GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[GodsGrace]

But what is giving your love to the enemy? What does that entail? Is it asking questions? Is it the pursuit of knowledge? If one isn't convinced that the bible is the word of God, is that choosing the enemy?

PART II

Here's what choosing the enemy is:

There are only two choices to be made. No third choice. No inbetween choices.
A person is either serving God or they're serving satan.


What does it mean to serve satan? It simply means that you wish not to serve God, your creator.
Serving God means you acknowledge that He exists and you wish to live your life in a manner by which He would ber pleased.

I like to leave the bible out of this.
Christians are supposed to be worshipping God, not the bible.

It kind of reminds me of that question, can God create a rock so heavy that even he can't lift? God's nature, at least in the Old Testament, is very human. He admits to being a jealous God, having fits of rage, and even regret.

Right. And all this can be explained away in some way or other.
OR, persons were just seeing God as a human and attributing to Him those attributes.
I do believe God is a jealous God,,,,
but fits of rage?
regret?

God must have known He would regret something....
So then why cause it to come into being?

Sometimes I think we think too humanly and are not willing to acknowledge
a powerful, mighty God.

If God has these human traits, especially regret, then it stands to reason that in a fit of rage, there's a chance he could go against his own divine nature. But then again, there's no judge above God to punish him for sinning, and the angels must obey, or they will be cast out of heaven.

Right.
God cannot go against His nature.
If He did, how could we ever trust Him again?

I think it's likely that Yahweh was the god the Jews needed at the time. A war god that would smite their enemies and deliver them. People don't just discover gods and begin communicating with them. Just as God doesn't talk to human beings today, it is unlikely he talked to ancient man either.

Yes. It's the God they needed at the time....but He DID reveal Himself to the Hebrews otherwise we could ditch our bibles and forget about everything.
The bible is an inspired book....
Inspired by God.

As I said, I think most of it is mythology. We're you around during the time of Hector and Achilles, you would have had complete faith in the Greek gods. They too believed that the gods were to be feared and respected, and they very much believed that the stories of these gods were truly.

Sure.
Except those gods are gone,,,
and the Judeo-Christian God is here to stay.
A truth does not fade away.

In a thousand years, assuming we don't join the 99% of all species that have ever lived on this planet in extinction, it is likely that the Christian God will be thought of in the same way as the Greek gods are today. That doesn't mean the Christian God does not exist, but how else do you expect a people to react to a god that prefers to remain hidden?

How could God be hidden if Jesus said He was God and He lived among us as a human would live among ants to make them understand now to avoid falling into a ditch and dying.

You could be right. Jesus certainly made an impact unlike anything we've ever seen in our history. For my own sake, and the sake of my fellow humans, I hope that the Christian God is more divine in nature than he's made out to be in the bible... and less blood thirsty.

I believe He is.

 

[hawkman]

Isn’t the intended topic of the OP God’s character behind the “holocaust” of those Canaanites? I gave you a legit answer, that was a culling of monsters, not human beings made in God’s own image.

That is what I thought too . Why did God want a purge of the Canaanites . And you thought as I do . Genetics .

I went back and read it.
That's not really what this thread is about.

It's about reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT.

It is "seed" war that started in the Garden Of Eden . All the giants in the Promised Land were no accident , they are Satans best of his "seed" , Satan knew God's people were coming back to the promised land of Abraham .

Persons are rather disturbed that God ordered all men, women and CHILDREN, to be killed

The corrupt "seed" had to be eliminated .

There's an apparent problem here and I was wondering how others have settled this problem.
(in their own mind).

Once the corruption of God's creation by the "son's of God " is understood it is settled .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is no scripture to connect the mighty men of renown to the giants.

Why not? Same verse, Gen. 6:4. Mighty men are not the sons of God, but the giants.

The sons of God are some sort of divine being but nothing to say they were bad. Again you are back to finding were Angels reproduce. Find the scripture were Angels reproduce.

Septuagint translated benei Elohim as angels of God, those rabbis had more credibility than you a random guy on the internet.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I went back and read it.
That's not really what this thread is about.

It's about reconciling the God of the OT with the God of the NT.

