God's Conditional Grace

[Eventide]

Fanaticism...

The church is the assembly,not the building but the people.

If you're saying that it's His church and not the place where you assemble and worship (not the people but the doctrines of that assembly), then I'm in full agreement with you.. if you're saying the other thing then imo you're just not there yet

I'm simply trying to be honest BA.. we're in Christ for maybe thirty, fourty years if we live that long.. and what I knew when I was first saved is nothing compared to how you're going to grow up into HIM in all things..

Just be sure that YOUR eyes are on HIM and not what your assembly might be preaching.. there's often a subtle difference between the words and doctrines of men as compared to the living and powerful word of God.. so once again, it's easy imo t get fanatical about things like WATER BAPTISM and completely MISS the BOAT..

We did this exercise once in a class where we were to count how many times a circle of children bounced a ball to another child.. we were told to FOCUS on that and try to COUNT the number of passes and to get it CORRECT..

After the exercise some of us had counted it correctly.. and many of us were close.. but what we all missed was a LARGE GORILLA walking past the children as we tried to correctly count the passes.

We missed a GORILLA walking by.. I could not believe it and thought that it was a trick, or another tape etc.. it wasn't.

The point should be obvious.. if you're going to focus on the doctrines of your assembly preaching water baptism as essential to salvation... then you're surely going to miss the LORD JESUS CHRIST walking right by..

 

[heymikey80]

Re: An argument from silence...

Not true mikey... Calvinists say that the new birth preceeds faith.. and it's an argument from silence so far as I can see.. because neither you nor ivdavid has produced one biblical precedent which teaches that..

1 John 5:1 "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

• That's a pervasive "whoever" -- we use the exact same term in John 3:16 to conclude that all those believing have eternal life. So this is a normative statement of theology.
• That's present tense "believing".
• But "born of God" is inherently prior.

The conclusion is quite clear: "born of God" had to precede "each & every one believing".

Now, my personal opinion is that they're immediate; that the one born of God is characterized by believing in God. But the dependency is simply, flatly stated by John. New Birth has preceded believing.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

1 John 5:1 "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

• That's a pervasive "whoever" -- we use the exact same term in John 3:16 to conclude that all those believing have eternal life. So this is a normative statement of theology.
• That's present tense "believing".
• But "born of God" is inherently prior.

The conclusion is quite clear: "born of God" had to precede "each & every one believing".

Now, my personal opinion is that they're immediate; that the one born of God is characterized by believing in God. But the dependency is simply, flatly stated by John. New Birth has preceded believing.

Well, thank you again for your opinion mikey... But you're still not getting it..

Show us ONE biblical example of that happening... A person being Born of God and then believing.

Surely if that were true, then the Lord would have examples for us.

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Fanaticism...

If you're saying that it's His church and not the place where you assemble and worship (not the people but the doctrines of that assembly), then I'm in full agreement with you.. if you're saying the other thing then imo you're just not there yet

I'm simply trying to be honest BA.. we're in Christ for maybe thirty, fourty years if we live that long.. and what I knew when I was first saved is nothing compared to how you're going to grow up into HIM in all things..

Just be sure that YOUR eyes are on HIM and not what your assembly might be preaching.. there's often a subtle difference between the words and doctrines of men as compared to the living and powerful word of God.. so once again, it's easy imo t get fanatical about things like WATER BAPTISM and completely MISS the BOAT..

We did this exercise once in a class where we were to count how many times a circle of children bounced a ball to another child.. we were told to FOCUS on that and try to COUNT the number of passes and to get it CORRECT..

After the exercise some of us had counted it correctly.. and many of us were close.. but what we all missed was a LARGE GORILLA walking past the children as we tried to correctly count the passes.

We missed a GORILLA walking by.. I could not believe it and thought that it was a trick, or another tape etc.. it wasn't.

The point should be obvious.. if you're going to focus on the doctrines of your assembly preaching water baptism as essential to salvation... then you're surely going to miss the LORD JESUS CHRIST walking right by..

Well said!

 

[ivdavid]

Anyone.. ?

Can anyone show us where in the bible it is taught that a person is BORN AGAIN BEFORE they have FAITH in God ?

Fallacy of Simple Evasion - changing the subject for no apparent reason, or bypassing a critical issue, diverts attention from the issues central to the argument.

Let's analyze the facts -

I haven't seen anything remotely close to you supporting your claim that being born again preceeds the sealing of the Spirit

Why don't you first point out what point of the argument you consider false in post#315 before asserting this?

