GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[Grailhunter]

They do, you just don’t know it. In the Greek Septuigent, sons of God are most definitely interpreted as angels of God, and all quotations is OT came from the Septuigent.

How many errors in the Septuagint? But either way show me. Again this is an old debate.

 

[eddif]

GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?​

Covenant theology
Old Testament older covenant/covenants.
New Testament new and better covenant, and explanations began to explain what some portions of the old covenant.

Same God working in at least two major covenants.

I guess Adam and Eve broke their covenant/agreement. I just know the term and not know all the covenants.

The two women were two covenants (use search engine). Or. I will if that does not
ring a bell.

The old covenants were outward and ceremonial. The new convent were more spiritual. First
the physical then the spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15 46 ljv
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Did I say anything?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How many errors in the Septuagint? But either way show me. Again this is an old debate.

Keep in mind that discrediting the Septuagint is discrediting the entire NT, because Septuagint was the source material of the NT, which was written in Greek. Greek was the common language in most of the places during Pauls missionary journeys, OT quote in the NT directly came from the Septuagint.

As for the sons of God, if you don't believe they are angels, fine, forget about it, but the giants were the same. The OP asked about God's order for a "holocaust" of the Canaanites, I gave a reasonable answer - God were targeting the giants, which were demonic creatures. In one way or another they resurfaced after the Flood, which was prophesied in Gen. 6:4 and confirmed in Num. 13:33, most prominent one among them was Goliath, an embodiment of the Antichrist spirit who openly mocked God. That is no speculation, that is a fact from biblical texts. "Old" and "renown" are a jab at pagan ancestor worship, a very common form of idolatry across the globe, especially in east Asia till this day, they worship their "old" and "renown" ancestors, I've been there and seen it with my own eyes.

There were giants (Nephilim) on the earth in those days, and also AFTERWARD ... those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (Gen. 6:4)

There we saw the giants (Nephilim) ... and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight. (Num. 13:33)

 

[Grailhunter]

Keep in mind that discrediting the Septuagint is discrediting the entire NT, because Septuagint was the source material of the NT, which was written in Greek. Greek was the common language in most of the places during Pauls missionary journeys, OT quote in the NT directly came from the Septuagint.

Do another study of the Septuagint and come back and talk to me.

As for the sons of God, if you don't believe they are angels, fine, forget about it, but the giants were the same. The OP asked about God's order for a "holocaust" of the Canaanites, I gave a reasonable answer - God were targeting the giants, which were demonic creatures. In one way or another they resurfaced after the Flood, which was prophesied in Gen. 6:4 and confirmed in Num. 13:33, most prominent one among them was Goliath, an embodiment of the Antichrist spirit who openly mocked God. "Old" and "renown" are a jab at pagan ancestor worship, a very common form of idolatry across the globe, especially in east Asia till this day, they worship their "old" and "renown" ancestors, I've been there and seen it with my own eyes.

This is correct. The giants along with the other Pagans were the enemies of God and the Israelites. But mighty men of renown are positive statements..... Just like the mighty men of King David. And renown is a positive statement in these scriptures Numbers 1:16 Numbers 16:2, Ezekiel 39:13 Daniel 9:15 Renown means famous in the Old Testament.

Then you have the issue with Angels with genitals….Angels that reproduce with each other or with humans….We do not have examples of Angels reproducing with each other or with humans….And the general belief is that Angels do not reproduce. The sons of God that impregnated women and married them were a different category of divine beings.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Do another study of the Septuagint and come back and talk to me.

I have, I wouldn't have come to tell you these things if I hadn't. Go see for yourself, go check Deut. 32:8, then come back and talk to me.

This is correct. The giants along with the other Pagans were the enemies of God and the Israelites. But mighty men of renown are positive statements..... Just like the mighty men of King David. And renown is a positive statement in these scriptures Numbers 1:16 Numbers 16:2, Ezekiel 39:13 Daniel 9:15 Renown means famous in the Old Testament.

This is ridiculous, mighty men of renown were description of the the giants, what makes you think they're different and positive? Yes it was postive for king David's men, but it was spoken in a sarcastic sense for the giants who were only perceived as renown by the violent and immoral masses who deserved to be exterminated by the Flood.

Then you have the issue with Angels with genitals….Angels that reproduce with each other or with humans….We do not have examples of Angels reproducing with each other or with humans….And the general belief is that Angels do not reproduce. The sons of God that impregnated women and married them were a different category of divine beings.

