God's Conditional Grace

[Eventide]

And just so that E doesn't think that we've hijacked his thread.. I'll once again say that I believe the premise of the OP is spot on.. That regardless of the fact that the Lord asks us to DO certain things in order to receive His infinite blessings.. That in no way merits salvation, it is and always will be by grace through faith, and even that is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God.

 

[Eventide]

And even though I would disagree that water baptism is necessary for Gentiles to receive salvation, I would never teach or preach that to a new believer in Christ, I would rather error on the side of obedience than to tell anyone that they must do absolutely nothing in order to be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Believing is trusting in Him, and if the Lord commands baptism in His word, for the Jew and Gentile alike, then we should trust that He knows what He is asking of us.. Regardless of the fact that Gentiles have been shown to receive the Spirit before they were baptized in water.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: An argument from silence...

Ok, I can understand that.. now how come there isn't a single 'real' example of that taking place..?

There are some number of examples of the Holy Spirit falling on a large number of people.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit just come out and say it.. after all, it's really really simple imo as to what you're saying... that people are born of God, and then they believe... and it only applies to certain individuals who are given to believe... correct ?

Well 1 John 5:1 says that awfully clearly, so I'm unsure why that's an issue.

If you're looking for some of the rest, we might go to John 6, possibly John 6:37 to find people given to Christ by the Father.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit just say.. Abraham was born of God and was counted righteous, and he believed.. and then he was given a sign to show that he was born of God, and then believed..?

Why in the world would the simplicity of the gospel basically say the exact opposite..?

Hang on. You ask why God doesn't simplify the Gospel ... and why He does simplify the Gospel. The straightforward answer is that God is more complicated than we think, but embracing the solution to our sin is more understandable than understanding everything about it.

The Gospel is not an understanding, a "gnosis", in Greek. The Gospel is a reliance on Someone Else. To me the "gnosis" door had to be closed to us, or we would all become gnostics.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

There are some number of examples of the Holy Spirit falling on a large number of people.

Well then it should be really really easy to show us how rebirth comes before the sealing of the Holy Spirit.. please, maybe you'll actually DO IT.. I'm certain that ivdavid will not.

Well 1 John 5:1 says that awfully clearly, so I'm unsure why that's an issue.

I have no issue at all with 1 John 5:1 and imo it aligns perfectly with all of scripture.. and as mentioned, if that settles it your mind then so be it.

If you're looking for some of the rest, we might go to John 6, possibly John 6:37 to find people given to Christ by the Father.

No problem with those either.. anything specific you'd like to use that actually shows being born again comes before being sealed with the Spirit...?

Hang on. You ask why God doesn't simplify the Gospel ... and why He does simplify the Gospel. The straightforward answer is that God is more complicated than we think, but embracing the solution to our sin is more understandable than understanding everything about it.

Not according to Calvinism He isn't... He simply allows certain individuals to be reborn and then they believe.. that's about as shallow as it gets imo.

The Gospel is not an understanding, a "gnosis", in Greek. The Gospel is a reliance on Someone Else. To me the "gnosis" door had to be closed to us, or we would all become gnostics.

I know, it's so difficult to understand a man laying down His life for another.. ? ?

 

[heymikey80]

Re: An argument from silence...

Well then it should be really really easy to show us how rebirth comes before the sealing of the Holy Spirit.. please, maybe you'll actually DO IT.. I'm certain that ivdavid will not.

Hm, well that's a new question for me, and I'm unsure of the context; I may have to read more of the thread.

In short, being born in the Spirit is the equivalent of the Spirit's work in changing the heart, to a heart of faith. This heart change and spiritual rebirth appears in Rom 2:29 as a heart change, and John 3:3-8 as a spiritual birth and spiritual sight, and as a prerequisite to entering the Kingdom of God.

But the receipt of the Spirit is a different action. It's actually the outcome of faith, the outcome of a changed heart: "Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" Gal 3:2 "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13

No problem with those either.. anything specific you'd like to use that actually shows being born again comes before being sealed with the Spirit...?

As 1 John 5:1 shows that faith follows after (or at minimum is dependent on) the event of New Birth, then everything which follows after faith must be further downstream: including receiving the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2).