Why don't you you show us how rebirth comes before regeneration..? Oh right, you did and I missed it.

1) You start off by asserting that I did not show anything supporting my claim - the claim that man being born in the spirit from the flesh precedes the sealing of the Spirit.
2) I point you to post#315 where I have done just that - backed my claim by giving my reasons for it based solely on Scripture.
3) You respond again with a repetition of point 1), instead of engaging my arguments in point 2). So from 3) to 1) in a loop while evading 2) - fallacy of simple evasion? I don't know for sure how you've reasoned this to yourself - hence the request to you to clarify.

In case you have perchance, accidentally, misconstrued me to be presenting a tit-for-tat argument in post#315 - ie an argument which is irrelevant to your question but which I'm posing as distraction to cover my inability to answer directly and which when you don't yourself answer I could hold up as justification for my not answering - well, if in case you have mistaken my post#315 for such an argument, then it befalls me to clarify that and show you why that's not the case -

Your requirement -
"[Show] anything remotely close to you supporting your claim that being born again preceeds the sealing of the Spirit"
My Conclusion in post#315 -
"And since the Sealing occurs after faith, this rebirth in the spirit from the flesh being concluded as occurring before faith - is definitely before the final sealing."

See how your requirement has been met in post#315 ? I have not stated Rom 8:7-9 as some peripheral argument; I have given you Rom 8:7-9 as the very basis on which I conclude that being born in the spirit from the flesh precedes faith and the final sealing of the Spirit. Also see in that post#315 how this conclusion is preceded by certain facts and inferences - and the facts are derived solely from Scripture. If anything, you could have an issue with the inferences - which I've asked you to engage - and which for some reason, you have deferred.

So try to engage the argument in post#315, for that and every Scripture that derides the flesh(1 Cor 1:29) are the basis on which this doctrinal belief is derived from. Another way of looking at it is - if what you say is true, if your claim that Abraham and all the OT saints died in the flesh and not in the spirit is true - then we have to Either infer that Abraham et al. did no good works in the flesh Or we are to infer that good works can come out of the flesh - which is it? Gal 5:17 is still left unaddressed as a core point in this regard - how can the flesh that lusteth against the Spirit attend to the things of the Spirit, such as faith, repentance etc.? Seems like you've got a couple odd points more to go before you can start calling for someone to pick up the proverbial gauntlet.

 

[ivdavid]

Well, thank you again for your opinion mikey... But you're still not getting it..
Show us ONE biblical example of that happening... A person being Born of God and then believing.
Surely if that were true, then the Lord would have examples for us.

Equivocation ("to call by the same name") is classified as both a formal and informal logical fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).

Are you equivocating between "born of God" and "sealed with the Spirit" here?
Eventide - "Regeneration is being born again, it is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.. They're the exact same thing IMO."
By your own admission, you have conceded that it is your opinion. When asked on what basis you equated "being born again" with "being sealed with the Spirit" in Tit 3:5, you stated it was your opinion and not an undeniable fact(post#314). Also, as previously mentioned, you have thus far only provided facts about how faith precedes the "sealing of the Spirit" - you are yet to provide Scriptural references as to how faith precedes "being born again" - which you have inferred implicitly on the yet to be substantiated opinion that "being born again"="being sealed with the Spirit".

So, when you ask for "ONE biblical example of that happening... A person being Born of God and then believing", doesn't the same apply to you - for you too would have to show "ONE biblical example of a person believing and then being Born of God" - where Either you prove as undeniable fact that "born again"="sealed with the Spirit" Or you concede your position is as suspect or sound as the other.

Also, I've already stated the futility of such an argument - can a modalist then conclude his beliefs as true just because there isn't any direct example demonstrating the exact nature and dynamics of the Trinity?

 

[Eventide]

An argument from silence...

Ivdavid,

I don't know what else to say..

I have told you clearly that I believe that regeneration is being born again, that it is circumcision of the heart.. That it is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..

I have given you biblical examples and precedents such as Eph 1:13, and Romans 4 where it speaks of Abraham being given the sign of circumcision.. I have mentioned that Mary is also a wondrous illustration of being born again..

You have claimed that the new birth (being born again) comes BEFORE faith and yet haven't given one single example of that happening in the scriptures.

What more is there to say.. Your argument is obviously one from silence and no has biblical support whatsoever...

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence...

Ivdavid,

I don't know what else to say..

I have told you clearly that I believe that regeneration is being born again, that it is circumcision of the heart.. That it is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..