If you have an issue with translation, then "sons of God" is where you really should point your fingers at. They are most definitely divine beings, who are also evil, as they're with Satan in Job 1:6, and they're being judged by God in Ps. 82:6-7. Mortal men don't get to present themselves before God, and they naturally fall and die, there's no need to declare that they would die LIKE mortal men. Unlike you who make baseless assumptions about "genitals", I let the bible interpret itself, I don't get disturbed and distracted by a dirty mind in the gutter.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (Job 1:6)

"You're gods, all of you are children of the Most High, but you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Ps. 82:6-7)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do another study of the Septuagint and come back and talk to me.

I have, I wouldn't have come to tell you these things if I hadn't. Go see for yourself, go check Deut. 32:8, then come back and talk to me.

Gentlemen, you're obviously already coming back and talking to each other, repeatedly.

Keep it civil please.
Thank you,
Hidden

 

[Riven]

God's perfect knowledge.
Do you know about God's middle knowledge?
Craig talks about it. Weird stuff. We get too caught up in trying to understand GOD.
That's like an ant trying to understand a HUMAN!!

But if the ant were capable of pondering the nature of it's own existence, and by extension, that of it's creator, would we fault it for doing so?

God wanted to create a race of humans.
I'm told it's because He loves us and I tend to agree with this reason since He had no real NEED for us.

Maybe he does need us. We only assume that he doesn't because he's a divine being.

But God is slightly intelligent....isn't He?
Do you suppose He would have been happy with a race of humans that He would have liked to be able to freely love Him back? Maybe He didn't want to program the entire human scene, so He left a lot of decision making to us?

That's just it though, there are no decisions to be made. Our free will is an illusion if God has perfect knowledge of every choice well ever make in this life. If there is no freedom to choice, how is it moral for God to judge us?

Think about the consequences of this. It means that the slaughter of six million Jews at the hands of the Nazis was part of God's unalterable plan. It's a lot like what we read about in the Old Testament.

So, Adam and Eve were free to eat of the tree.
The tree held the knowledge of good and evil.
Did ADAM only want to know good?
Or did he also want to know evil?

I doubt Adam wanted to know anything. He seemed rather content for the most part until Eve showed up. Women have way of... complicating things. :p

God could have not put the tree there,
God could have made Adam choose to NOT eat,
God could have done this any way He wanted,,,
but He chose to let us make the decision as to whether or not we wanted to know evil,
Or only good.
Would man belong to God freely and lovingly
or would man end up a robot that followed God's instructions?

I think God should have laid it all out from the very beginning. Just why did he get so upset at mankind for wanting knowledge? Putting prefect knowledge aside, is it free will if God casts you out of the garden for exercising it? Or... Does he want you to be more like a robot?

And how are we judged for making any choice?
Because God gives to us the free choice to choose between Him and the enemy.
He clearly states that if you choose the enemy He will have nothing further to do with you because you decided to give your love to the enemy.

This is perfect justice.

But what is giving your love to the enemy? What does that entail? Is it asking questions? Is it the pursuit of knowledge? If one isn't convinced that the bible is the word of God, is that choosing the enemy?

Good thinking!

Simple answer:
GOD HAS FREE WILL.

The REAL question is:
Can God negate/oppose His nature?

For instance,
Can God sin?

It kind of reminds me of that question, can God create a rock so heavy that even he can't lift? God's nature, at least in the Old Testament, is very human. He admits to being a jealous God, having fits of rage, and even regret.

If God has these human traits, especially regret, then it stands to reason that in a fit of rage, there's a chance he could go against his own divine nature. But then again, there's no judge above God to punish him for sinning, and the angels must obey, or they will be cast out of heaven.

Not mythology.
How about this:
The Hebrews, and those that came after them, had discovered this new God.
A monotheistic God that had great power.
God commanded many actions/incidents/rules, etc. in the OT.
Could it be that the Hebrews, and those that came after, began to attribute
everything that happened to God?

I think it's likely that Yahweh was the god the Jews needed at the time. A war god that would smite their enemies and deliver them. People don't just discover gods and begin communicating with them. Just as God doesn't talk to human beings today, it is unlikely he talked to ancient man either.

As I said, I think most of it is mythology. We're you around during the time of Hector and Achilles, you would have had complete faith in the Greek gods. They too believed that the gods were to be feared and respected, and they very much believed that the stories of these gods were truly.

In a thousand years, assuming we don't join the 99% of all species that have ever lived on this planet in extinction, it is likely that the Christian God will be thought of in the same way as the Greek gods are today. That doesn't mean the Christian God does not exist, but how else do you expect a people to react to a god that prefers to remain hidden?

