God's Conditional Grace

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

Act 2:3

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Okay, you are agreeing...

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

Then why don't you believe in water baptism?

To be specific, I do not believe that water baptism is necessary for Gentiles to receive salvation. The book of Acts shows us clearly that Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water.. Whereas the same book shows Israelites receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit after they were baptized in water.

It's an important distinction IMO.. And the gospel was given to Israel first.. And after their continued rejection of the Gospel, the Lord raised up Paul to bring the gospel to the GENTILES.

As mentioned, I would rather error on the side of obedience to the word of God because when a person is first saved, they generally have no idea of this distinction between Israel and the church of God.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

To be specific, I do not believe that water baptism is necessary for Gentiles to receive salvation. The book of Acts shows us clearly that Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water.. Whereas the same book shows Israelites receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit after they were baptized in water.

It's an important distinction IMO.. And the gospel was given to Israel first.. And after their continued rejection of the Gospel, the Lord raised up Paul to bring the gospel to the GENTILES.

As mentioned, I would rather error on the side of obedience to the word of God because when a person is first saved, they generally have no idea of this distinction between Israel and the church of God.

Ok...Then please explain Acts 19:5 (KJV)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

Ok...Then please explain Acts 19:5 (KJV)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I just explained how that Gentiles received the Holy Spirit Before they were baptized in water.. Did you read that or just ignore it as if it's not pertinent to anything..?

Do you deny that biblical fact ?

I have no problem with water baptism except when people get fanatical about it and claim that their church is the one true church etc.. And if you're not baptized in their assembly then it doesn't count.

God alone places believers into Christ.. Not your assembly or mine.. And I have witnessed many baptisms and not a single one saved anyone as far as I'm concerned.. They were already born again and in Christ when they were baptized in water.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

I just explained how that Gentiles received the Holy Spirit Before they were baptized in water.. Did you read that or just ignore it as if it's not pertinent to anything..?

Do you deny that biblical fact ?

I have no problem with water baptism except when people get fanatical about it and claim that their church is the one true church etc.. And if you're not baptized in their assembly then it doesn't count.

God alone places believers into Christ.. Not your assembly or mine.. And I have witnessed many baptisms and not a single one saved anyone as far as I'm concerned.. They were already born again and in Christ when they were baptized in water.

Right, you should not have a problem with water baptism when it is mandatory for salvation...Romans 6:3 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

I just explained how that Gentiles received the Holy Spirit Before they were baptized in water.. Did you read that or just ignore it as if it's not pertinent to anything..?

Do you deny that biblical fact ?

I have no problem with water baptism except when people get fanatical about it and claim that their church is the one true church etc.. And if you're not baptized in their assembly then it doesn't count.

God alone places believers into Christ.. Not your assembly or mine.. And I have witnessed many baptisms and not a single one saved anyone as far as I'm concerned.. They were already born again and in Christ when they were baptized in water.

You must be baptized, not my words. but Jesus.

 

[Eventide]

Earthly things and Heavenly things..

Sometimes I think that God did this for Israelites because they were and are so used to DOING things for God.. to them pertain ALL of the ORDINANCES.. including baptisms.

Gentiles on the other hand are without the Law of Moses and while we are certainly still baptized (in water), we were baptized into CHRIST by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit, after we trusted in Christ, after we HEARD the word of TRUTH and AFTER we BELIEVED..

Paul is about as specific as one can be here and it's no mistake that water baptism isn't included..

The sooner you see a distinction between the Israel of God (an earthly entity with many earthly ordinances) and the church of God (a heavenly entity with our citizenship being IN HEAVEN, and more importantly, IN CHRIST), you'll have a better understanding of scripture imo.

In fact Paul (the Apostle to the GENTILES) warns us to not be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to Israel.. and how that nation is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

For when He comes.. He shall deliver Jacob (Israel) in their deepest time of trouble.. the goodness of God is going to lead them to repentance and they shall call upon the name of the LORD and be saved..

.02

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

Right, you should not have a problem with water baptism when it is mandatory for salvation...Romans 6:3 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

That's your opinion and what I suspect your one true church might be teaching you..

One thing I'm thankful for is the correction a brother once gave me concerning fanaticism.. it's SO EASY to get bogged down with DOCTRINES of baptisms and loose sight of the fact that God alone is doing the saving.. each and every time, all of the time.. He alone is building His church and its basis is confessing Jesus Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: Earthly things and Heavenly things..

Sometimes I think that God did this for Israelites because they were and are so used to DOING things for God.. to them pertain ALL of the ORDINANCES.. including baptisms.

Gentiles on the other hand are without the Law of Moses and while we are certainly still baptized (in water), we were baptized into CHRIST by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit, after we trusted in Christ, after we HEARD the word of TRUTH and AFTER we BELIEVED..

Paul is about as specific as one can be here and it's no mistake that water baptism isn't included..

The sooner you see a distinction between the Israel of God (an earthly entity with many earthly ordinances) and the church of God (a heavenly entity with our citizenship being IN HEAVEN, and more importantly, IN CHRIST), you'll have a better understanding of scripture imo.