Not according to Calvinism He isn't... He simply allows certain individuals to be reborn and then they believe.. that's about as shallow as it gets imo.

Well, as I am admittedly a Calvinist, from my view I might accept that your view of Calvinism isn't that deep, and so it seems rather shallow, and I'd leave it at that. To me it's best to hear from you what you've learned and discovered, and humbly reform my understanding to comprehend your thoughts as well. That may not always come out as you wish, but it's done me some service in realizing the depth and height of knowledge of God is beyond me.

I know, it's so difficult to understand a man laying down His life for another.. ? ?

Yet that's not all of it. Why would someone need to? What's life in the first place? Where can I find sin? What is it? When you get into it, the real conditions leading to Christ's sacrifice are not that simple.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

Hm, well that's a new question for me, and I'm unsure of the context; I may have to read more of the thread.

Well, when you initially responded to this conversation it appeared to me that the claim ivdavid had posed was the basis for your joining the conversation.. if not, then by all means check it out.

In short, being born in the Spirit is the equivalent of the Spirit's work in changing the heart, to a heart of faith. This heart change and spiritual rebirth appears in Rom 2:29 as a heart change, and John 3:3-8 as a spiritual birth and spiritual sight, and as a prerequisite to entering the Kingdom of God.

And no doubt it all starts with the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, who convinces the WORLD of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

But the receipt of the Spirit is a different action. It's actually the outcome of faith, the outcome of a changed heart: "Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" Gal 3:2 "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13

Once again... I UNDERSTAND what you're saying.. ivdavid is saying the SAME THING, and yet hasn't provided one single example of rebirth preceeding being sealed with the Holy Spirit.. how about YOU.. are you also going to base your argument here on silence rather than biblical precedent ?

As 1 John 5:1 shows that faith follows after (or at minimum is dependent on) the event of New Birth, then everything which follows after faith must be further downstream: including receiving the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:2).

I'm sure it does in your opinion.. because you're a Calvinist.. and I have yet to see a single shred of biblical evidence to support this claim of yours.

Well, as I am admittedly a Calvinist, from my view I might accept that your view of Calvinism isn't that deep, and so it seems rather shallow, and I'd leave it at that. To me it's best to hear from you what you've learned and discovered, and humbly reform my understanding to comprehend your thoughts as well. That may not always come out as you wish, but it's done me some service in realizing the depth and height of knowledge of God is beyond me.

Well, you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong in saying that Calvinism can be summed up in God simply rebirthing certain individuals so that they believe on Him..

Yet that's not all of it. Why would someone need to? What's life in the first place? Where can I find sin? What is it? When you get into it, the real conditions leading to Christ's sacrifice are not that simple.

Well, if you're unaware of the blatant fact that we're all condemned and that death has passed upon all men because of sin, and that the Holy Spirit convinces the world of these enormous issues.. then I suppose you wouldn't understand anything at all about Christianity.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: An argument from silence...

Once again... I UNDERSTAND what you're saying.. ivdavid is saying the SAME THING, and yet hasn't provided one single example of rebirth preceeding being sealed with the Holy Spirit.. how about YOU.. are you also going to base your argument here on silence rather than biblical precedent ?

Seems to me it's every instance where the Holy Spirit follows faith.

Pentecost seems a reasonable example.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: An argument from silence...

Well, if you're unaware of the blatant fact that we're all condemned and that death has passed upon all men because of sin, and that the Holy Spirit convinces the world of these enormous issues.. then I suppose you wouldn't understand anything at all about Christianity.

Ah. So now I have to know more than the simple statement you asserted. So the Gospel requires I know more than the simple statement you asserted.

That was what I expected. The Gospel's actual demands for knowledge are greater than represented; but understanding how the Gospel itself works is much, much more knowledge than that, even.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: An argument from silence...

I'm sure it does in your opinion.. because you're a Calvinist.. and I have yet to see a single shred of biblical evidence to support this claim of yours.

Yet I'm calling your attention to Scripture -- Biblical evidence -- and you're claiming to accept what they say. They say New Birth precedes faith; they say faith results from a heart change; they say the Spirit of God changes hearts; they say the spiritual and not the fleshly bears the spiritual.

