GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[GodsGrace]

I also used to think they were different until explored how God treats people generally. Its the same God. For example God did nothing toward Jezebel Himself but allowed someone to rise up to execute judgement on His behalf. Jehu. Justice against others comes from people God raise up. Aware or unaware they understand that they have a purpose subconsciously.

Very good point.
God does not punish our wrongdoings by sending arrows our way....
The arrows come our way because we did not obey God's Laws and this naturally will always cause problems/troubles for us.

 

[follower]

YHVH always with Perfect Wisdom Speaks the Truth.

It is men who corrupt things, and do not listen to Him nor agree with Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is being shown is how the seed of evildoers will be cut off. Like,

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psa.137:9 KJV

That's the children of the Lord vs. Babylons' children. (Or those who overcame evil by doing good vs. those who did evil.

Whoa!
That's not the God I know.
But if you're good with it, OK.
I'm not.

 

[follower]

It is plainly man's own thoughts and doctrines, religious or not, but never wise,
that disagrees with YHVH's Choices.

 

[electedbyhim]

Problem is....if God just does whatever He wants to do....
HE is perverting His own gospel.

God is love.
God loves His creation.

God can do whatever He wants to,,,but He cannot go against His own nature.
His commandment states DO NOT KILL.
So it's OK if God kills?
The very God that is teaching us not to?

Is God like the Pharisees when Jesus taught to:
DO AS THEY SAY
BUT NOT AS THEY DO
Matthew 23:3

This should help....

In Exodus 20:13 it says, “Thou shalt not kill,” yet God kills people in floods, famines, and has Israel go and kill entire people groups. Why the contradiction?

First of all, there is no contradiction. “Thou shalt not kill” is from the old King James Bible. Modern translations (ESV, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV) have it as “You shall not murder.” The word in Hebrew for “kill” here in Exodus 20:13 is תִּרְצָח (ratsach). It is translated into the English many different ways, depending on the context: “slayer 16, murderer 14, kill 5, murder 3, slain 3, manslayer 2, killing 1, slayer + 310 1, slayeth 1, death 1.” 1

Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. God has said, “You shall not murder,” not “You shall not kill.” After all, God says killing in self-defense is justifiable. Exodus 22:2, “If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.” If the mere killing of any kind was the issue, then why would God say killing in self-defense is permissible? He wouldn’t. This is another reason that modern translations say, “You shall not murder.”

Also, consider that the New Testament quotes Exodus 20:13 in Rom. 13:9 as “You shall not murder.” The word in Greek for murder here is φονεύω, (phoneuo). Matt. 10:28 says, “And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” The word kill here is apoktinumi. Let’s compare.

• Rom. 13:9, “murder” is φονεύω (phoneuō), commit murder, kill (Mt 5:21; 19:18; 23:31, 35; Mk 10:19; Lk 18:20; Ro 13:9; Jas 2:11; 4:2; 5:6) 2
• Matt. 10:28, “kill” is ἀποκτίννυμι (apoktinumi), to kill, slay 3

As you can see, different words are used for “murder” and “kill.” The Greek is more specific, and since the Greek New Testament quotes the Hebrew Old Testament, we can see that Exodus 20:13 is best translated as “You shall not murder.”

One final comment: since all people have sinned against God (Rom. 3:23) all people are under the judgment of God. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), so when God executes someone it is not murder, it is killing because it is a lawful taking of life. Remember, all people have sinned. Sin is the breaking of God’s law. Therefore, God’s execution is lawful.

• 1. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
• 2. Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) (DBLG 5839). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
• 3. Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Carm.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, all who die without faith in Jesus will be cast out of God's kingdom.

God bless,
Ted

You're reformed?

 

[GodsGrace]

This should help....

In Exodus 20:13 it says, “Thou shalt not kill,” yet God kills people in floods, famines, and has Israel go and kill entire people groups. Why the contradiction?

First of all, there is no contradiction. “Thou shalt not kill” is from the old King James Bible. Modern translations (ESV, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV) have it as “You shall not murder.” The word in Hebrew for “kill” here in Exodus 20:13 is תִּרְצָח (ratsach). It is translated into the English many different ways, depending on the context: “slayer 16, murderer 14, kill 5, murder 3, slain 3, manslayer 2, killing 1, slayer + 310 1, slayeth 1, death 1.” 1

Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. God has said, “You shall not murder,” not “You shall not kill.” After all, God says killing in self-defense is justifiable. Exodus 22:2, “If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account.” If the mere killing of any kind was the issue, then why would God say killing in self-defense is permissible? He wouldn’t. This is another reason that modern translations say, “You shall not murder.”

Also, consider that the New Testament quotes Exodus 20:13 in Rom. 13:9 as “You shall not murder.” The word in Greek for murder here is φονεύω, (phoneuo). Matt. 10:28 says, “And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” The word kill here is apoktinumi. Let’s compare.

• Rom. 13:9, “murder” is φονεύω (phoneuō), commit murder, kill (Mt 5:21; 19:18; 23:31, 35; Mk 10:19; Lk 18:20; Ro 13:9; Jas 2:11; 4:2; 5:6) 2
• Matt. 10:28, “kill” is ἀποκτίννυμι (apoktinumi), to kill, slay 3

As you can see, different words are used for “murder” and “kill.” The Greek is more specific, and since the Greek New Testament quotes the Hebrew Old Testament, we can see that Exodus 20:13 is best translated as “You shall not murder.”

One final comment: since all people have sinned against God (Rom. 3:23) all people are under the judgment of God. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), so when God executes someone it is not murder, it is killing because it is a lawful taking of life. Remember, all people have sinned. Sin is the breaking of God’s law. Therefore, God’s execution is lawful.

