A man becomes a new creation in Christ because the old creation passes away. If not for God , Christ does not exist. If not for Christ, eternal life does not exist, nor does a new creation.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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God No One Has Seen At Any Time
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
- Start date
It's not about them worshipping the Lamb as I tried to tell you. Let's look at it. The elders are encircling the throne. He who sits on the throne isn't the Lamb. The elders fell and worshipped at the throne they are encircling. Therefore they aren't worshipping the Lamb, they are worshipping God.
Revelation 5
11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne,
13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To Him who sits on the throne
and to the Lamb
14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped
For that to be true, the Bible would first need to say so. It never demonstrably says any such thing. Actually, Jesus and YHWH and distinctly not the same person. The Father is not the Son in Trinitarian philosophy. The Father is YHWH, therefore the Son isn't YHWH. YHWH is God's personal name and many people in the Bible have a name that is named after Him.
Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”
Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:[YHWH]
“You are My Son;[Jesus]
today I have become Your Father.[YHWH]
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
The Father is Almighty God. Jesus Christ is Almighty God. The Holy Spirit is Almighty God.
Three distinct equal Persons Who are Almighty God, in the One Eternal Divine Nature or Godhead
During the time of His Incarnation, while on earth, Jesus Christ made Himself "subject" to the Father. This is clear from passages like John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2:7-9, etc
In Hebrews 1:8-9, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ as God. In verses 10-12, the Father addresses Jesus Christ as the Actual Creator of the Universe. In verse 6 the Father Commands the Worship of Jesus Christ.
In John 5:23, Jesus says that He is to be Honored/Glory in exactly the same way that the Father is.
In Revelation 5:13-14, ALL The Praise, The Honour, The Glory, The Might, are EQUALLY to the Father and Jesus Christ, and They are EQUALLY WORSHIPED.
In Revelation 1:17-18; 2:8; 22:13, Jesus says that He is The Eternal God, "The First and The Last", "without Beginning and End"; which YHWH says of Himself in Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 40:3 Prophecies of the Coming of YHWH. John the Baptist tells us that this was Fulfilled in the Coming of Jesus Christ, in Matthew 3:3, etc
In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus Christ is Called , "El Gibbor", which is "Mighty God". In 10:21, the Father is also Called "El Gibbor".
If, by your question you are trying to make Jesus Christ "less" than God the Father, then these passages and many others, 100% show that you are completely WRONG!
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
In the very passage you quote, it is very clear, that whatever "Praise, Honour, Glory, Might", is true of the Father, is EQUALLY true of Jesus Christ. In verse 14 it does not say that only the Father is Worshiped, as BOTH the Father and Jesus Christ are TOGETHER!
As I have said, the Father Commands that Jesus Christ is WORSHIPED in Hebrews 1:6
"and to the Lamb" which you apparently ignore.
God, "Our Father"
“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Jesus "our Lord"
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
Clearly at God's expressed Will and command Jesus has been found worthy of honor, power and glory with the Father.
I have loved and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes just as I do to the Father. Jesus answers. I have heard from Him. I know Him. He knows me. I belong to Him and live through Him. As He stated to the Father, "they were yours you gave them to me".
It is lawful to worship the Son. Those who love the Son are loved by the Father.
He and the Father are one.
Praise, honor, and glory don't mean worship. Jesus is never worshipped the same way he said God is worshipped in the Bible. That means Jesus isn't God.
As I just said to someone else, praise, hour, and glory don't mean worship. Others in the Bible receive the same things, but aren't worshipped.
Yet the context of Revelation 5 is clear that where the elders worshipped is before the throne where God is. That means the Lamb isn't worshipped and that the Lamb isn't God.
Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
Define WORSHIP
As I stated it was the very same words in regard to the Father. Honor, power and glory.
Jesus has sovereign power. He is worshipped. Have you ever prayed to Him?
I am suggesting that every son is to be subject to his father.
Jesus the Son does indeed honor His Father, and is subject to Him.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:5-10
But to the Son He says:
“You, LORD, (YHWH) in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
The Son created the heavens and the earth. The Son has the same name as the Father.
Hebrews 1:10 refers back to the God who anointed His Son in Hebrews 1:9. Notice how verse 10 begins with "and" as that is key.
This is apparent in the context since in Hebrews 1:5 there is a day in which YHWH became the Sons Father. That means Jesus isn't YHWH and isn't the Creator. Many examples of this. Acts 4:24-27 Jesus isn't the Creator, but is referred to as the Creator's servant. Matthew 11:25 and Acts 17:24, the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth and creator.
But of Jesus the Father YHWH says.
Isaiah 42
1“Here is My Servant, whom I uphold,
My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will bring justice to the nations.
Matthew 12
18“Here is My Servant,
whom I have chosen,
My beloved,
in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will proclaim justice to the nations.
Honor, power, and glory don't mean worship though. Seems pretty clear that the elders encircling the throne are worshipping He Who sits on the throne.
It's problematic to say that Jesus shares the throne of God because those who overcome will share the throne with Jesus according to Revelation 3:21. Do you say that Christians are worshipped as God?
Jesus the Son created all things in heaven and earth.
Your denial of scripture is blatant.
Jesus Christ is the Lord: YHWH the LORD God.
He is coming soon, with His saints from Heaven on the Day of The LORD.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5
- Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Jesus will return soon on the Day of the LORD, which is the Day of Christ.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD (YHWH)
Shall be saved. Joel 2:32
What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) we call on to be saved?
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” Romans 10:9-13
Jesus is the name of YHWH: the LORD God of the Old Testament.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Jesus as God, was manifested in the flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
This is what the Father Commands
"But when He again brings The Firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him" - Hebrews 1:6
In both places, John 4 and Hebrews 1, the same Greek word is used, "προσκυνέω".
There is no reason why the meaning should be different in either place
Even the Interlinear Greek New Testament published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Emphatic Diaglott, reads;
"when but again he may lead in the first born into the habitable, he says: And let worship him all messengers of God" (1942 edition)
How can the Father Command that Jesus Christ is Worshiped, if He is not Almighty God?
He sat down with His Father on His Fathers throne just as He stated.
Have you ever prayed to Him?
It's because there are multiple "thrones" in heaven. We aren't God, right?
Yes I pray to God regularly and I also talk to Jesus.