We will never fully understand God but can only grasp what has been revealed to us,,,and I'd say the best revelation is Jesus.

You could be right. Jesus certainly made an impact unlike anything we've ever seen in our history. For my own sake, and the sake of my fellow humans, I hope that the Christian God is more divine in nature than he's made out to be in the bible... and less blood thirsty.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have, I wouldn't have come to tell you these things if I hadn't. Go see for yourself, go check Deut. 32:8, then come back and talk to me.

The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament not the New Testament.

This is ridiculous, mighty men of renown were description of the the giants, what makes you think they're different and positive? Yes it was postive for king David's men, but it was spoken in a sarcastic sense for the giants who were only perceived as renown by the violent and immoral masses who deserved to be exterminated by the Flood.

There is no scripture to connect the mighty men of renown to the giants.

I have, I wouldn't have come to tell you these things if I hadn't. Go see for yourself, go check Deut. 32:8, then come back and talk to me.

This is ridiculous, mighty men of renown were description of the the giants, what makes you think they're different and positive? Yes it was postive for king David's men, but it was spoken in a sarcastic sense for the giants who were only perceived as renown by the violent and immoral masses who deserved to be exterminated by the Flood.

If you have an issue with translation, then "sons of God" is where you really should point your fingers at. They are most definitely divine beings, who are also evil, as they're with Satan in Job 1:6, and they're being judged by God in Ps. 82:6-7. Mortal men don't get to present themselves before God, and they naturally fall and die, there's no need to declare that they would die LIKE mortal men. Unlike you who make baseless assumptions about "genitals", I let the bible interpret itself, I don't get disturbed and distracted by a dirty mind in the gutter.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (Job 1:6)

"You're gods, all of you are children of the Most High, but you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Ps. 82:6-7)

The sons of God are some sort of divine being but nothing to say they were bad. Again you are back to finding were Angels reproduce. Find the scripture were Angels reproduce.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will never stop reading books and watching videos.

The Lord put these men in position to teach

If an article can explain better than I can, I will use it.

Hi Elected,
I DO want to explain what I had posted.
I too read books - or at least, I used to and a lot.

I'm not one to degrade teachers since I happen to be one....
teaching our young ones our faith.
A teacher of a low scale I'd say....but I think I know what I'm talking about so just hear me out.

I enjoy listening to men. I even listen to Reformed teachers/pastors....
But I don't let MAN set my beliefs. I let God, our Lord and Scripture set the tone....tell me what I need to know.
Let's say that I like to be like the Bareans in Acts 17.

There are members in some Forums that post a lot of systematic theology when replying.
Systematic theology is a particular persons way of explaining what THEY have gleaned from reading scripture.
Then they pass this on to you----us.

I'll just tell you what I think works best and then I'll leave this discussion....
Read the bible.
Use different versions if not understanding something.
Read different commentaries.....which one fits better with my understanding.
Is my understanding even in the ballpark?
Then, if I'm still not sure and I think it's something important,,,I go straight to the ECFs.

I'd rather pay attention to what Ignatius of Antioch is stating than what some person in the 20/21 st century thinks scripture is saying.

Ignatius knew the Apostles and I trust HIM more.

 

[GodsGrace]

IMHO
God does not break his rules.


The goodness and severity of God bring us to repentance.

His rod and staff comfort us.

God’s ways are not our ways by nature.

We see through a glass darkly till the last trump. At the last trump we are fully changed.

Ezekiel more fully explained who, why they were killed
And
Who why some were saved, and the purpose they had in their protection.

It is a tedious study in the last Prophets. Isaiah has comments that help understanding.

All I can do is very roughly give things that have to be researched.

This thread is about the dual nature of God, and the (without help) nature of man to go the wrong way.

Could be interesting.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

OK Ed.....
I can accept all of the above except this:
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE DUAL NATURE OF GOD.

God has ONE NATURE.
A divine nature.

I don't understand how He could possibly have 2 natures.
If you care to explain, OK.
The reformed speak of God as having 2 different WILLS,,,,
but I don't think I've ever heard that God has 2 NATURES.

 

[GodsGrace]

They do, you just don’t know it. In the Greek Septuigent, sons of God are most definitely interpreted as angels of God, and all quotations is OT came from the Septuigent.

Your statement is true Carry.
But I have to agree with Grailhunter because I don't read in the bible that angels are sexual beings.
Could you list some verses that do?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Your statement is true Carry.
But I have to agree with Grailhunter because I don't read in the bible that angels are sexual beings.
Could you list some verses that do?