Why not? You singled out this part about exterminating all Canaanites, and used that to question God’s character in the OT, and I’ve shown you how they’re reconciled- God is always the same, in the OT his enemies were the giants, in the NT the evil spirits, who had lost their former host bodies, which were the giants.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Good scriptures but not related to the topic.
This is an ancient debate that has never had a possible resolution, because there is not enough information.

As far as the sons of God being Angels….
As far as the sons of God being bad or doing bad….
As far as the women being bad….
As far as Angels having sex and reproducing….
As far as the mighty men of renown being giants or bad….
As far as the flood being connected to any of this….
You have no scriptures that say any of this.
You have no scripture that defines exactly what the sons of God were / are.
We have no information about what the offspring of these marriages did to make them mighty men of renown.
We do not know what the families of these marriages was like.
Were any of the offspring female?

You can post general scriptures, you can post the Bible, but that is the point, none of the above is in the scriptures. If it were people would not have been debating this for thousands of years.

We can speculate that the marriages between the sons of God and women was wrong….and I think it is a possibility that it was wrong, but no scriptures to back up that speculation.
All we know is that they are some type of heavenly being.....that took women as wives....and their offspring were considered mighty men of renown.
We know that there were giants on earth before and after this event and continued to be throughout much of the Old Testament.

maybe it’s a strength in Orwell’s 1984 dystopia, but not in the eyes of God. Paul write several times that he didn’t want the brethren to be ignorant (i.e. ROM. 11:25), but since you determine to be and keep denying clear biblical evidence, it’s your choice.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is what I thought too . Why did God want a purge of the Canaanites . And you thought as I do . Genetics .

I give credit to late Dr. Michael Heiser, from the Unseen Realm, his masterpiece of theology have I learnt from the giants, evil spirits and the Flood narrative. May he rest in peace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why not? You singled out this part about exterminating all Canaanites, and used that to question God’s character in the OT, and I’ve shown you how they’re reconciled- God is always the same, in the OT his enemies were the giants, in the NT the evil spirits, who had lost their former host bodies, which were the giants.

I would NEVER question God's character.

You can continue with your discussion with other members even though it's off-topic....
however, please do not put words into my mouth.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why not? Same verse, Gen. 6:4. Mighty men are not the sons of God, but the giants.

Septuagint translated benei Elohim as angels of God, those rabbis had more credibility than you a random guy on the internet.

YOU ARE BREAKING TOS RULES.
IF YOU WISH TO ENGAGE WITH ANOTHER MEMBER, PLEASE DO SO WITH RESPECT FOR THEIR OPINION.
1.1
1.3
1.5

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THEAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I would NEVER question God's character.

You can continue with your discussion with other members even though it's off-topic....
however, please do not put words into my mouth.
Thanks.

Then why did you bring up the “genocide”? What is to be “reconciled”?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then why did you bring up the “genocide”? What is to be “reconciled”?

As an example. The very one Craig debated.

The God of the OT and the God of the NT.
Are they different or the same?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

As an example. The very one Craig debated.

The God of the OT and the God of the NT.
Are they different or the same?

Monotheism means there's only one God. There're other deities in God's council, but there's no other God, only one Creator of the universe. You wouldn't have asked if there's a "different" God in the OT had you not questioned God's character due to the "disturbing" passage. If this still upsets you, the answer you seek is in Deut. 6:4.

 

[Grailhunter]

The God of the OT and the God of the NT were the same in every way.
The problem is the revelation part....the revealing of God.
Man perceived Him in different ways.
Man attributed to Him laws and commands He did not execute.
But no one has to believe this. They're free to believe that Jesus misrepresented God
or that God changed.
Craig has had to explain this the way he did because he would have received much flack for stating anything else.
So we twist our brain to try to understand a God that either did not exist, or was misunderstood.
That's how I solved it for me.
I've asked and have been told this is not heretical.
Theologians do know that not all the 613 laws were given by God.

People would like to soften the Old Testament.
It is an old concern and an old agreement, it was the dividing factor during the Ecumenical Councils which Emperor Constantine would not allow. So they came up with the one God formula to stop the arguments and enforced it upon pain of death or excommunication. Anyone preaching anything different would be labeled by the Church as a heretic and the Roman Empire would take it from there because heretics were considered enemies of the Empire.