I have given you biblical examples and precedents such as Eph 1:13, and Romans 4 where it speaks of Abraham being given the sign of circumcision.. I have mentioned that Mary is also a wondrous illustration of being born again..

You have claimed that the new birth (being born again) comes BEFORE faith and yet haven't given one single example of that happening in the scriptures.

What more is there to say.. Your argument is obviously one from silence and no has biblical support whatsoever...

Titus 3:5

Hey Eventide....here is my 2 cents for whatever it is worth...
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit
Moved by his own mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. There are two reasons of the word righteousness in the Scriptures. Here the washing or bath of regeneration refers to baptism. It means the washing or bath connected with regeneration. Here the righteousness which we did that did not bring salvation is placed in contrast with baptism. When Jesus came to John to be baptized of him, "John would have hindered him.... but Jesus answering said unto him,

Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:14, 15), making baptism a part of righteousness. There is a righteousness of God, and there is a righteousness that comes through the ways and works of man. Baptism is a part of God's way of making man righteous. So is a renewing of the Holy Spirit. The Jews were not saved on account of any righteousness they had done before Christ came to merit it but moved by his own mercy to men he saved them through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. He first sent his Spirit to renew man. The Spirit came to the apostles, through them preached Christ to the world, produced faith, changed the heart, directed the life anew, and the heart renewed, the person was baptized into Christ, put off the old man of sin now dead, was buried with him in Christ, washed away his sins, and arose to a new life in Jesus Christ. The relation of these facts to each other and the connection of each of them to the remission of sins, entrance into the name of Christ, God, and salvation by the same word, settle beyond dispute that they are for the same end or thing. Man must believe into Christ, but his believing carries him through repentance and baptism before he is in Christ. Repentance comes from faith, but it leads through baptism to the remission of sins. Faith that stops short of repentance and baptism does not carry the believer into Christ. These facts settle the office of faith, repentance, and baptism.

 

[farouk]

Titus 3.5 is a great verse; it often comes to mind.

 

[Eventide]

The old and the new...

Water baptism is certainly wondrous to say the least.. because it is a conscious decision on the part of the believer to enter into death and be risen with Christ into the newness of His justified life.

And this is exactly what Paul teaches the church of God concerning what literally happened within us, within our earthen vessel.. When Christ was born in us by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit.

IMO our baptism in water didn't make that happen, it teaches us and makes us conscious of what actually happened.

The weird thing about this is that IMO it seems to take years to fully understand this.. That I am dead, crucified with Christ, and nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me.

I think the reason for that is because we still carry this body of death with us.. It constantly wars against the Spirit of Christ in us.. But in a positional sense, the matter is already and for ever settled in heaven...

That's certainly our hope of glory... Not Christ and me, but rather Christ in me.. For He alone is the way, the truth, and the justification of life.

 

[rrowell]

Re: The old and the new...

Water baptism is certainly wondrous to say the least.. because it is a conscious decision on the part of the believer to enter into death and be risen with Christ into the newness of His justified life.

Especially one cannot get saved, and has not been saved without it:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[ivdavid]

I have told you clearly that I believe that regeneration is being born again, that it is circumcision of the heart.. That it is being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..

Yes, you have told us what you believe. But as your argument goes - does one's believing something make it absolutely true?

Your belief equates without any difference, "being born again" and "circumcision of the heart/sealing with the Spirit". Where have you provided Biblical evidence that the two are the same? In fact, I'd press for the argument that the opposite is true - seen from the physical foreshadow of spiritual things to come. Was not a jew born first, and then circumcised on the 8th day as the seal of that covenant? And why would God institute such an ordinance if not to teach among other things, the actual spiritual significance that we are born again and then we have the foreskin of our hearts spiritually circumcised as the seal of the New Covenant.

I have given you biblical examples and precedents such as Eph 1:13, and Romans 4 where it speaks of Abraham being given the sign of circumcision..

Eph 1:13 states that faith precedes the sealing of the Spirit - where does it state that "being born again"="sealing of the Spirit" - and where does it state that faith precedes "being born again"?

Romans 4 states that Abraham was given the sign of circumcision - where does it say that this sign of circumcision is ALSO the sign of being being born again? According to analogous pattern, was not Abraham already born and did he not already have faith before being circumcised?

1. you present the FACT based on Biblical evidence that faith precedes "spiritual circumcision/sealing of the Spirit".
2. you assert the OPINION that "being born again" = "spiritual circumcision/sealing of the Spirit".
3. And you infer the CONCLUSION that faith precedes "being born again" based on Biblical evidence.