But the "sons of God" definitely did mess with mortal women, either sexually or genetically or supernatually, anyhow, like the impregnation of virgin Mary by the Holy spirit. If you don't identify them as angels, fine, but know this, that according to Job 1:6, Ps. 82:6-7 and Deut. 32:8 (dead sea scroll version) they were divine beings, the exact same term was used, this is not speculation. There's a false interpretation which suggests those "sons of God" were saints who "call upon the name of the Lord" based on Gen. 5:26, but if so, why did they become so wicked that God had to wipe them all out with a global Flood? Besides, that was many generations ago before Noah, sainthood is not hereditary. These "sons of God" were also mentioned in 1 Pt. 3:18-20, where Jesus "went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah." That's talking about none other than the evil sons of God, who were the evil spirits in the NT. This is a consistent narrative throughout the whole bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

But the "sons of God" definitely did mess with mortal women, either sexually or genetically or supernatually, anyhow, like the impregnation of virgin Mary by the Holy spirit. If you don't identify them as angels, fine, but know this, that according to Job 1:6, Ps. 82:6-7 and Deut. 32:8 (dead sea scroll version) they were divine beings, the exact same term was used, this is not speculation. There's a false interpretation which suggests those "sons of God" were saints who "call upon the name of the Lord" based on Gen. 5:26, but if so, why did they become so wicked that God had to wipe them all out with a global Flood? Besides, that was many generations ago before Noah, sainthood is not hereditary. These "sons of God" were also mentioned in 1 Pt. 3:18-20, where Jesus "went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah." That's talking about none other than the evil sons of God, who were the evil spirits in the NT. This is a consistent narrative throughout the whole bible.

Good scriptures but not related to the topic.
This is an ancient debate that has never had a possible resolution, because there is not enough information.

As far as the sons of God being Angels….
As far as the sons of God being bad or doing bad….
As far as the women being bad….
As far as Angels having sex and reproducing….
As far as the mighty men of renown being giants or bad….
As far as the flood being connected to any of this….
You have no scriptures that say any of this.
You have no scripture that defines exactly what the sons of God were / are.
We have no information about what the offspring of these marriages did to make them mighty men of renown.
We do not know what the families of these marriages was like.
Were any of the offspring female?

You can post general scriptures, you can post the Bible, but that is the point, none of the above is in the scriptures. If it were people would not have been debating this for thousands of years.

We can speculate that the marriages between the sons of God and women was wrong….and I think it is a possibility that it was wrong, but no scriptures to back up that speculation.
All we know is that they are some type of heavenly being.....that took women as wives....and their offspring were considered mighty men of renown.
We know that there were giants on earth before and after this event and continued to be throughout much of the Old Testament.

 

[Who Me]

Didn't the Midianites serve the same God we do?
Could you provide some scripture please.

Deut 32:
39 “See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

Job1:
21 and said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[a]
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
may the name of the Lord be praised

 

[eddif]

OK Ed.....
I can accept all of the above except this:
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE DUAL NATURE OF GOD.

God has ONE NATURE.
A divine nature.

I don't understand how He could possibly have 2 natures.
If you care to explain, OK.
The reformed speak of God as having 2 different WILLS,,,,
but I don't think I've ever heard that God has 2 NATURES.

Consider again:
His rod and staff comfort me.
This is King David seeking after God. Totally doing everything he should? No but he let God punish him when he sinned. He knew Gof could have mercy on him where his enemies would not show mercy,

The rod is discipline.

The staff had a crook for drawing us clos to him. Pull us out of danger

Or maybe just how God tried to help Israel (draw them close), but 400 years before Jesus (400 years of silence), he destroyed the bad people in Jerusalem. Ezekiel
Is the best place to see the wrath and mercy in the same book. I am open to either just shutting up here, or discussing it in another thread. Also, I can wait for a better time. I can not shove stuff into peoples heads. I do try to explain what I see. I see through a glass darkly, but I hope not to be a blind guide.

God chastens those he loves. He directs us in the correct path. He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure.
Title

GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?​

God’s love is directed toward helping us.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn’t the intended topic of the OP God’s character behind the “holocaust” of those Canaanites? I gave you a legit answer, that was a culling of monsters, not human beings made in God’s own image.

I went back and read it.
That's not really what this thread is about.

It's about reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT.

There's an apparent problem here and I was wondering how others have settled this problem.
(in their own mind).