The concerns were about the apparent differences in character between Yahweh and Yeshua. The Gnostics considered Yahweh somewhere between crazy and evil. And they believed that Yeshua was the Creator God and Almighty God and Supreme God, as in the only God.

Some see a Gnostic flavor in the Gospel of John for a couple reasons, one He seems to place Yeshua at the Creator God. And the Gnostics had connections to the Greeks and the Logos is a Greek belief that originated in the 6th century BC. It was a popular belief and one of the arguments at the Ecumenical Councils and again one of the arguments that the one God formula settled. If they are one person then there is no difference between them and all events were done by one person. Solved the arguments but violated over hundred scriptures.

As far as the cruelty of the Old Testament and the 613 Mosaic Laws, it is hard to logically soften it. The Mosaic Laws formed the Israelite / Jewish culture and traditions, some of which is not only a matter of scripture but also history.

Women were treated as property, the Mosaic Law regulated polygamy and fathers selling their daughters as sex slaves…concubinage. The Jews continued to practice polygamy and concubinage for a thousand years after the Biblical era. Some Christians did too….that is a longer story.

The Mosaic Laws regarding war where kill all that breaths and do not forget the male children. But if you see a virgin you like you can take her….that is called Rape….Then you have the Law about killing women that where raped….that goes back to considering them property….
if they were raped they were damaged goods. A woman's womb was to not receive seed from anyone but her husband….regardless of why….if a woman received the seed from another man, she was useless to her husband because she could not bear his children. Her womb was corrupted.

Now where do we go from here? Like said it is hard to soften all this. It is hard to explain all this. As Christians we are sinners and all that….but all that is a hundred times more fair and moral than the Old Testament. As Christians when we look back at the Old Testament, it is disgusting. Those that don’t think it is disgusting and like it, are usually messed up.

Now do we want to say that some of the Mosaic Law was written by men? A lot would be adamantly apposed to that, but Yeshua gave us a hint to this when He was having a Jewish discussion on divorce with some Jewish men that could have had 5 wives. Back then divorcing a Jewish wife was a good as a death sentence….very cruel and a lot of times it was just to make financial room for a younger wife

Well the point is that Yeshua said that….Moses permitted them to divorce their wives due to the hardness of their hearts. Now what is the implications of this….?

But other than that it is probably not advisable to Judge God. Not just a matter of respect, the real fact of the matter, God’s wisdom and awareness is nothing we can know or comprehend. What we understand and what He understands is worlds apart.

It is what it is and it was what it was…..and just leave it at that.....we will settle up in Heaven. Trust in Yahweh, love Him and worship Him because He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son to save us….His real Son.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

We can speculate that the marriages between the sons of God and women was wrong….and I think it is a possibility that it was wrong, but no scriptures to back up that speculation.
All we know is that they are some type of heavenly being.....that took women as wives....and their offspring were considered mighty men of renown.
We know that there were giants on earth before and after this event and continued to be throughout much of the Old Testament.

Tell you what, our only difference is that I read the "giants", "children (of the sons of God)" and "mighty men" as the exact same demonic group, while you read them as three separate groups, even though they're in the same verse in the same context. All of our difference diverge from there. Feel free to disagree, I respect your opinion, but at least I've got something to answer the OP's question, you've got nothing, you're just being antignostical.

 

[Grailhunter]

Tell you what, our only difference is that I read the "giants", "children (of the sons of God)" and "mighty men" as the exact same demonic group, while you read them as three separate groups, even though they're in the same verse in the same context. All of our difference diverge from there. Feel free to disagree, I respect your opinion, but at least I've got something to answer the OP's question, you've got nothing, you're just being antignostical.

Sometimes it is good to have scripture to support what you believe and none of that is in scripture. Sometimes the truth is, we do not know.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Sometimes it is good to have scripture to support what you believe and none of that is in scripture. Sometimes the truth is, we do not know.

Then you're echoing Pontius Pilate (Jn. 18:38), even though Jesus had taught that He IS the truth.

 

[Riven]

Absolutely not!
Who tells you that we're being faulted for trying to understand God?

There are Christians that are caught up on absolute obedience to God. I've been told more than once that my questioning is an act of rebellion. They kind of remind me of Vader...