In fact Paul (the Apostle to the GENTILES) warns us to not be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to Israel.. and how that nation is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

For when He comes.. He shall deliver Jacob (Israel) in their deepest time of trouble.. the goodness of God is going to lead them to repentance and they shall call upon the name of the LORD and be saved..

.02

Then why was Jesus baptized?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

That's your opinion and what I suspect your one true church might be teaching you..

One thing I'm thankful for is the correction a brother once gave me concerning fanaticism.. it's SO EASY to get bogged down with DOCTRINES of baptisms and loose sight of the fact that God alone is doing the saving.. each and every time, all of the time.. He alone is building His church and it's basis is confessing Jesus Christ as LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

What is the one true church?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

What is the one true church?

Eventide, you are my brother...but you have to admit there is one church and that is the church of Christ.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

You must be baptized, not my words. but Jesus.

I was baptized.. twice even..

Once by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13), and then afterwards in water..

There's no doubt in my mind which one saved me..

For I baptize you with water for the remission of sins.. but He that comes after me shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost..

Now you tell me.. which baptism do you believe is the one which SAVED me..?

 

[Eventide]

The marriage of the Lamb to His wife...

What is the one true church?

If you don't know you probably will someday.. if you are born again.

The church of God is a heavenly entity which consists of every person who has trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.. and has confessed Jesus of Nazareth as LORD.. ever since the Holy Ghost was sent at Pentecost..

Christ is still building it.. today.. and when He is finished building it He shall present it to HIMSELF as a GLORIOUS church, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.. and the most staggering truth concerning the church of God is that it's His WIFE to be..

We can't even begin to understand the depths of that..

 

[BornAgain]

Re: The marriage of the Lamb to His wife...

If you don't know you probably will someday.. if you are born again.

The church of God is a heavenly entity which consists of every person who has trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.. and has confessed Jesus of Nazareth as LORD.. ever since the Holy Ghost was sent at Pentecost..

Christ is still building it.. today.. and when He is finished building it He shall present it to HIMSELF as a GLORIOUS church, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.. and the most staggering truth concerning the church of God is that it's His WIFE to be..

We can't even begin to understand the depths of that..

I just believe in the lord Jesus Christ....he has been my rock, the one that I can go to in times of distress, everything....I love Him with all of my heart and everything I know is good.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Earthly things and Heavenly things..

Then why was Jesus baptized?

If you read His word then you should know..

To fulfill all RIGHTEOUSNESS..

He being God manifest in the flesh.. took the absolute lowest place amongst His creation.. even unto the death of the cross.. the most humiliating and torturous form of punishment perhaps ever known to man.. He was made a curse for US.. for His own creatures.. He alone bore OUR SINS in His own body on that tree..

That's another thing we'll never be able to fully comprehend.. we know it's the greatest love ever known to these finite little hearts and minds of ours.

To WIN our hearts and minds to His Father.. the one true God.

It's the greatest story ever told.. and foretold countless times before it ever came to pass.. for in the volume of the book it is written of ME saith the LORD..

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence..

Eventide, you are my brother...but you have to admit there is one church and that is the church of Christ.

If you're speaking of where you assemble, and what your assembly teaches. then IMO that simply shows that you have no understanding whatsoever as to what HIS CHURCH actually is..

I was there for a while and I'm thankful for that too.. although it actually was all about that church and very little about the builder of it.. the Lord Jesus Christ.. the ONE who inhabits ETERNITY..

Think about it.. and more importantly pray about it.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

If you're speaking of where you assemble, and what your assembly teaches. then IMO that simply shows that you have no understanding whatsoever as to what HIS CHURCH actually is..

I was there for a while and I'm thankful for that too.. although it actually was all about that church and very little about the builder of it.. the Lord Jesus Christ.. the ONE who inhabits ETERNITY..

Think about it.. and more importantly pray about it.

No, Eventide, there is but one church. That is the church of Christ...many will be persecuted by this but Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build my church.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

If you're speaking of where you assemble, and what your assembly teaches. then IMO that simply shows that you have no understanding whatsoever as to what HIS CHURCH actually is..

I was there for a while and I'm thankful for that too.. although it actually was all about that church and very little about the builder of it.. the Lord Jesus Christ.. the ONE who inhabits ETERNITY..

Think about it.. and more importantly pray about it.

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: An argument from silence..

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The church is the assembly,not the building but the people.

 

[Eventide]

Heavenly places in Christ Jesus our LORD..

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I agree and know that there is ONE Church.. ONE BODY of Christ which is the church.. although if you're being taught that it's the place where you assemble and because they got it all right in their doctrines..

Then you're missing the forest for the trees imo and missing out on the most staggering and mind boggling truth concerning 'what' the church of God actually is..

The Catholic church believes the same thing.. and it's all earthly.. amillennialism rules the day here in 2012.. they have billions of dollars in worldly assets and imo completely miss the enormity of our citizenship which is in HEAVEN, even seated with CHRIST in heavenly places..

Because at the the end of the day.. we're DEAD and our LIFE is hid IN CHRIST with God.. who IS our LIFE..