so I will have to quote somebody else.

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

Strong's has it as the Hebrew Adonai.

This comes from The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury
the Lord. In the primitive Hebrew text, Jehovah, changed by the Sopherim to "Adonai" out of extreme (but mistaken) reverence for the Ineffable Name "Jehovah" (See The Companion Bible, Appendix 32 for the list of 134 places this was done). This fact taken in connection with Joh_12:37-41 clearly establishes that Isaiah saw Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form,

I believe Isaiah saw Jesus ascended to Heaven with the physical wounds He lreceived after being tortured.

establishing beyond any possible question that Jesus is properly identified as Jehovah, the Second Person of the Trinity

Amen! He certainly if God.

I have used Isaiah 6:1 cross referenced with Joh 12:41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. To show to Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

John also cited Isa.53.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Not according to scripture. According to Isaiah Yahweh created the heavens and the earth. Yahweh is the Father.

Isaiah 44​

24Thus says Yahweh,​

your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:​

“I am Yahweh,​

who has made all things,​

who alone stretched out the heavens,​

who by Myself spread out the earth,​

​

Isaiah 64​

8But now, O Yahweh, You are our Father;​

we are the clay, and You are the potter;​

we are all the work of Your hand.​

Jesus is the Son of Yahweh.

Psalm 2​

7I will proclaim the decree spoken to Me by Yahweh: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.​

In Psalm 102:24-27 we read:

"I said, "O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end"

In Hebrews 1:10-12, God the Father Addresses Jesus Christ:

"And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

Clearly, the Father Himself says that Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR, and directly applies the words of the Psalm to Jesus!

"Lord (Κύριε)" here is the equivalent of "YHWH".

 

[Runningman]

In Psalm 102:24-27 we read:

"I said, "O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end"

In Hebrews 1:10-12, God the Father Addresses Jesus Christ:

"And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

Clearly, the Father Himself says that Jesus Christ is THE CREATOR, and directly applies the words of the Psalm to Jesus!

"Lord (Κύριε)" here is the equivalent of "YHWH".

If you will look at Hebrews 1:9 you will see that the one it is talking about is the God who anointed the Son. Verse 10 begins with "And" because it's conjoined with verse 9 and is a continuation of the narrative regarding the previously mentioned God; the previously mentioned God of verse 9 is the Father doing the anointing.

Therefore, since verses 10-12 refer to the Creator doing the creating it isn't about the Son being the creator. With frequency all over the Bible, the only who is the Creator is Yahweh, the Sovereign Lord and Creator, Lord of heaven and earth, the Father.

Isaiah 44​

24Thus says the LORD,(YHWH)​

your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:​

“I am the LORD,(YHWH)​

who has made all things,​

who alone stretched out the heavens,​

who by Myself spread out the earth,​

​

Matt 11​

25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

​

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.​

 

[Whatever]

I believe Isaiah saw Jesus ascended to Heaven with the physical wounds He lreceived after being tortured.

Isaiah wasn't there when Jesus ascended. Daniel did kind of see this.
Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

In Daniel's vision, he was in Heaven and saw Jesus coming up (ascending) with clouds. The disciples standing on the ground saw Jesus ascend and a cloud blocked their vision. Along with verse 14 above, at the end of Matthew the disciples see Jesus later and He says:
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.