• 1. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
• 2. Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) (DBLG 5839). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
• 3. Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Carm.com

Carm.com???

A lesson on what a word means???

So God is KILLING but not MURDERING.

OK.
All is good then.
No problem.
The solution has arrived.

THINK SOME MORE ELECTED.

 

[electedbyhim]

Carm.com???

A lesson on what a word means???

So God is KILLING but not MURDERING.

OK.
All is good then.
No problem.
The solution has arrived.

THINK SOME MORE ELECTED.

You did not understand the article.

Perhaps you are overthinking.

 

[electedbyhim]

You're reformed?

What does that comment have to do with Reformed?

 

[Riven]

So if a 3 year old dies he goes to hell?

Yes, all who die without faith in Jesus will be cast out of God's kingdom.

 

[miamited]

You're reformed?

Hi GodsGrace

Not sure what that question means. I'm a believer in the truth of the Scriptures. I can't find anywhere that says there's an age of accountability for God's promise for babies, young children, the unborn. If you can, please show it to me. But I'm not going to allow my delicate sensibilities that I might have about how unfair I might feel it is that children aren't immediately whisked into the presence of God, establish what the Scriptures say.

So, what have you got? Show me where the Scriptures imply, infer or outright say that there is an age which a child must attain before the requirement of trusting in Jesus kicks in? What ya got?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Humblepie]

Ted,

Hi GodsGrace

Not sure what that question means. I'm a believer in the truth of the Scriptures. I can't find anywhere that says there's an age of accountability for God's promise for babies, young children, the unborn. If you can, please show it to me. But I'm not going to allow my delicate sensibilities that I might have about how unfair I might feel it is that children aren't immediately whisked into the presence of God, establish what the Scriptures say.

So, what have you got? Show me where the Scriptures imply, infer or outright say that there is an age which a child must attain before the requirement of trusting in Jesus kicks in? What ya got?

God bless,
Ted

I think this would qualify for a three year old Ted.
Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, ((((do by nature))) the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

[journeyman]

Whoa!
That's not the God I know.
But if you're good with it, OK.
I'm not.

Babylon is the mother of false religion. Killing false religion by preaching the gospel is the message of that passage.

 

[miamited]

Ted,


I think this would qualify for a three year old Ted.
Romans 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, ((((do by nature))) the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Hi Humblepie

Sorry, I don't see it.

How that passage of Scripture might be speaking of some age of accountability that God sets on a newborn human.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Humblepie]

Hi Humblepie

Sorry, I don't see it.

How that passage of Scripture might be speaking of some age of accountability that God sets on a newborn human.

God bless,
Ted

2 Samuel 12:21-23

21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? (((I shall go to him,))) but he shall not return to me.

David believed his child would be with God after death. That's close enough for me to agree that God's GRACE covers children.

 

[electedbyhim]

2 Samuel 12:21-23

21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? (((I shall go to him,))) but he shall not return to me.

David believed his child would be with God after death. That's close enough for me to agree that God's GRACE covers children.

This is truth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

How did you come to terms with this problem?

Those were offsprings of the Nephilim, aka giants. God only targeted a few specific Canaanite towns where giants were spotted. Back in Gen. 6, the primary purpose of the Flood was to wipe out the giants, which were the offspring of evil angels who overstepped their boundaries. Some remnants of those giants survived, however, as written in Gen. 6:4, and resurfaced in the land of Canaan, Goliath was one of the most prominent one of them, and the Israelites were ordered to finish the job. Consider it a culling operation.

There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (Gen. 6:4)

The angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day. (Jd. 1:6)

In the NT there're numerous mentions of "evil spirits", Jesus did several exorcisms to cast them out, this had become one of the most marvelous miracles he performed, even false believers followed suit - "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" These "evil spirits" were the evil angels, those giants used to be their earthly hosts - or incarnate. After those giants were wiped out, they became disembodied spirits wandering around the earth, and the chief among them was Satan. Till this day he's still roaming like a lion seeking to devour, until the Lord returns and has him chained in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. This is a hidden narrative of the evil spirits.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it. (Job 1:6-7)

 

[miamited]

David believed his child would be with God after death.

Hi Humblepie

Did David say that his child was with God? From what I'm reading, all he said was that he would go to be with him. Under the old covenant, that was the grave. There isn't any talk in the old covenant of anyone going to be with God. That wasn't part of the old covenant.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Riven]

There are different ways to explain what happened in the OT.
It does present some problems.
Like God just killing everyone on earth and saving a few on Noah's Ark.
Didn't He know from the start that this would eventually be the end result?

Yes. How could he not? Thats why I always go back to God's prefect knowledge. Because it presents real problems for the Christian message. If God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of knowledge, then why did he put it there? If he knows in advance what choices we will make in life, how can we be judged for making those choices?

The question I've been pondering recently is, does God have free will? If he has perfect knowledge of himself, past, present, and future, does he know what choices he will make in the future? If he does, how can he make different choices that he has not foreseen?

So, think of it this way....
The OT was written 4,000 years ago.
The Bronze Age.

Is everything in the OT a command from God?
I leave you to ponder this.

I believe most of it is Jewish mythology. Similar to Greek mythology.

You see.....we all have to come to our own conclusion.
One we could live with.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[Who Me]

I believe we must all come to terms with the Old Testament God.
Although the attributes are the same, God, in the OT, does seem to compromise His nature by ordering killings

All life is a gift from God, he creates life, he also ends all life.
There is no difference between someone dying in bed at a great age or in 5he prime of life violently. God gave and God took it away.
As for justice, the midianites incited the Israelites to desert God and were punished for that.

The incident with Balaam shows they knew about God, but did not serve him.