 

[Grailhunter]

I went back and read it.
That's not really what this thread is about.

It's about reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT.

There's an apparent problem here and I was wondering how others have settled this problem.
(in their own mind).

Hello Darling.....
What do you think of this topic?

 

[sandyj]

Hello Darling.....
What do you think of this topic?

It is quite a lot to take in but very interesting. My mind is now thinking a lot faster for a Sunday

 

[GodsGrace]

But if the ant were capable of pondering the nature of it's own existence, and by extension, that of it's creator, would we fault it for doing so?

Absolutely not!
Who tells you that we're being faulted for trying to understand God?
I'm saying that we can not know Him fully.

God to us....
Is like us to an ant...

Maybe he does need us. We only assume that he doesn't because he's a divine being.

Why would an omnipotent being that has the capability of creating the universe need us?

That's just it though, there are no decisions to be made. Our free will is an illusion if God has perfect knowledge of every choice well ever make in this life. If there is no freedom to choice, how is it moral for God to judge us?

Bingo.

Riven, you're either getting me mixed up with a Calvinist on this forum...
OR You're becoming a bit of a calvinist yourself.

Think about the consequences of this. It means that the slaughter of six million Jews at the hands of the Nazis was part of God's unalterable plan. It's a lot like what we read about in the Old Testament.

I'm saying the opposite of what you're saying.
God didn't plan the holocaust and He didn't kill anybody in the OT.

I doubt Adam wanted to know anything. He seemed rather content for the most part until Eve showed up. Women have way of... complicating things. :tongue

Well, she did start it all, didn't she....
But which one of them caused the fall of humanity?

I think God should have laid it all out from the very beginning. Just why did he get so upset at mankind for wanting knowledge? Putting prefect knowledge aside, is it free will if God casts you out of the garden for exercising it? Or... Does he want you to be more like a robot?

Show me where I said....or where it is written... that God got upset at mankind for wanting knowledge.

I really think it would be good for us to go through this.
There's a lot here you don't seem to grasp.
I'm willing if you are.

Adam used his free will moral choice to eat of the FORBIDDEN FRUIT.
He disobeyed God.

God banished Adam from the Garden because he disobeyed God and was no longer fit to live there.
God cannot be with a disobedient person....The Holy Spirit will not live in a sinful temple.

So this free will God gave Adam TO EAT OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT, caused Adam and Eve to be removed from the Garden.

This shows that God does NOT want us to be like robots.

more later....

But what is giving your love to the enemy? What does that entail? Is it asking questions? Is it the pursuit of knowledge? If one isn't convinced that the bible is the word of God, is that choosing the enemy?


It kind of reminds me of that question, can God create a rock so heavy that even he can't lift? God's nature, at least in the Old Testament, is very human. He admits to being a jealous God, having fits of rage, and even regret.

If God has these human traits, especially regret, then it stands to reason that in a fit of rage, there's a chance he could go against his own divine nature. But then again, there's no judge above God to punish him for sinning, and the angels must obey, or they will be cast out of heaven.


I think it's likely that Yahweh was the god the Jews needed at the time. A war god that would smite their enemies and deliver them. People don't just discover gods and begin communicating with them. Just as God doesn't talk to human beings today, it is unlikely he talked to ancient man either.

As I said, I think most of it is mythology. We're you around during the time of Hector and Achilles, you would have had complete faith in the Greek gods. They too believed that the gods were to be feared and respected, and they very much believed that the stories of these gods were truly.

In a thousand years, assuming we don't join the 99% of all species that have ever lived on this planet in extinction, it is likely that the Christian God will be thought of in the same way as the Greek gods are today. That doesn't mean the Christian God does not exist, but how else do you expect a people to react to a god that prefers to remain hidden?


You could be right. Jesus certainly made an impact unlike anything we've ever seen in our history. For my own sake, and the sake of my fellow humans, I hope that the Christian God is more divine in nature than he's made out to be in the bible... and less blood thirsty.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Darling.....
What do you think of this topic?

The God of the OT and the God of the NT were the same in every way.
The problem is the revelation part....the revealing of God.
Man perceived Him in different ways.
Man attributed to Him laws and commands He did not execute.
But no one has to believe this. They're free to believe that Jesus misrepresented God
or that God changed.
Craig has had to explain this the way he did because he would have received much flack for stating anything else.
So we twist our brain to try to understand a God that either did not exist, or was misunderstood.
That's how I solved it for me.
I've asked and have been told this is not heretical.
Theologians do know that not all the 613 laws were given by God.