You do realize your conclusion is valid only upon establishing your opinions as facts, don't you? Which is why I stated your position is as sound or as suspect as any other. On the other hand, you have kept evading the facts and inferences presented to you - any specific reason for doing so?

I have mentioned that Mary is also a wondrous illustration of being born again..

Was Mary in the flesh or in the spirit while she attended to the things of the Spirit(1 Cor 2:14)? And as illustrations go, Lazarus had to first be given new life before he could hear God's word and obey it.

Well, beyond all these individual points, looking also at the larger picture - Why do we need to be in the spirit and not in the flesh - Why do we need to have a new heart - Why must we be made a new creature in the inner man? Is it not because the flesh, the natural hardened heart and the outer man are unable to attend to the things of God? What is your belief on this? As already asked, did Abraham and the OT saints do good works in the flesh - or did they not do any good works?

You have claimed that the new birth (being born again) comes BEFORE faith and yet haven't given one single example of that happening in the scriptures.

Neither have you of the converse - you have only inferred it on the basis of an opinion that "the new birth" = "circumcision/sealing of the Spirit", which in turn you are to give Biblical evidence of. And what I have provided as way of implicit but undeniable and conclusive Scriptural evidence (post#315), you choose to evade. I shall refrain from jumping to conclusions before they are established, but your delay in dealing with my argument only inclines me further to believe that you've conceded my argument to be sound - and the only way to prove otherwise is by showing how.

What more is there to say.. Your argument is obviously one from silence and no has biblical support whatsoever...

Well, you haven't said anything on post#315 yet...if it's time you need, to make up your mind over it, then why not say so instead of resorting to what clearly seems to be circular reasoning (unless you clarify otherwise)?

Direct question : Will you engage the argument in post#315 which answers your question to show how being born in the spirit from the flesh precedes faith and Spiritual circumcision/sealing? Yes/No.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, you have told us what you believe. But as your argument goes - does one's believing something make it absolutely true?

Absolutely NOT ivdavid.. Just as what you believe also does not make it true.

I would bet the difference though is that you can't even begin to fathom that you could be wrong whereas I am certain that I could be..

Prove me wrong ivdavid.. Could YOU be wrong about your belief that being born again comes before being sealed with the Spirit ?

Never mind, I'm also 100% convinced that you won't answer that.. And I'll add that I don't ever recall conversing with a more disingenuous person than you..

 

[Eventide]

Re: The old and the new...

Especially one cannot get saved, and has not been saved without it:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Do you also believe that people will burn in hell forever because they are not baptized in water ?

I know that's what the Church of Christ taught when I was there.. How about your assembly..?

 

[rrowell]

Re: The old and the new...

Do you also believe that people will burn in hell forever because they are not baptized in water ?

I know that's what the Church of Christ taught when I was there.. How about your assembly..?

I believe the Bible means what it says, and says what it means:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

"He that believeth" AND "is baptized" "shall be saved" is the same as "He that does not believeth AND is not baptized, "shall NOT be saved".

 

[Eventide]

Re: The old and the new...

I believe the Bible means what it says, and says what it means:

I can understand that, and I do as well.

Although answering the question tends to shed some light on the SPIRIT of the matter, if you know what I mean.

 

[rrowell]

Re: The old and the new...

I can understand that, and I do as well.

Although answering the question tends to shed some light on the SPIRIT of the matter, if you know what I mean.

Yes it does, one of us believes it requires "water baptism" to receive the Gift, the other does not.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The old and the new...

Yes it does, one of us believes it requires "water baptism" to receive the Gift, the other does not.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Who is Peter the Apostle to.. ?

The Circumcision (Jews), or Gentiles ?

See any difference..? If not then WHY NOT...

If there's no difference, then WHY raise up Paul to be the Apostle to the GENTILES.. if there's no difference ?

How in the world could the Apostle Paul (the Apostle to the GENTILES) preach that Christ did not send him to baptize if that is essential to being saved.. and furthermore, it would be impossible for him to say these words to the Jailor, if they were not true.

What must I do to be SAVED ?

a) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT BE SAVED.

b) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized in water

Careful.. there's a subtle difference..

 

[Eventide]

the spirit of error..

And I would imagine your answer to the original question is yes.. that you see men burning in hell for ever for not being baptized in water.

IMO that says more than anything else.

 

[rrowell]

Re: the spirit of error..

And I would imagine your answer to the original question is yes.. that you see men burning in hell for ever for not being baptized in water.

IMO that says more than anything else.

My answer is the same as what the Bible says, "YES"