Why would an omnipotent being that has the capability of creating the universe need us?

Because the universe isn't alive like we are.

Riven, you're either getting me mixed up with a Calvinist on this forum...
OR You're becoming a bit of a calvinist yourself.

Hmm... I certainly did not anticipate this. I'll admit, I don't even know what calvanists believe. :/

I'm saying the opposite of what you're saying.
God didn't plan the holocaust and He didn't kill anybody in the OT.

I see. Fair enough.

Well, she did start it all, didn't she....
But which one of them caused the fall of humanity?

God. He put the tree there knowing human curiosity would get the best of his new creation. We aren't the only ones either. Cats have none lives for a reason.

Show me where I said....or where it is written... that God got upset at mankind for wanting knowledge.

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, yes? It would appear he wished for mankind to be docile and childlike forever with him in his garden.

I really think it would be good for us to go through this.
There's a lot here you don't seem to grasp.
I'm willing if you are.

Of course.

Adam used his free will moral choice to eat of the FORBIDDEN FRUIT.
He disobeyed God.

God banished Adam from the Garden because he disobeyed God and was no longer fit to live there.
God cannot be with a disobedient person....The Holy Spirit will not live in a sinful temple.

The creator of the cosmos can't be in the same room as someone who disagrees with him?

So this free will God gave Adam TO EAT OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT, caused Adam and Eve to be removed from the Garden.

This shows that God does NOT want us to be like robots.

That would be true if God didn't already know Adam would eat from the tree before he put it there.

 

[GodsGrace]

Deut 32:
39 “See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

Job1:
21 and said:

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[a]
The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
may the name of the Lord be praised

You post some verses.
What do they mean?
It would be nice to know why you posted them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Consider again:
His rod and staff comfort me.
This is King David seeking after God. Totally doing everything he should? No but he let God punish him when he sinned. He knew Gof could have mercy on him where his enemies would not show mercy,

The rod is discipline.

The staff had a crook for drawing us clos to him. Pull us out of danger

Or maybe just how God tried to help Israel (draw them close), but 400 years before Jesus (400 years of silence), he destroyed the bad people in Jerusalem. Ezekiel
Is the best place to see the wrath and mercy in the same book. I am open to either just shutting up here, or discussing it in another thread. Also, I can wait for a better time. I can not shove stuff into peoples heads. I do try to explain what I see. I see through a glass darkly, but I hope not to be a blind guide.

God chastens those he loves. He directs us in the correct path. He works in us to will and do of his good pleasure.
Title

GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?​

God’s love is directed toward helping us.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Why do we need another thread?
We're talking....just continue.

I don't think the above answers my post to you.

 

[eddif]

Why do we need another thread?
We're talking....just continue.

I don't think the above answers my post to you.

Another thread was offered in case you needed to seperate thoughts,

Really I am not bothered by the differing levels.

Same God

Differing Covenants.


Abraham had differing offspring. Two women were two differing covenants. We do not need to choose one or the other. Jesus broke down the middle wall separating everyone who believes. Out of Jew and gentile is made one new man.

Old Testament was an external battle of physical rod and staff.

New Testament is one of Heart and Spiritual Mind - IMHO.

Seed = word of God
Word of God = Jesus
Jesus = life giving Spirit

Jesus works in us to will and do of God’s Good pleasure.

If Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, we just need to understand.

2 Chronicles 7:14 and following shows OT
1 Peter 2: 24 is NT

Not the only scriptures in Bible


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Another thread was offered in case you needed to seperate thoughts,

Really I am not bothered by the differing levels.

Same God

Differing Covenants.


Abraham had differing offspring. Two women were two differing covenants. We do not need to choose one or the other. Jesus broke down the middle wall separating everyone who believes. Out of Jew and gentile is made one new man.

Old Testament was an external battle of physical rod and staff.

New Testament is one of Heart and Spiritual Mind - IMHO.

Seed = word of God
Word of God = Jesus
Jesus = life giving Spirit

Jesus works in us to will and do of God’s Good pleasure.

If Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, we just need to understand.

2 Chronicles 7:14 and following shows OT
1 Peter 2: 24 is NT

Not the only scriptures in Bible


Mississippi redneck
eddif

Yes. Nice post.
But it's not telling me anything....