Are those in the flesh spiritually alive? Is everyone born of the Spirit?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence...

Hang on. You ask why God doesn't simplify the Gospel ... and why He does simplify the Gospel. The straightforward answer is that God is more complicated than we think, but embracing the solution to our sin is more understandable than understanding everything about it.

That is why Jesus spoke to us in parables....

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

Seems to me it's every instance where the Holy Spirit follows faith.

LOL.. no kidding, I agree that it does.. just like Eph 1:13 says... although ivdavid (and you) are saying that men are born again BEFORE that... ie, before the sealing of the Holy Spirit...

So the question is simple.. WHEN is the rebirth if it happens BEFORE the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and what SCRIPTURE do you base that upon..

Pentecost seems a reasonable example.

You mean the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit..? I'd hardly consider that the same as a NT Gentile believer.. unless of course you believe that you are one of the twelve Apostles..

Regardless of that though.. where does it teach that they were born again FIRST and then received the SPIRIT ?

I'm convinced this is an argument from silence, and not one shred of biblical evidence to back it up... because let's face it.. if you could, you would, in a heartbeat.. just to shut me up

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

Ah. So now I have to know more than the simple statement you asserted. So the Gospel requires I know more than the simple statement you asserted.

That was what I expected. The Gospel's actual demands for knowledge are greater than represented; but understanding how the Gospel itself works is much, much more knowledge than that, even.

Just because your testimony is that you could NOT believe... doesn't mandate that everyone can't believe the truth.

I would add that I had no clue about what happened to me when I was first born again... I knew that I was a sinner because the Holy Spirit convinced me of that.. and I knew that He was righteous because again, the Holy Spirit convinced me of that.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

They say New Birth precedes faith; they say faith results from a heart change; they say the Spirit of God changes hearts; they say the spiritual and not the fleshly bears the spiritual.

Not true mikey... Calvinists say that the new birth preceeds faith.. and it's an argument from silence so far as I can see.. because neither you nor ivdavid has produced one biblical precedent which teaches that..

 

[Eventide]

An argument from silence..

Anyone.. ?

Can anyone show us where in the bible it is taught that a person is BORN AGAIN BEFORE they have FAITH in God ?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

Anyone.. ?

Can anyone show us where in the bible it is taught that a person is BORN AGAIN BEFORE they have FAITH in God ?

I thought it was in Titus 3:5 but you and mikey proved that wrong! LOl...for the life of me I cannot find it...

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

I thought it was in Titus 3:5 but you and mikey proved that wrong! LOl...for the life of me I cannot find it...

I would say that Titus 3:5 speaks of how we are saved.. and has nothing at all to do with their argument from silence.. which is that a person is BORN AGAIN BEFORE they are SEALED with the SPIRIT of God.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

I would say that Titus 3:5 speaks of how we are saved.. and has nothing at all to do with their argument from silence.. which is that a person is BORN AGAIN BEFORE they are SEALED with the SPIRIT of God.

I know that you believe you can call on the holy spirit and be saved...like born again? But what does it take to be sealed with the Spirit of God?

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

I know that you believe you can call on the holy spirit and be saved...like born again? But what does it take to be sealed with the Spirit of God?

BA, imo it's the exact same thing.. iow being born again is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.. and that's when God baptizes us into that one body (the body of Christ) by the SAME SPIRIT. (1 Cor 12:13)..

And that is AFTER a person trusts in Christ, AFTER hearing the word of truth, and AFTER they BELIEVE. (Eph 1:13)

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

BA, imo it's the exact same thing.. iow being born again is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.. and that's when God baptizes us into that one body (the body of Christ) by the SAME SPIRIT. (1 Cor 12:13)..

And that is AFTER a person trusts in Christ, AFTER hearing the word of truth, and AFTER they BELIEVE. (Eph 1:13)

Then why don't you believe in water baptism?

 

[Mitspa]

Re: An argument from silence..

I know that you believe you can call on the holy spirit and be saved...like born again? But what does it take to be sealed with the Spirit of God?

Act 2:3

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.